lorem ipsum

Transcript

[Music]

Abby: Welcome to Matters of Experience, a podcast produced by Lorem Ipsum, an experience design company headquartered in New York City. Our podcast explores the creativity, innovation, and psychology driving designed experiences and encounters. If you’re new to the show, welcome and to our regular listeners, thank you for tuning in and supporting our conversation. My name is Abigail Honor.

Brenda: And I’m Brenda Cowan.

Abby: So today, Brenda, we’re focusing on the future of our profession, a pretty big topic, but who better to talk about this ambitious topic than Gretchen Coss. Gretchen is the Senior Vice President of Strategic Partnerships at G&A, formerly known as Gallagher and Associates. She’s a designer with extensive experience in global brand management, experience design, and placemaking. A passionate educator and an active industry leader serving on the board of the Society for Experiential Graphic Design, and as their past president. And previously, Gretchen was the adjunct professor for the Master of Exhibition Design at the Corcoran College of Art and Design, where she won a faculty award for exemplifying innovative teaching techniques. Gretchen, a big welcome to the show.

Gretchen: Thank you. What a nice intro. Thank you very much.

Brenda: Gretchen, your work centers on cultivating and supporting new and emerging professionals. So as a part of your 30 plus years in museums and experience design work, you’ve always been a mentor and a leader to the next generation and most recently with your work at G&A, you’ve been developing a whole arm of the firm for education. So, can you tell us why? Why is it that educating the next generation has become a focus for you?

Gretchen: What we do is so hard to understand as it is, right. It is so incredibly energizing to sit in a room of smart young designers who are just exploring and figuring out who they are, what they love, why they’re passionate about this and see if you can spark that flame and learn from them. Every single time I walk out of one of these workshops or one of the classes, I feel like I learn something from them, and they really push me.

Abby: Well, I remember when I was at university, there just were no courses that could have trained me in our profession at all and not even any workshops I could go to. So, seeing the plethora that have really sprung up over the last decade and the change that’s happened has been incredible because this is the next generation. And so, tell us about some of the initiatives you started up and why they seem to be working.

Gretchen: I’m really lucky because I have the backing of our firm sort of following me down this path and realizing that really as part of our corporate responsibility, that building of the next generation, trying to diversify the field, looking at how we can expose some of these students earlier is something that they feel really strongly about.

So, I actually started some of what I’m doing from professional education and doing workshops that were about how we work, why we do things a certain way, what are our responsibilities as the experiential and interpretive designers as opposed to an architect or a specialty lighting designer, and how do we actually cross over into those sort of different lenses that we work from. And the more we educate each other and our clients, hopefully the easier it gets to do our job.

That then sort of crosses over with the in-class work that Brenda and Christina and I have done over the past decade or more, and some project based learning where we bring the students to our client, we introduce them to the clients, and then we let them do a project that not only has check points with Brenda, Christina, myself and our staff, but also with the client. So, it’s a real-world learning experience where they get feedback and they feel what it’s like to work in this industry because I think that’s really, really difficult to replicate unless they do it.

Lastly, you know, I started a series of workshops that really spawned from the idea that I have a feeling that we talk about multi-disciplinary and interdisciplinary design as if we are actually teaching it. And I do not believe we are doing a good job of that holistically. So, I decided to do a workshop that brought together professors, students, colleagues, clients to just peel back the layers of that conversation and talk about it. And interestingly, the conversation went so well, we actually had to just kind of shoo people out of the room at the end of the day, because we were out of time and we realized that it’s such an explosive subject that everybody wants to talk about, that it bears more discussion.

Abby: Tell us some of the things, like you say, it’s explosive, tell us some of the things that are often brought up in the workshops. What are the hot topics? What are the bones of contention?

Gretchen: I think that the biggest problem that we see or challenge, let’s just call it, is that, the siloed approach to especially undergrad and graduate programs. You have your graphic design programs, you have your interior design, your architecture and so forth, your industrial designers and media. And they typically do not learn to do a project together. They aren’t in the same room together. They don’t realize that while they are on separate tracks, what they are doing creates a holistic experience by coming together as opposed to working separately. And so I think that one of the things that we talk so much about is that all these colleges and these departments have their own numbers, their own budgets, their own quotas, their own criteria, that makes it very, very difficult for these programs to break down those walls and to work together more cohesively.

Brenda: You know, I think that what you’re talking about is so important and so valid. And, you know, in my grad program, we work very hard to break down the silos. It is, I think, the requirement of an individual to know the languages of our industries and maybe not be an expert as a lighting designer, but you need to know the language and to also know that if you’re going to work in museums, you’re going to really do a great job if you understand how marketing environments work and how branded environments work, and vice versa. And this is I think this is our responsibility, and I really appreciate hearing how much you dedicate your time to bringing together bodies of people to really dig in to that and to understand that because frankly, I think it’s the only way that we’re going to really cultivate really useful, productive and powerful talent in our professions.

Gretchen: I mean, my pipe dream is that in addition to sort of exposing them, that, for instance, the kids who are taking UI and UX design and the ones who are doing content development and the ones who are doing architecture actually sit in the room together so that they learn to work in a way where their specialties come forward and they inform each other.

I mean, listen, it’s hard enough in the real world to do that and sort of leave the ego at the door and have everybody do what they do well and listen, learn to listen to each other. But I do think that we suffer from not having enough of these programs coalesce with each other.

Abby: Yeah, I want to add that Lorem Ipsum was fortunate enough to work with DTech over at FIT on a project for Ogilvy, and it literally brought in different disciplines, so completely different areas of study, from fashion to the marketing team to the experience design, the exhibition design folks, to the IT team.

So, they brought in groups of students to collaborate together on this project, which resulted in an exhibition. They started separately, you know, brainstorming on their own, and then immediately realized that they needed to come together and share their ideas and create this together and utilize their individual experiences. And, you know, there were there was a lot of overlapping of experiences as well so that they could all talk and share in telling this story.

They all learned a lot. I know from working closely with the exhibit design students and mentoring them that they needed to understand that their voice was important to the marketing team, to the design, and what the piece of clothing was going to look like for whatever the AV, whatever the AR, whatever the interactive is going to be, and that their voice needed to be in the conversation. Just understanding that was sort of like a watershed moment, you know, and vice versa.

Brenda: Well, we’re speaking in ideals and not everybody is on board with this idea of multifaceted learning experiences or might have a very different definition of what a very talented or multifaceted, you know, working professional is. And as a part of this ideal, I’ve got to say I really love that the three of us are having this conversation from the different perspectives that we are. And part of me keep thinking, well, it’s my job to educate and I’m fortunate to have the resources to be able to work as an educator. But I’m looking at Abby across the table from me and thinking, my gosh, you know, on top of everything else, Abby does work as an educator and really has to allocate a lot of her time and her energy and a lot of her, her mental capacity to thinking about how to educate a client, how to educate her own internal team. And Gretchen, how on earth did you get yourself into a position where you have a firm really supporting these initiatives and providing you the opportunity to really shine in this way?

Gretchen: Education is a subject that everyone wants to talk about. I don’t care who it is, they care about it and they want to talk about it, but you have to give them a reason to get involved and a way to get involved. So, I think that because the firm has seen that I am very serious about what it means to us to be a leader in showing by doing as opposed to talking about it.

You know, we’ve seen how this, especially this last year has gone, and I have to tell you, this last set of workshops where my goal was to invite students into the process of community engagement and the idea of talking about difficult subject matters and the fact that they have a voice and that when you do this kind of work we do, we are so lucky that we have the ability to have a voice, to create a place of dialog and incite action and caring and relevance to subjects, you know, when you see these kids walk out of the room, you were, you were there. I was so stunned by some of the reactions that these students had. And I’m still getting emails from the students saying how much they appreciated sitting in the room together. And so you realize you’re actually at least getting them to realize that we’re out here, we do this, and it’s something you could get excited about.

Abby: So, thinking about technology and how that all fits into this, how are you teaching approaches to new technology and sort of what are any of your thoughts on AI and, you know, emerging design talent and the tools they’re going to be using in the future?

Gretchen: I’ll tell you, I think that there is this real, I don’t know, there’s this confusion, I’m going to call it right now with where to go from what we had to be thrown into at COVID, and God knows Brenda knows that better than anyone, being thrown into the virtual world and then coming back out of it and having a choice. So, the idea of how do we use the advantages that the virtual world brings us in teaching, in working with our clients, in doing focus groups and reaching out? And then where do we use the value of the energy in the room that cannot be replaced by a virtual platform in any way, shape or form? I do not believe we have that solved yet. I don’t believe we have it solved in people coming back to the office or not.

Abby: Are you guys back to the office, Gretchen? Are G&A back in?

Gretchen: We are partially. We do not have any stipulations on number of days to come into the office, but we do have an office space now in both New York and in DC, and the DC space is a shared space and we’re testing right now to see how things go. So, you know, it’s, it’s baby steps back to the office at this point.

Abby: And what about AI?

Gretchen: That’s another one where I think that we are very much in the midst of figuring out where it is a tool that is being used to its highest and best advantage. And I don’t think that we have a stance yet, but we are doing a lot of prototyping, especially in our lab in New York, and looking at where some of this AI technology is something that brings a totally new dimension to a project. So, I think, I think we have a lot more work to do, and I’m not sure how you feel about it, but I think we have a lot more sort of testing and trying out some of the different avenues to figure out where it’s best to use.

Brenda: What a debate it currently is in the college setting, because you’ve got everything from, you know, the necessity to teach AI, to teach new tools and especially in these creative industries and to enable students to really master a lot of these tools and be able to really continue to grow and hopefully take leadership with a lot of the new AI tools. And at the exact same time, we’re having to really limit and restrict and create policies towards the utilization of AI on campus.

Gretchen: Interestingly, I read an article yesterday that was talking about a building that was designed partially with AI, and all I could think, and it was a museum. All I could think to myself was, oh my God, that’s the exact opposite of what I want students to learn when we talk about the fact that form follows function, that when we’re looking at what we want people to do, feel, how we want them to circulate, what we want to unfold, AI cannot do that for us. It has to be something more intentional and not sort of some AI algorithm pulling together what it can pull from all these different places. It just, that to me is a misuse of a tool in my estimation.

Abby: So, Gretchen, it’s interesting your response to that, because I actually have the opposite response because I don’t feel that it’s AI doing it for someone. So, we’re using AI to design and when we say using AI to design, AI is being guided by a collaborator, by a creative. So, we’re using it to go along the journey with us to offer up ideas in answer to our questions. It iterates along with us, so it’s always guided design and guided production.

Gretchen: So important. It’s like asking the right questions, right, it’s just not letting it do your work for you.

Abby: Hundred percent, yeah.

Brenda: Well, part of this too, is bringing me back to when you were talking about the importance of community in the projects that you do and you know, and in particular, I know your personal interest in and investment in social justice. I’m really curious to know how is it that you bring areas of fostering community into your development process as a part of your educational work?

Gretchen: There’s been no time in my professional career that I have seen more of a focus on designing with people as opposed to for people, right? So the idea that, you know, years and years ago we would go into these initial meetings and we would show a design presentation and we would have this focus group of people and we would lay things out for them and say, well, you know, what do you think and how do you feel, and, you know, they would be reacting to something that we had designed primarily by virtue of conversations with the client team and research and so forth.

As we look at things, especially now, the idea is that we go into a client and or a team and say, let’s sit down with no preconceived notions until we actually ask the right questions. We get reactions from the community, from the audience, from different staff members, from the idea of, as Abby, you were saying earlier, asking the right questions so that we get actionable reactions back and then we go back and we design from there. And I’ll tell you, even our own staff has had to remind each other that we must stop designing before we have the right information from the client team.

And it all depends on what kind of client we have, because we may have a client who doesn’t have the time, the money to go out and do months or years’ worth of community engagement. So, there are projects where we can do more and there are projects where we’re limited in the amount of that community input that we can actually take the time to mine from the audience on that.

Abby: It doesn’t often go the exact way you want. You mentioned the time and the money, either one of them is not there or both aren’t there, and so, you’re full sometimes is to make assumptions and based on your experience or education, and what you’ve learned before, in a similar case, you bring that, and you can unpack that to help solve and help create a museum. That’s what I find is doing sometimes when there isn’t the time or the money, is you make a bunch of assumptions for want of a better word, based on what you’ve known.

Gretchen: And sometimes you’re right, you know, you’re lucky you’re right. And sometimes we have to make adjustments if and when we are not correct. And I will tell you, living in the nation’s capital and working on some projects that are highly charged from the political standpoint, we may or may not have the opportunity to voice a highly charged opinion in the work that we’re doing because we’re not permitted.

Abby: So, can we talk a little bit about that for a second? Because that’s clients and educating clients and this is sort of a particular pain point, and one of the reasons why we started Matters of Experience, so please share this, these episodes with potential clients, with clients you have, is to try and educate them about what we do. I think there’s a huge misunderstanding and as you said, like oftentimes keeping us quiet at the table when we’re the team that they should be asking directly to help with the solutions to the problems they have. So, you know, as well as educating students or people who’ve just started out or people like me who’ve been doing this a while, what do you think about educating the clients and how would you go about possibly doing that?

Gretchen: So, when we were talking earlier about sort of some of the professional development and education I’ve been doing from that standpoint, I’ve done a number of workshops and last year I actually changed one of the modules for a workshop we’ve done in several different cities and countries and added an entire module on community engagement and focus groups. And it was really, really rewarding to see how much the people in the room were paying attention to what we were showing.

Sometimes we come into a project and I’m sure you do too, and a client says, you know what, we’ve already done that. You know, we’ve gone out to the community, we’ve gone to the staff, we got that, so we’ll give you what we learned. And a lot of times what we’ll say is thank you, you know, so wonderful. Except part of getting actionable feedback is to ask exactly the right question for what it is that we’re trying to learn.

And so, I think the techniques and Brenda, you saw this in the workshop where what we do a lot of times is we start in an anonymous way so that people don’t have to reveal who they are and what their answer was. They don’t have to stand up in front of a group until they start to feel more comfortable. They don’t have to get in a group of people they don’t know until they get a little bit farther down the line. So, as we start in a more anonymous fashion and we go and get more sort of, fidelity of the information gets greater, and the trust starts to build, and the people start to feel more open, and they feel like you’re not just there to get something from them. You’re actually there to hear what they have to say.

Brenda: So, Gretchen, back to emerging talent and all of the work that you do to educate not just your clients, but also folks who are coming in new into the industry from various places. I’m really curious to know how have you or in what ways have you been reaping the benefits of all of this education work that you do?

Gretchen: Well, I’ll tell you, we have gotten some of the best talent that we could possibly have gotten in the firm. When I have the opportunity to sit with these students and or email back and forth or Zoom with them afterwards and stay connected, and even in a lot of cases, especially with students, Brenda, from your program, just being open enough to say, I’m not going to just tell them they need to come work for us. I’m going to answer their questions about anywhere they could work and hope that if there is a synergy with us that we end up having them come to work with us. So that’s like the lowest hanging fruit in terms of benefit.

But I would say the other part is what I am starting to see that I really am excited about is that we are starting to access younger and younger students, students from the high school programs and some of the undergrad students. And, you know, obviously the graduate level are closer to hiring. But when I actually see students send an email that says, we sat in that workshop you did, and I changed my major because I’m so excited about this profession. I mean, to me, that goes back to the return on impact as opposed to maybe we don’t get to hire them, but they actually go into this profession and we are growing the profession and getting people to understand that the profession exists, that it’s really exciting and they actually have the skill sets, but they didn’t know they had them.

So, I am really seeing some excitement and it’s a very long road. I think that we have to hope on that, but we have to stay with it, and we have to be mentors and we have to bring along the students that we feel we can bring into this industry.

Brenda: Well, growing the profession, that’s really, I think, the most important thing for all of us to be thinking about and that means growing from the inside, growing by bringing folks from the outside in all of these different ways. So, I, for one, very deeply appreciate all of the work that you’ve been doing with young people of many, many different ages and from many, many different backgrounds, Gretchen.

Abby: Yeah, thank you, Gretchen, for inspiring us all today on how we can give back and really support future designers, engineers, writers, programmers, managers, you name it, who may want to work in our industry. So, thank you so much for joining us.

Gretchen: It was, as always, an absolute delight with the two of you and like I said earlier, my, my happy place, so it’s good to be on a Friday talking about the happy place.

Abby: And thanks to everyone who tuned in today. If you like what you heard, subscribe for more episodes of Matters of Experience wherever you listen to podcasts. Make sure to leave a rating and a nice review and share with a friend. We’ll see you next time.

Brenda: Take care, everyone.

[Music]

Producer: Matters of Experience is produced by Lorem Ipsum Corp and recorded at Hangar Studios. Tune in next time for more fun discussions about experience design.

Show Notes

Gallagher Design

DTech Lab

Transcript

[Music]

Abby: Welcome to Matters of Experience, a podcast produced by Lorem Ipsum, an experience design company headquartered right here in New York City. Our podcast explores the creativity, innovation and psychology driving designed experiences and encounters. If you’re new, a hearty welcome to you and to our regular listeners, thanks for tuning in and supporting our conversation. My name is Abigail Honor.

Brenda: Hello, this is Brenda Cowan.

Abby: We would first like to share a note from today’s show sponsor, POW!

Sponsor: This is Paul Orselli, Chief Instigator at POW! (Paul Orselli Workshop), and we’re delighted to sponsor this episode of the podcast. Please check out our website at www.Orselli.net for more information about our work, as well as free resources and articles. Thanks.

Abby: So today, Brenda, I’m really excited, we’re going to focus on emotion. So, for example, designing for emotional experience in exhibitions and interpretive spaces and the next, maybe looking at emotion in the creative process.

Brenda: So, we have a very big agenda here today, and you came into the studio this morning filled with emotion about a very blustery sounding day that’s very busy and you’re operating very quickly, and you clearly are in a heightened state of intense emotion. But we will try and make that a positive emotion. We will see how things go.

Abby: Well, wait a minute. You mean all my years of acting, my acting career, you know, my mom is a drama teacher, I couldn’t hide how intense I was feeling this morning?

Brenda: I was also being very kind, so, which we’re going to talk about because a little bit later on in this particular program, we’re going to talk about how it is that we who work with creative teams and work with others, how it is that we can manage emotions and manage scenarios for people.

So, understanding emotions is a complex field of study and in preparation for looking at this, I was looking up some of my favorite resources, including the work of Pablo Tinio, who works at the Creativity and Aesthetics Lab at Montclair State University. He does work with the study of emotions and how it is that emotions are some of the very least understood aspects of human experiences, but some of the most talked about.

So, understanding thinking about emotions, it’s a lot to ask of ourselves as designers, even as coworkers, and definitely as visitors in storytelling environments. But it’s really important. And the better that we can think about, plan for, anticipate, learn from and listen to other people’s emotional experiences, the better we’re going to be able to do things like prompt curiosity, encourage deep engagement and participation, understand responses and behaviors, build empathy, and even communicate content.

Abby: Thinking back about one of the projects that we did for the Jewish Museum in Moscow. It was all about Stalinist period after World War Two and the anti-Semitic repressions. And so this was an exhibition within the museum at large, and the topic itself sort of immediately suggests an emotional response, right? It’s horrifying. It’s a series of tragic events. So, emotion in a way is on the surface. So the task really for us was not to lose it, not to try to hide behind the factual side of the story, but rather find a way of focusing that emotional response, which is tricky. And it can often become all consuming, especially into specific moments as you take viewers through these strong emotions step by step.

Brenda: So our friend and earlier podcast visitor Ellen Lupton, she provides a brilliant example of how to plan for emotional arc in storytelling environments. She talks about emotion mapping where you can map out high and low elements in an exhibition, such as experiences that build anticipation, then deeply engaging, dramatic moments. Maybe this is with experiencing stuff like dramatic scale or a rarity, or the exposure of a mystery, deep multisensory engagement.

Then there are things like moments of challenges in the exhibition needing to be overcome and by challenges that could be within the content, maybe some difficult content, or when it looks like there’s no resolution or we’re not sure what’s going to happen, there could be an obstruction in the story that is addressed and hopefully resolved, or maybe not, if intended.

But then there are emotional moments of reflection, of calm, of pause and rest, which in my experience can oftentimes be overlooked. So I really want to emphasize that when you’re doing emotion planning and emotion mapping, really thinking about, okay, if you’re bringing people through a really profound emotional arc, are you enabling folks to digest, to pause, to reflect. The exhibition story as well, should have moments of achievement or the journey’s end.

And all of these different elements, they impact how we design the flow of the space, the composition or incorporation of critical objects, engaging designed elements, and the changes of pace in the visitor. Right?

Abby: Completely, completely agree. I remember we did a project called the Zoya Museum, and it was essentially a story of a late teen who was excited to leave high school and ready to go to university. And then World War Two broke out. They all get enlisted, and then after three days of learning, you know how to be a soldier, they’re out there fighting against the Nazis.

She’s eventually caught on a mission. One of the first few days when 98% of these kids were caught and killed within the first few days because they had no experience. So we were charged with telling this woman’s story. And the story starts with that anticipation. It actually starts with looking at what her life was like, what she was learning at school, the same things everybody was learning at school.

And so you look and feel how she felt. And then the story and the emotion changes to the challenges and all the things that she was taught over these three days. The challenge, the mission she was sent on, what she underwent during this mission in the snow, trudging how she tried to complete her mission and ultimately how she was caught and died.

And then within there, there are dramatic moments where we will reveal what was happening with the tank battle around her. And so there’s definitely that anticipation, the challenges she faced, the dramatic moments, the actual war, and then that reflection. This is a very hard, tough story. Her story is very hard to swallow. It’s hard to see. It was a museum made for teenagers.

And so we had built in, when we designed the space, a central atrium, which was for repose and reflection, a place where you could sit on your own and a place we could come together as a group. And it was really important when we designed this space that at every moment throughout the story, the visitor has access to it because you never know what it is that’s going to push somebody over the edge who needs to then go and reflect or what’s going to particularly resonate with that visitor and they’ll need that space.

Or if you’re bringing through groups of schoolchildren, enabling the docent or the teacher to be able to take those kids all out together at the exact moments they need that, to be able to have that quiet. And we purposefully designed it using very organic, earthy materials so that it was a place that felt cozy and warm and comforting, yet simple.

There was no more imagery in there at all. Nothing. So, people could just take the time they needed. And then at the end, you were talking about this idea of, well, I’ll turn into that idea of the achievement. And in this case it was about sharing. We’re always thinking that it’s this conversation. It’s not one way from museum to the visitor.

It has to be the visitor giving back and sharing and being involved with the story. And so at the end, there’s an opportunity for people, for these teenagers to share their family’s war story and become part of this narrative. And often the narrative turns then to hope and what they have now because of their ancestors that they might not have had. So, it does end on a very happy, peaceful note. But there are moments of definitely deep, deep sadness and shock. There’s a lot of shocking imagery in there as well.
 

Brenda: You know, understanding visitor emotional experiences. It’s so critical. And learning how to evaluate or measure impacts of existing spaces can aid us in more deeply understanding how to design for emotion. And this is where, back to Pablo Tinio’s work, he talks about creating heat maps where visitors can reflect on an experience and identify hotter and cooler areas of intensity throughout their experiences.

So if you are interviewing or surveying visitors about their exhibition experience in, say, like a summative style evaluation, they can design their responses, not even necessarily in words or language, which sometimes can be difficult, but they can identify, like I said, these hotter areas, these cooler areas, and really talk about the nature of the emotional experiences.

It enables visitors to share from an emotional perspective so that we really understand where is it that we even hit the mark in terms of our intentions when we were going through the initial process.

Abby: Thinking about the content and the story you’re trying to tell is one path. Parallel to that needs to be the emotions you’re trying to convey or elicit. So it starts with that big picture. Immediately, when we know the top line story of an exhibition, we can think of 2 to 3 overarching emotional responses or outcomes. That’s how we think about it.

And then next comes the breakdown of the story into the storylines or the chapters. And then along with that content, each story block has an emotional response that we need to orchestrate. Then come the specific design decisions, and again, we always ask the question, how does this installation or program fit into our emotional story? And you’re, you’re right. I’m going to use a very humble example that some people will cringe at.

But you think of when you go to Disney, if you’ve ever been to Disney and there’s moments of huge, huge joy and then you have to walk to the next moments of huge, huge joy. And so…

Brenda: Is the walking the moment of…

Abby: The moment…

Brenda: …drudgery and despair.

Abby: Yes, you got it! Between, between the rides or the or the entertainment, between whatever you’re getting entertained with, there’s that moment where you share what you just experienced. You laugh, you giggle, and you talk, and then you look at the next thing and you walk over. And that’s the moment of repose. We naturally ebb and flow with our emotions, and they go through cycles.
 

Brenda: You know, thinking about the highs and the lows, what do you think, shall we talk about the creative team process and emotions in the workplace, Abby?

Abby: I think that’s a great idea. Let’s jump straight into that.

Brenda: So, Dr. Zorana Pringle, this is another amazing individual who’s a great resource when talking about emotions. Zorana comes from the Yale Center for Emotional Experience, where she studies emotion, creativity, and how it is that emotional intelligence can be brought in to workplace practices. So, Zorana specifies emotions as data. Emotions are not things that are bad or good.

Emotions are information that we can use towards productive outcomes. So there’s psychological. They’re also physiological and not to be confused with moods. So moods are longer lasting and moods can be much less intense even than the short lived emotional reaction or emotional response.

Zorana talks about the need for thinking about emotional experiences in our team processes, such as, we’ll use the example of the classic ideation session where we take moments to utilize high energy bursts of ideas, output of thoughts and design solutions, and then how we can intentionally shift people into a more critical emotional space, more subdued, where we can step back, take a look at our ideas from a critical lens. So, she says that this particular point of the process of an ideation session, thinking somewhat pessimistically, can even be helpful because we are better at critical thinking when we’re a little bit pessimistic.

So, in other words, we don’t want to be happy constantly. You can’t ride that high constantly and really be maximally productive. You want to shift the thinking and understanding people’s emotions is important to facilitating these shifts. Do you want to talk about how you experience this and how maybe you facilitate these different kinds of shifts with your team?

Abby: What I do is I bring everybody together, set up what the RFP is or the task or the challenge and let them go and think, because you need time to be creative and they go away and they think, and then we bring people together. So there’s already been a journey made by each individual down the path, so there’s been some thought.

And then as they start sharing their ideas with our team, then you want all the voices at the table. Then people can add and build. But we do it in a way that is, everybody at the table understands why we’re doing it, because it’s necessary to be successful and to get the results you’re looking for. The thing we’re not talking about is that there has to be a final decision maker.

There has to be a creative director or somebody at the end of the day who goes no, because and gives the real reason, not just because I don’t like it, but because why they don’t think it’s going to be the most effective solution. And this one, because this is going to be the most effective solution because you need them to understand so that the better informed for next time when they’re coming up with solutions to problems, what the problems really are.

And you need them to understand because everybody’s got to be on board. It’s not about ego, it’s not about what I want. It’s what we all think is going to be best for the visitor and best for telling the story. And I think as long as everybody can get on board with that and understands that that’s where everything’s coming from, then it’s fantastic. Nobody minds.

Brenda: I think that you’re describing so many different emotional states that people must go through throughout this process. It’s reminding me of when I was first starting in exhibition development and ideas would be generated and there would be an idea on the table, and if you were lucky, it came from your own brain, that just was just gorgeous, that solved the challenge, that, you know, created great opportunities and you would just feel this elation, and my colleagues said, well, that’s developer’s high, which is such a wonderful thing.

And it’s wonderful when you’ve got a room full of people who are brainstorming and you’ve got this high energy and this synergy that’s created, but like you’re describing, you necessarily then have to go through those other shifts, and a really talented facilitator can work with leading the creative team through those different emotional states, very much so like you’re describing

They’re shifts in thinking and these can really maximize productivity and engagement. That’s what a great facilitator knows what to do. You’re managing shifts and emotions. Now, you’re not manipulating, okay, but you’re managing. And I think in an example about my classes and how I teach and where we might begin in the classroom by exploring, let’s say, some exhibition content where we need to be really thoughtful, really careful.

And I’ll have us working really slow. I’ll focus on an empathetic environment, very gentle, sharing, especially if we are working on an exhibition where the content is very, maybe it’s controversial, maybe it’s very sensitive content, whatever it really might be. But then I’ll need to shift my students into an ideation work session in response to that content, we’re going to really begin going through a brainstorming process, let’s say, where we’re going to be working on developing out an exhibition space.

Now I need to elevate the pace. I need to get folks into quick bursts of ideas, which can lead to a lot of positive chatter, and suddenly the room has a lift in tone. And then we need to take a step back and we need to think critically about what we just produced and refine the work. So that’s yet a different headspace altogether.

And it’s where I lead the students to make some really tough decisions. And this is very much so what you’re describing in the workplace and certainly in your own company, the tone of the room becomes quite serious and it’s supportive. It’s respectful but critical of the ideas. And I have to be very aware, as a professor and you as, you know, a team leader, we need to be very aware of the emotions that folks are experiencing so that we can cover a lot of content, so that we can learn, so that we can grow.

Overall, the classes though, they need to be positive. Now, that doesn’t mean that everybody’s happy and bouncing and giggling and everything else. It means that positive productivity is happening and that’s really critical. You know, I got to say, Abby, sometimes by the end of a class day, I am like totally exhausted. We’re all exhausted because we literally have laughed, we have cried. We have just gone through it all.

Abby: Kudos to you, as well Brenda, because that’s incredible. I’ve seen you doing it and you give of your all, you are your work, and so, which is why I think you’re so successful and you really inspire all of these students. No, it’s true. She’s got her hand on her heart, everyone. It is 100% true.

Brenda: I’m holding my little heart, everybody.

Abby: And anybody who’s ever seen Brenda at work and seen the incredible work she produces out of the students at FIT knows I’m right. I think one of the other interesting things is that our projects can last months and then years. And when you’re thinking about the emotion of some of the harder stories that we’re trying to tell, it’s hard.

You know, we can’t pretend emotions don’t exist or that they’re always positive. And we know all too well like how bleak everything can feel when we’re all so stressed and tired in our personal life. I really try and my team really tries to pay close attention to all our team. We really find ways to comfort each other, motivate each other, calm each other down, or sort of like this human empathy and understanding which has to go on.

It’s not just having to go on when you’re actually brainstorming or working together. I think it has to go on throughout the relationship in the, I’ll do air quotes, office, whether it be in-person or over Zoom. So, for all of those leading a team or interacting with clients as well, we haven’t even started to talk about the emotions that our clients can induce or need to have induced within them, it’s often important to channel a very stable, calm, emotional setting for everything.

Brenda: When we’re talking about the creative team clients, the manager, you know, folks might think, well, don’t we need to be objective and not emotional in their work? And you know what? We’re human, just like you’re describing. People are walking, talking, emotional feeling beings and it’s really not possible to leave emotions at the doorstep. And it’s all about what we do with these emotions, that’s really important.

So, one thing that we can do at the workplace, even with our clients, with our teams that I can do with my students, we can begin a day with an acknowledgment of how people are feeling, asking folks, how are you feeling today, and validating them. So, this is something that Zorana talks about and how this can actually lead to what she says are magical results.

It provides opportunities for people to help and support each other. Now, there are no guarantees. And, you know, when I think about this, I think about the tremendous amount of trust and vulnerability, you know, involved in having an environment where you can openly do a check-in, do an emotional check-in or a feeling check-in with others.

But nevertheless, it can happen well, if you cultivate this kind of culture within the workplace and including with clients as well. And if nothing else, this is a better place to operate than being in a very repressed or a very oblivious kind of workplace.

Abby: I think it starts long before the meeting. It starts understanding that you’re hiring a human being and a person, and our job is to take care of them as best they can. So that’s supporting their needs, if they need to leave, to go and take care of family members or for whatever reason, it’s trusting that they’re going to get the work that you need them to do done.

So it starts there with that trust, and so being empathetic and supportive as an employer to their needs beyond the work is critical.

Brenda: Many years ago I was a project manager on an exhibition project and I, you know, it was all teamwork and the clients could get very stressed out and look, we ask a lot of our clients, right? We ask for a lot of suspension of disbelief that this is going to work, that these solutions are going to be really on target and we will, to the best of our ability, stay on budget.

And, you know, the schedule, all of it. We ask a lot of clients. We really do. And I was working on this project team and we were having a lot of meetings in the midpoint of a project. So there’s a lot going on. And there were, increasingly, conflicts and folks getting very heightened emotionally at the table, and there was just no mystery whatsoever to the client feeling very irritated, you know, irate, very irritated.

And folks were starting to get…

Abby: Yeah, they like to make that clear, right? Totally no mystery.

Brenda: So but it was about the content and this was in a way, an opportunity because it just so happens that the project that we were working on was about two historical figures. We were interpreting the story of two historical figures who had a sort of love hate relationship.

Abby: Very interesting. This sounds like a fantastic project.

Brenda: It was amazing. The George Washington Carver Educational Center out in Diamond, Missouri. And at any rate, so we were doing a lot of work about the creative conflicts and how it is ultimately that Carver did brilliant work, even though he was at odds oftentimes with his colleague Booker T. Washington. Everybody agreed on this content. Everybody loved Carver, everybody loved this story, had very deep held beliefs in the importance and the positivity of the story.

And I found a moment as the manager to take a pause with everybody and talk about the tensions between Washington and Carver and say we are experiencing the same thing that our two historical figures experienced. And they did great things. And I said, we too are going to do great things and let’s put ourself in a framework of thinking about how it is that when you achieve something really beautiful and really graceful and really important, it can come out of tremendous tension.

And it was just one of those moments that, you know, Zorana referred to as magical because it worked.

Abby: People 

are only passionate and emotional because they care and goodness me, never lose that. But you’re right how you channel it and it can be overwhelming for all of us at one point in the process. So just understanding that that moment is going to come and how you deal with it and have compassion and understanding for others in that moment as well. The way you’d like to be treated, treat them, because I think we all too easily forget.

Brenda: Absolutely. So, Abby, how are you feeling?

Abby: I’m feeling fantastic. I’m feeling like I really hope we said something today that has helped and sort of even beyond exhibition design and in their daily life understands it’s okay to have emotions. It’s okay to feel. It’s what motivates us, helps us and makes us vulnerable and all that wonderful thing. And most importantly, it’s how we grow and experience the world around us.

So don’t cut yourself off for emotions. Have them, cry, laugh, be scared, push yourself through. We didn’t even talk about fear. We didn’t even talk about the emotions. But really, yes, feel. I would say feel. As soon as you start to go numb, then, you know, that’s a really bad thing. So, keep feeling, everyone out there.

Brenda: Well, listeners, I hope you’re feeling pretty good.

Abby: Yeah. Thank you, everybody who tuned in today. If you like what you heard, please subscribe for more episodes of Matters of Experience. Make sure to leave a rating and a review and share with a friend. We’ll see you next time.
 

Brenda: Buh-bye everybody.

[Music]

Producer: Matters of Experience is produced by Lorem Ipsum Corp and recorded at Hangar Studios. Tune in next time for more fun discussions about experience design.

 

Show Notes

The Secrets of Emotion — Pablo P. L. Tinio

Jewish Museum and Tolerance Center – Lorem Ipsum Corp

Designer and Curator Ellen Lupton on How Storytelling Shapes Design

Lorem Ipsum’s experience design shows the “power of dramatic narratives”

Zorana Ivcevic Pringle, Ph.D.

Yale Center for Emotional Intelligence (YCEI)

Transcript

[Music]

Abby: Welcome to Matters of Experience, a podcast produced by Lorem Ipsum, an experience design company headquartered in New York City. Our podcast explores the creativity, innovation and psychology driving designed experiences and encounters. If you’re new, welcome, and to our regular listeners, thanks for tuning in and supporting our conversation. My name is Abigail Honor.

Brenda: And this is Brenda Cowan.

Abby: We just want to share a note from today’s show sponsor, POW!

Sponsor: This is Paul Orselli, Chief Instigator at POW! (Paul Orselli Workshop), and we’re delighted to sponsor this episode of the podcast. Please check out our website at www.Orselli.net for more information about our work, as well as free resources and articles. Thanks.

Abby: Today we are off the tracks. Where are we, Brenda?

Brenda: We are in the American Museum of Natural History experiencing the new Gilder Center.

Abby: Well, Brenda, I’m really excited to talk about some of the phenomenal things, fantastic things we saw today and some of the things that we found a little underwhelming.

Okay, so let’s kick it off. Let’s start positive. Let’s start with things that impressed us, intrigued us, things we enjoyed.

Brenda: Well, I think for me, the thing that really knocked my socks off, on each floor, they have open storage areas that are layered with displays of objects, and the graphic rails talk about the people who do the jobs with the specimens, with the artifacts that you’re seeing, and you get to see the storage behind, you get to see what’s going on sort of behind the scenes. And it’s really visually dynamic.

The thing that also makes those areas on each of the floors really, really perfect in my mind’s eye is that the label copy is all question-based. So, all of the headlines are questions and they’re very natural questions that you would wonder when you’re looking at these really sometimes bizarre, sometimes strange, sometimes really familiar-looking objects.

Oh, the question leads you in. You get a nice hit of content and then you’re on to the next thing. It’s perfect. It’s great exhibitry, and it was fascinating. And I want all of the jobs of all of the people who I saw displayed in all of these areas, because who knew.

Abby: One of the really nice things that I enjoyed about that moment on the floors was being able to see faces, names, and very simply understand the varied jobs that are associated. It was all done in a very easy-to-digest, informative way that I think was inspirational.

Brenda: It was inspirational, and it was just really human, and another thing that I think is really smart – they put objects of material culture next to specimens in jars and fossils and so on and so forth. So, there was this great sort of mix of the human story within the story of the animals.

Abby: And everything that was there had been clearly curated down. Nothing felt overwhelming and everything was very intriguing. I was like, oh my goodness me, what is that? And I thought the use of large interactives with questions like who uses our collections and a very, very simple click-click to get your answers. You didn’t need a lot of ramp up for using the, the interactives. They were very straightforward. I saw kids using them. I saw adults using them. I saw older people engaging. They were just very simple and complemented the themes.

Brenda: Those displays which line the halls, in line the major gallery areas are, I think for me, the very, very best of the Gilder Center. And it’s not to say that there aren’t other really good things going on. Abby and I were just at the Insectarium, which is beautifully designed. It’s a nice open space and yet it’s cohesive. And again, it’s simple, it’s straightforward. They’ve got specimens next to really beautiful graphics. There are some touch screens where you can get more information and it’s a really playful, open area with a lot, a lot of content, a lot of actual living creatures, and it just makes a lot of sense. It’s a very pleasurable exhibit.

Abby: Yeah, I would echo. The Insectarium is gorgeous. It has this amazing ceiling, ribbed ceiling that I think makes it feel very cocoon-like. And then you have these very large recreations of flowers and strawberries that really break up the space and make it feel more immersive and a bit different from a more traditional exhibition. And then having a mix of the live animals, very small moments, they’re not huge, they’re small moments where you can go and see the live animals, and right next door is again some very brief relevant text that’s enjoyable to read, and then you have a very small quick video moment. What I really like here is that you can click through the video moments and they’re about 10 seconds long and it’s all very easy, it’s all digestible and it’s not overwhelming, and you don’t feel like you’re walking through a book.

Brenda: Well, walking through a book. We did start out our journey here in the Hall of Gems and had in so many ways almost the opposite experience from what we’re starting out with right now. It was absolutely stunning to look at. It was like being in a jewelry store, as you would perhaps anticipate, and yet it was so difficult to experience. It was difficult to gain content. It was difficult to do all of the reading. And it was very unapproachable as well. And we’ve got, you know, fascinating content that was really, really a struggle to get a handle on.

Abby: I mean, the collection itself is phenomenal, but the text panels were boring. They were heavy. They were intellectual. They were very heavily scientific. And I couldn’t touch a gem. I wanted to touch one or a cheap version of one. I wanted to feel what they were like. And the only thing we found, or the only thing I found in there was some metal recreations of the shapes inside the gemstones and a scientific and mathematical drawing about them, again, which is very analytic. A lot of the questions I had, the straightforward questions, weren’t answered.

Brenda: There wasn’t anything that really tapped into the culture of gems. You know, people collect, you know, quartz. They collect different gemstones; they collect different types of semi-precious stones. There are so many different types of gems in our everyday lives that people see as being numinous, as being, you know, alive or life-giving or energy giving, and I wanted to understand some of that. I wanted to, I wanted to understand my people a little bit better and why it is that people have relationships that are very, very powerful with gems. And there just wasn’t anything to sort of give me a clue.

Abby: That’s interesting. You bring up the human relationship because I feel like there also wasn’t a real global perspective. There was no real perspective except from a scientific perspective. And I wondered about kids. There was nothing for them to do. Even the interactive that we did was a question and answer interactive. And you know, you needed to be able to read long, complicated words and understand what these were or at least try to understand what these minerals were. And I think that that precluded anybody under the age of 12 or 13.

Can we talk about the floor?

Brenda: I don’t know what it says about us, Abby, or what it says about the museum or, you know, maybe we just are just too enmeshed in our own profession, but we were both really stunned by how beautiful the floor was. This beautiful, beautiful, deep slate gray color that is reflecting back the colors and the lighting of all of the stones all throughout the hall. It was sumptuous.

Abby: Sumptuous is the exact word. It was, it was incredible. Another sort of miss for me was the Minerals are Elementary, exclamation mark, which was this huge. It was about nine screens, and on it was the periodic table. Everybody knows the periodic table. It’s how scientists organize elements. And over we walked, well at least over I walked, and I went to touch one because each of the elements was rather large and it had Cr on it or Mo or Tc, and I was like, oh, this is cool, touch. Nothing happened. It, in fact, was not a large touchscreen at all. It was a piece of media. And what it was telling me, what it was doing, I still don’t know. There was four speakers, and no sound coming out of those speakers. So, I think maybe something was broken, but I had to sit there as they turned a color and then showed me that, you know, almond is made of this. And I felt like interacting with the periodic table could have been so fun.

Brenda: It would have been really, really cool, because as it is, unless you’re already kind of in the club, you just don’t get it.

Abby: And I think that that’s a problem because it definitely hits, yeah, I’ve got several friends and acquaintances who are really into this subject and they loved it, but I think that that’s a miss. I think it’s about getting those people as well as people who’ve come to just learn a bit more. And I do want to say one of the highlights was What Makes Clay Useful. There was a moment when we went into clay and clays are a family of fine-grained aluminum-bearing silica minerals that form sheet-like layers with large surface areas that attract water. Wow. Okay, that’s great. This was this was one of the more interesting text panels. This makes clay moldable when wet while also allowing it to hold its shape when dried.

Brenda: I just, I love that they showed bricks. They just showed ordinary bricks. And then they, they had a lovely image of a person at a potter’s wheel making a clay pot. And then there was the clay pot that was on display. It was so, that was very simple and really quite lovely.

Abby: Yeah, so, bringing it to life with relatable images. And I personally loved the, the clay-based cat litter, which was invented in 1947, and was a boon for pet owners. So, they had a nice little picture there of kitty turned away, so we couldn’t see her cute eyes. But making, I think, some of these things relatable to the visitor, looking at minerals and gems in our everyday life, they could have done a lot more with that; those were the moments that I really connected.

Next, Brenda, we went into Invisible Worlds. So, what’s your perspective on that?

Brenda: I loved it. I hated it. So, I’ve gone there twice and they were very, very different experiences. The first time I went, there were so many people that it was really, really difficult to connect with anything. It was very difficult to have any kind of a really thoughtful experience. The time that you and I just had in the exhibition, far fewer people and I was able to take in the content. I was able to have more of an in-depth experience with the content. So, it’s a ticket entry, but if they could better regulate the number of people that go through, especially the big sort of immersive experience at the end, because the first time I did Invisible Worlds, I hated it. I didn’t get it. I thought that there wasn’t a cohesive story. I didn’t understand how come some things seemed very visible and I understood other things that were invisible. But there are a lot of themes there that didn’t seem connected to me in any way. I was able to have a better time, more focused time, and get a little bit closer to the content with better control of…

Abby:  Better flow of traffic.

Brenda: Thank you. That’s what I was looking for. Better traffic flow.

Abby: Yeah. So, it was my first time. So, I read the opening statement about what I was about to see: things that are all around me, small and big, that I’ve never seen before. Very excited. I walked in and sorely disappointed by the initial media pieces where they have sort of material that’s in these swathes around the room, these large white swathes projected just on the center, and you have the stereotypical drone sound, we’re creating an atmosphere, everybody. And then you have one image in the middle, and you’re looking, and there’s a text quote above, and there’s no story, there’s no narrative. I can’t follow anything.

And so, I stood there for a minute or two. I’m like, okay, imagery, walked around the corner, a large area of darkness, and then come to something else, which is another swath and another projection, and then objects inside the projection, physical objects, which are all illuminating. And I’m standing there, and I can’t work out what they’re telling me. I’m like, okay, are they all related? Okay, their genes, they have similar genes, but why is some lighting up and then the next, so I’m not being enabled to guide my own learning. I have to stand and watch and be told.

And it’s that monologue that I think is ancient, and we should stop doing it. It needs to be a dialogue, and I want to touch and access what I want to touch and access. I don’t want to have to stand and try to work out what you’re trying to tell me.

Brenda: Yeah, if there, somewhere, if there was an element that explained the overarching idea in some form, then I missed it. You missed it, which is a real problem, and that’s what was really very necessary. It was not clear in the introduction area what this was all about, and again, you know, we were both really looking really hard. Maybe we were overthinking. I don’t know. Maybe we’re just really jaded, right? Perhaps. But it was really difficult experiencing it. The things that worked the most effectively were these little interactive digital games.

Abby: Yeah, they were superb.

Brenda: They were great. And you could sort of follow specific questions, get quick hits of content. It was a little bit of fun. You got some answers, right, you got some answers wrong. And it was really nice, quick, you know, sort of what do you know, kinds of facts, information, fun facts.

Abby: Yeah, like one was an interactive about our ancestors and that was fun. It was interesting. It was, as you said, easy to use. You know, I didn’t know I was close, more closely related to mold rather than moss. I found that interesting.

Brenda: Oh, you’re more closely related to the whale than you are the big shark.

Abby: All things, yeah, I was like, wow, this is really cool. So, there were elements of how we connect to nature and how we connect to our history and our evolution, which didn’t really remind me of the title Invisible Worlds.

Brenda: Yeah, that’s, that’s what I’m just, I’m really struggling to kind of get that because, again, you were able to pick up on specific thematic areas or chunks of content, but the big message was just really missing, and I think that there was an opportunity in the big culminating event portion of the exhibition, which is this immersive 360 really gorgeous, gorgeous.

Abby: Yeah, gorgeous.

Brenda: It’s stunning. The immersive experience led you through several different environments, and it was really difficult to get the main message, though, like what the takeaways were.

Abby: I totally agree. It was absolutely gorgeous. The visuals were stunning, the sound was amazing, but it felt like a factoid video. So again, they’re telling us something informative. And I found again when I walked out, I’m like, okay, what’s my takeaway? What’s the lasting impression? And it’s, oh, that was a good bit of fun, nothing, like that was great for my Instagram, but I didn’t, I wasn’t moved, I didn’t connect, I didn’t understand what they were trying to tell me.

Brenda: Yeah, and again, and it’s not to, the whole thing is not a loss. It’s not, it’s not like, you know, we think you should scrap the whole thing and start, start all over again. But it is frustrating when so much, clearly, so much time, effort, so much money went into this exhibition, and what we were looking for is really relatively simple. Just give us the big take away and the title itself just seemed to be a little bit misleading.

Abby: One of the moments that I thought resonated best in this 360 experience was when they asked us to step on the brainwaves and shoot, was it shoot the, what did they ask us to do, do you remember?

Brenda: We were shooting synapses? Is that what we were doing?

Abby: That’s what we were doing. I was shooting some synapses, and I was moving and I was running over to my dark bubble and I was shooting out my synapse, but what I liked was it shot along the room to somebody else who was then shooting their synapse back to me. And suddenly I was aware of other people in the room with me and we were doing a communal activity, and I loved that moment.

Brenda: Yeah, the reactive, responsive floor experience was a lot of fun, was really, really compelling and had you, you know, experiencing more of the entirety of the space, which is, which is really great. With a clear story, you would have been all in.

Abby: And there was no drama, right? There was no conflict. There was no adversity that we’ve beaten to get where we are today. I felt like there was none of that. And it’s easy to get excited about, about evolution. So, I, yeah. Then I had another thought. Brenda, which is, you know, as we’re in the business, maybe we overanalyze, and maybe it’s enough for people to take out their phone and go, wow, a whale flying, you know, flying, felt like it was flying around me in the water, cool, making a noise, awesome. But then I walk out, I’m like, no, that’s not enough. I want people to understand why the whale was there, why it was significant, so that they can go away, and it can change who they are, their destiny. And you have a lovely story about your daughter coming here many, many years ago. Tell us about that.

Brenda: So, as with probably just far too much in my life, major milestone moments are entirely about my daughter and I just remember taking her here when she was about four years old, many, many, many years ago, and she could not get enough of the Big Bang video and you sit, you’re watching the video. It’s contained. It is clear. And this tiny person was absolutely enthralled. And she is not a scientist 20 plus years later, but she was captivated because the story was clear and it used powerful images and it was, you know, certainly much less expensive than the experience that we just had. But the story was complete.

Abby: And I agree. I think that I’ve seen it, I went, my kids have seen it, and it makes you feel about, it makes you question your place in the universe. At least it made me question my place in the universe – Brenda is stunned and stunned, shocked in awe. Okay, so let’s move on to the butterflies.

Brenda: Who doesn’t love butterflies? Butterflies are lovely. Here’s the thing that I was a little bit frustrated about. Gorgeous space. Absolutely beautiful, and what a rare delight to be able to be completely immersed in this really, genuinely magical world of these gorgeous plants and butterflies and learning about them in these, you know, tiny little ways through little fact panels here and there that were really thoughtfully integrated.

But my issue, my stumbling block, is that when you got in there, you weren’t supposed to touch the butterflies. And there were occasional little signs that said, don’t touch the butterflies, right, with a little, a little icon. That’s fine. Why, Abby, did we not get information before going in that not only informed us to not touch the butterflies, but why? Because it would have been a great opportunity for empathy, a great moment to really just, if it was through video, you know, while you’re waiting to get into the space or if it was even just a text panel with some images or one of the, you know, people who is stationed there. If somebody could have just said, here’s why we don’t touch butterflies, right? Here’s how we care for butterflies.

Abby: Yeah. That might have prevented the young man I saw trying to get the butterfly on his hand from damaging the poor butterfly’s leg.

Okay, so let’s move on to a space that is probably just as important, I would argue, as any of the touted exhibition spaces that we’ve discussed. It is the connective tissue; it is the joining moment between old and new. It is the moment between the old building and the new building. And Brenda, just describe right now what it’s like.

Brenda: It is like walking through the basement of some kind of business complex. The interstitial connecting areas are white walls. You feel like you are in the wrong place. You feel like you are not supposed to be going through them. There’s little to no signage anywhere that tells you you can enter into the rest of the museum this way.

Abby and I just kept thinking, maybe they’re not finished yet. Maybe they just haven’t gotten to these interstitial spaces yet. And at the same time, fine. Okay. Right. Lots to go, I’m sure. However, do something. Give us some signage that says it’s okay that you are walking in this space right now. And no, you are not about to get lost. You are about to enter the old part of the building and there was just nothing, and this is on all of the floors.

Abby: It’s just very odd. It’s that, transitional spaces are just as important as the main exhibition spaces. They set people up. They’re the prelude before you walk in to the space, and they’re also another place to communicate information. They’re a place of repose. There was nowhere to sit, nowhere to reflect. And it did. It felt like a basement. And I didn’t realize the rest of the museum was there. It sort of is on a bend away from you and it looks like you shouldn’t go there. And so, listeners, Brenda had to tell me to go there, so I would have missed the rest of the Natural History Museum completely had I not known that.

And as Brenda says, I think it’s, it’s simple design things. It’s not expensive. You could do beautiful connecting images or a design that was thematic that would really help. And with these spaces, you know, as we were going up the main staircase, they’d put a beautiful quote from a fellow museum lover. “Learning goes both ways,” and I feel like that’s not what I’ve seen and experienced here today. There was nowhere for me to give back, for me to interact, for me to share my thoughts and ideas. And so, looking at these epic spaces, transitional spaces between the museums, between these times, between these subject matters, I feel, Brenda, these will be wonderful moments where we as the visitors can give our opinions, our thoughts and really play more. There felt like not a lot of play here, and I feel like that we could really seriously use those spaces.

Brenda: Yeah, I think there’s a whole lot of inspiration. There’s a whole lot of prompting, of wonder, prompting of imagination. There’s a lot of care and thoughtfulness here in terms of the design and the visitor experience. And yet, I agree 100%. Wouldn’t it be so much richer if, you know, we were able to share a little story somewhere in a video booth or share a little story or do a little piece of, you know, writing and a feedback wall somewhere and talk about, you know, what kind of scientist I would love to be or which of, you know, all of the different areas in the museum that I saw today, what I most want to live inside of.

Abby: I’ve seen amazing insects I didn’t know ever walk the planet. Gorgeous colors, beautiful textures. And it’s just, it’s been so inspiring. And I feel like I’m going to walk out, unable to do anything about all of these feelings and thoughts I have. There’s so much more that we could do here.

Brenda: It’s making me think of Annie Dillard, Pilgrim at Tinker Creek, which my students know is a book that I am absolutely obsessed about. Annie Dillard, who won the Pulitzer Prize for the book, wrote, “I’m no scientist. I merely explore the neighborhood” when writing this remarkable book that captures an entire year spent literally on her belly in the mud at the side of a creek and documenting the unbelievable beauty, wonder, just it’s a lustful book about science and the natural world. And I wish that that feeling were here. I wish that that feeling of I, you know, may not be a scientist, but I can explore the neighborhood in a way that is personal. I wish that experience were here.

Abby: Well, Brenda, I’ve really enjoyed our time here today. I encourage everybody listening to come. You should see it for yourself, judge for yourselves. Judge us as well as well as the museum. And let us know your thoughts on what you feel works and what doesn’t work. You know how to reach us, but this has been really interesting. It’s been a fantastic way to spend an afternoon.

Brenda: Highly recommend the visit as well and come explore this neighborhood, enjoy it, and take from it what you will.

Abby: Thanks for everyone who tuned in today. If you like what you heard, subscribe for more episodes of Matters of Experience wherever you listen to podcasts and make sure to leave a rating and a review and please share with a friend. See you next time.

Brenda: Thank you everyone.

[Music]

Producer: Matters of Experience is produced by Lorem Ipsum Corp. Tune in next time for more fun discussions about experience design.

Show Notes

Richard Gilder Center for Science, Education, and Innovation

Susan and Peter J. Solomon Family Insectarium | AMNH

Mignone Halls of Gems and Minerals | AMNH

Davis Family Butterfly Vivarium | AMNH

Invisible Worlds Immersive Experience | AMNH

Pilgrim at Tinker Creek (Harper Perennial Modern Classics)

Transcript

[Music]

Abby: Welcome to Matters of Experience, a podcast produced by Lorem Ipsum, an experience design company headquartered in New York City. Our podcast explores the creativity, innovation and psychology driving designed experiences and encounters. If you’re new, a hearty welcome to you and to our regular listeners, thank you for tuning in and supporting our conversation. My name is Abigail Honor.

Brenda: I’m Brenda Cowan. Hello, everyone.

Abby: Before we begin, we just want to share a note from today’s show sponsor, POW!

Sponsor: This is Paul Orselli, Chief Instigator at POW! (Paul Orselli Workshop), and we’re delighted to sponsor this episode of the podcast. Please check out our website at www.Orselli.net for more information about our work, as well as free resources and articles. Thanks.

Abby: And now it’s my pleasure to welcome Tom Bowman to the show.

Tom: It’s my pleasure to join you.

Abby: Tom, welcome. You’re the founder of Bowman Change, Inc., a consultancy dedicated to helping organizations reap the benefits of working with purpose, making social and environmental transformation central to their missions. Tom regularly provides counsel to federal agencies like the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration, National Science Foundation, NASA and the White House Council on Environmental Quality.

Going way back to the late 1980s, Tom founded Bowman Design Group, an award-winning exhibit design and management firm that works with leaders of Fortune 1000 corporations, startups, science museums and aquariums. He is the author of three books, which we have links to on our site, and I urge everyone to check them out. Tom’s appeared on Marketplace, CNN, in The New York Times, Yale Environment 360, and now finally here on Matters of Experience. Tom, a huge welcome to the show.

Tom: It’s finally good to step up to something really good.

Brenda: Oh, my goodness.

Tom: Thanks for having me.

Brenda: So, Tom, you and I first met, it was around about 2014 and this was through our engagement with Exhibit Designers and Producers Association and Exhibitor Media Group. And you were talking with the exhibits industry about things such as the alarming amount of waste and the damage being caused and exhibit practices and how we can make a sea change, how we can turn towards becoming leaders, how we can turn towards becoming advocates in addressing climate change. Are there changes that you have seen in the exhibits industry?

Tom: Let’s take one step back first and talk about changes that are happening in our society more broadly. The majority, now, of Americans are pretty concerned about the changing climate and changing environmental conditions that we’re living with. You know, the intensity of storms and drought and flood and all the expensive catastrophes and tragedies that are happening.

There is a shift also in corporate boardrooms. It’s no longer considered acceptable to be a climate denier in the C-suite. The challenge, though, is to see how that trickles down to an industry like the events, exhibits and experience industry, because we exist well below the level of the C-suite for the most part. It’s a very, very diffused industry. It’s made up primarily of small companies that are independently owned.

And if you own a small company on the production side, you know, design, fabrication, and show services and so forth, margins are small and doing things in ways that are reliable and routine and that are making clients happy is really a powerful driving force as it needs to be. And so, introducing new criteria like let’s reduce waste, let’s reuse properties longer, let’s shift to Energy Star rated electronic and electrical equipment as often as we can, these moves feel like extra burdens, and so I’ve spoken with a couple of the other sort of thought leaders in this space who are pioneers in greening their companies and they say that they’re struggling now that they have established this to keep their younger employees engaged with these issues. You know, the, the first wave was kind of the easy part.

And now making it a standard part of the culture is the challenge they’re facing. Most of the people on the client side in this industry, which would be exhibit managers, event managers, meeting managers, tend not to have the same level of authority as directors and vice presidents do in their companies. Now, obviously, there’s a wide range, you know, if you’re in a bigger company, you might be an exhibit manager.

If you’re a smaller company, you might be a vice president or even the owner. So, across that range, in large companies, by and large, the drive to make sustainability a priority in the events industry is not terribly strong. There is a sort of a generally much more welcoming attitude toward green proposals from exhibit houses and, designers and producers. I don’t yet see that it’s become the kind of trend that is driving the industry, though.

Abby: Well, I actually wanted to back up before we sort of jump into the industry and focus on, you know, when we all look back, there’s always been climate change. I mean, we’ve gone from one ice age to the other ice age, and the difference now is the speed of it, right? It’s happening so quickly.

If we take a bigger, even larger view, you know, mankind, I mean, our modern civilization has only been here for about 12,000 years, 11,700 years. Why do we think we’re going to be here for another 11,000? We’ve only been here for a blip. What if climate change caused by us is just part of Earth’s natural progression? It won’t accommodate how we like to live on it, but the Earth will be here in another 4 billion years.

Tom: That’s a really good question, Abigail because that 12,000 years or so that human civilization has existed corresponds to an unusually stable climate period. So, in the short term, the rapid change in climate that’s being caused by all the greenhouse gasses that we’ve been adding to the atmosphere for the last 250 years or so are changing the conditions in which all of human civilization has been established and created.

And it means that the places that we’re living and the places we’re growing food might not all be particularly hospitable to people in the very near term. You know, we’re seeing more floods, more hurricanes, more drought in the West, all of the wildfires in Canada. These are circumstances that are not good for us.

There’s another less well known and really profound change that’s happening. And that is, scientists say that we have entered into the sixth mass extinction event in Earth’s history. Well, in mass extinction events, you lose something like 90% of species. And so, biodiversity is dramatically reduced and these periods of reduced biodiversity can last a million years or so. And that’s happening now, and it’s being driven largely by environmental change caused by civilization.

We’re compartmentalizing ecosystems, so that species don’t have the freedom to move over large areas the way they’re used to. We’re literally killing off species. And so, in the long run, yes, Earth will be here. Life will be here. Whether it’s good for humans or not is an open question. And it’s a, you know, scientists call it a grand experiment. And it’s up to us collectively as a species to decide how much this is going to change.

Brenda: So let’s talk more about that, the element of human psychology within all of this. I was really taken in your book, What If Solving Climate Change Is Simple?, what a grand thought that is, you talk about how the population has the opportunity to shift the status quo, despite our tendency to not want to. And I’m wondering, are you seeing through the work and the engagement that you have, are you seeing this kind of necessary psychological shift that will enable us to actually address these realities? Or are we just stuck in the why bother?

Tom: No, I don’t think we are stuck in the why bother. I really think society has moved beyond that point. One of the things that I’ve talked about for a long time is that there is a very powerful narrative about all the innovations that are taking place across our economies that are making a tremendous difference, and we don’t hear about them as if they’re a coherent story.

We hear about little fragments from time to time. But, there are innovations taking place in battery technology. California, which has the fifth or fourth largest economy in the world all by itself, is decarbonizing its economy and is really sort of driving economically the push toward electrification of transportation and things like that and the decarbonization of our electricity supply through renewable energy.

There are all kinds of people working in all sorts of different processes. You know, there are people who, executives who left Tesla to form a company that recycles batteries, all of the material in batteries from everything from computers to phones to cars. And there are changes in agriculture that are happening that are about sort of rejuvenating the soils, using less water and all of that.

And so there is a groundswell of change occurring. A lot of these changes are going to come to us through businesses, through government, through governance, and we’re going to adapt to them. And it’s not necessary for everybody to get on board with a feeling that environmental action should be their top priority, because for many people, it will just become that without, without their having to really do too much about it.

Brenda: Again, in your book, you talk about Joseph Campbell’s hero’s journey, and you liken the hero’s journey narrative to how it is that we are experiencing and looking at climate change today on an individual level. Tom, tell us about your own hero’s journey. Let’s, let’s focus on you for a second. When did this path become clear to you? Where did this all begin?

Tom: So, I first really learned about what’s happening in climate back in 2003 and 2004, when my design firm, Bowman Design Group, created a museum for the National Academy of Sciences in Washington, D.C. And that meant that our climate exhibit was informed by a steering committee of some of the most eminent climate scientists in the world. That’s who my tutors were.

And I remember leaving that project feeling worried about what the future holds. And I asked one of the scientists, What do you think about this, this is 2003 and 2004, and he said, well, you know, humans aren’t stupid. Thank goodness we have time to work this out. Well, it turns out that just five years later, 2000, well, less than that, 2007, we were invited to do a second exhibit on climate change for Scripps Institution of Oceanography, which has a public aquarium.

And so, there was another steering committee of some of the world’s most eminent climate researchers. And the attitude among the researchers had utterly changed. I mean, instead of this feeling like that we have time to work this out, what they had seen is because of the economic expansion and industrialization of China, carbon emissions were climbing at a rate that exceeded what they had forecast as the worst possible case.

And I was sitting in a meeting and I mentioned just kind of casually that the folks at the National Academy had told me to pay attention to the ocean because the ocean can hold so much heat before ocean temperatures start to rise that once temperatures do begin to rise, we’ll be committed to a changing climate, a different climate for 500 to 1000 years.

And she just blithely said, oh, well, we’re part of this project that has robotic floats all over the world, and we’ve already measured warming in every ocean basin in the world to a depth of a thousand meters. Just, just imagine that, three-quarters of the world’s surface covered 3000 feet deep in water has warmed up already.

And I write about this in the book, you know, the, the term epiphany is usually used in a religious context, but the definition is, it’s a sudden intuitive insight into the reality of something. And it applied in that moment because in a heartbeat, everything I had ever known about the potential dangers and impacts of climate change just came home to roost all at once.

Brenda: Talk about a call to action.

Tom: Yeah, I drove home from that meeting thinking, can I put this toothpaste back in the tube and go back to life the way I knew it 2 hours ago. And, of course, the answer was no. And so, I began experimenting with my company to see if we could cut our emissions., and it turns out you can, and it’s easy.

I mean, it didn’t seem easy as I did it. But once I figured it out and had it measured, it’s remarkably simple. I became, as you mentioned, the EDPA’s sustainability chair. I started writing a column for Exhibitor Magazine, that I wrote for eight years. I ended up writing books, and I also began working with social scientists and scientists and economists and others to, because I looked around me and I didn’t know anyone else who worked in the communication business, who seemed to have as much sort of background in, in what the climate story was than I did.

And so, I went searching for people who did. And I sort of, I started Bowman Change because I needed a vehicle to do work that didn’t involve running a design agency.

Abby: So, Tom, what are some of the initial things you mentioned you went back to, and you did some really simple things to cut emissions. For people listening who are part of smaller companies or own companies or part of bigger companies, just so they can have something to like a next step, just real low hanging fruit. What can people do and think about?

Tom: I like to think about it as staging. What are the things I can do this week versus the things that are going to take me a quarter versus the things that are going to take me a year. And so, you look at the things you can control. Can you change your lighting? Every light in the world should be an LED now.

Plug everything in your company into power strips that you can shut off, or get the smart kind that shut off automatically if the thing’s not in use, because anything that has a chip in it is using electricity when the power is turned off. And in the average household, that can be 10% of your electricity bill, believe it or not. They call it vampire power.

The next big thing to do is look at what you’re driving. Often, the biggest percentage of a company’s emissions come from transportation. Either the company owns vehicles or, you know, you’re paying your employees for the mileage for using their personal vehicles, which of course, are beyond your control. But anything that you own, consider retiring it early if it’s not a high mileage, high MPG, really high MPG vehicle or an electric vehicle.

And I think we’re at the point now where electric vehicles are becoming commonplace enough. And we’ve learned that the cost of ownership is as low as a pretty low-cost gasoline-powered car, if you factor in that you don’t need maintenance, and electricity costs a lot less than gasoline. Those are kind of the, the easiest steps to think about.

And I would start there. And of course, now we live in a world where we can conduct an interview clear across the United States over an electronic platform, like we’re doing right now, right? And so that means all of that travel, all that air travel, all that driving, just got eliminated from my business’s carbon emissions. Those things are so simple to do. And, you know, we did those kinds of things, and we reduced our emissions by two-thirds, literally two-thirds, in a little over a year.

Abby: Just to add one thing, just because it’s top of mind on a project we’re working on; I do want to make it clear that advocating for just not being in person and the mental health things that happen when we all don’t get together, because I’m a big believer in also taking care of people and their mental health, and when you work together and you see each other. So, you know, living in a city, I get to walk around everywhere, take public transport. So, I just don’t, I just want to mention that, you know, when people are thinking about cutting emissions, not seeing each other sometimes has other ramifications.

Tom: Well said.

Abby: Now, talking a little bit more about the sustainability and the exhibits you’ve been working on over the years, it was interesting at the 50th anniversary SEGD conference this year in D.C. I’ll call them the next generation of designers, you know, have the stage and they’re talking about hardware that they’ve been using in their companies and looking at sustainability. And there was a lot of indignation from the older generation, let’s say, I’ll maybe pop you in that, the more established generation.

Tom: Yeah, I’m one of those.

Abby: Who were like, you know, no, we know this. Like, we get this. This is what we’ve been doing, as if it was something potentially new, because, you know, as the next generation come up, they find they discover things for the first time. So, it’s just part of maturing as a designer or it has been until now, when I know Brenda at university, sustainability is the hot topic that everybody now brings into their practice, and it’s very difficult. I don’t also want to make this sound like it’s an easy thing to do because it’s not, especially when, you know, we’re dealing with hardware as well, and like, how does that look? Do you feel like sustainability is just one of the very important key points in for all design now and moving forward?

Tom: Oh, absolutely. I mean, I just don’t think that the next generation of consumers is going to tolerate ignorance of sustainability or a lack of attention to sustainability. And it’s also becoming better equated with cost savings in business. We had a client that went to a lot of trade shows a year, sometimes 40 trade shows a year, and they came to us one year and said we can’t afford to build any new exhibit properties, or at least not any brand-new exhibits, you know, because they were on the, the five-year cycle, the depreciation cycle like everybody else.

You build a new exhibit and once depreciation goes to zero, you throw it away and build a new one and by then you’re sick and tired of it anyway. And so, what we decided to do was reconfigure the properties they had and recolor them. And we built odds and ends, little panels to fill in and new reception counter here and a new theater screen there.

But we discovered that those properties, those wall panels, and basic exhibit furniture remained viable and looked good, not for five years, but for 15 years before they wore out. And it turns out that this fits perfectly with a strategy that I discovered in a book called Sustainable Materials: With Both Eyes Open, and it’s a very simple rule of thumb: if something you own doesn’t use energy, use that thing for as long as you possibly can.

That’s the most environmentally efficient thing you can do with it, right, so you don’t have to make a new one. If it does use energy, but energy efficiency isn’t improving at all, use it for as long as you can because it’s still better to use a thing rather than pour energy into making a new thing. But if it uses energy and energy efficiency is improving over time, replace it more quickly because the energy savings from a more efficient product is going to exceed the energy spent creating that product.

So, TVs, refrigerators, computers, all lighting, all these systems that we use to animate our exhibit experiences fall into that latter category, but the basic properties fall into the first category. So, this created for us, you know, we got to experience the fact that this new system of preserving properties longer and reconfiguring it worked for our client. They had a, one of the fellow exhibitors came up to then and said, how do you guys afford so many new exhibits?

And she said, we don’t come look at all the show stickers on the backs of these panels, you know, and there’d be 30 or 40 stickers on a panel. And it worked for the exhibit fabricator because, the exhibit house, because they were spending time redoing the labor part, they just weren’t replacing material part of the projects. And it worked for the creative firm, that was us, because we were reinventing things all the time, and the environmental footprint was greatly decreased.

Brenda: Tom, it sounds like you’re very optimistic about upcoming decision-makers and leaders. Am I, am I gauging this correctly? Because…

Tom: Yeah, I am.

Brenda: You know, I also get, between my students and also, you know, my daughter who’s 25 and her peers. You know, there’s also a lot of folks who are just feeling defeated and who are too young to be feeling defeated. So is your take that overall, in your experience, that the folks who will be our decision makers that they are going to be feeling the confidence and the ability to, even in some cases, rebound and continue to make the necessary change with the right sort of psychology driving them.

Tom: Yes, there are people who rise to leadership positions. Not everybody does. Not everybody wants to, but the people who do, I mean, I think it’s fair to say that just about everybody in the generations you’re talking about are keenly aware that the impacts on their generations and their kids’ generations are going to be far worse than on my generation and your generation.

So, you hear all the time in surveys and in the news that younger people are really motivated and frustrated with, you know, the pace of governmental change and societal change, which is leaving them in the lurch. So, the people who rise to leadership positions, who have that mentality, are going to be much more aggressively focused on this than the prior generations were.

When I did the Caution Museum in Washington, D.C., everybody thought that it would take 30 or 40 years for power plants to switch from coal to natural gas. Natural gas has a lower carbon footprint than coal by a pretty dramatic amount, at least it was believed at the time. And everybody thought that the investment in, you know, natural gas cost twice as much as coal and these were long-lived investments, so it would be 30 years before anybody changed so we were stuck with coal for 30 years.

And then fracking happened and the price of gas plummeted to below that of coal. And in a matter of a few years, everybody switched, you know, and the thing that we can never predict is state change like that. Big changes like that, because a technology or a market factor or a consumer factor just changes the game in, overnight, in ways that we didn’t expect.

And so, I’m hopeful that decision makers, the young decision makers, are going to have opportunities that our generation didn’t have. The question is, and it’s absolutely fair on this question is how much change will we cause while we’re also in the process of cleaning things up, how bad are we going to let it get? And nobody knows the answer to that question.

Abby: Yeah.

Brenda: Let’s talk about passion. Let’s talk about what it is that you currently in your work feel passionate about. When you start your workday, every day, what is something that is really either exciting you or just really telling you, yes, yes, this is all possible?

Tom: There are a couple of things. One is very direct and one’s very indirect. I’ll tell you the direct one first. I’m in the process of designing a sustainability education center for a water and power utility company, and their primary target audience is fourth-graders on field trips, and they have challenged us to do something I’ve always wanted to do but never had a client that would do it.

And that is, can we get every insight across without having to put a single word on a wall, so that the words we have to put on the wall are there because they really need to be? But the insights are intuitive and experiential.

Abby: Can we just pause for a minute, Tom?

Brenda: We’re jumping up and down.

Abby: This sounds like the perfect client. How did you find them, how they know the visitors so well? Wow. You don’t have to spend weeks and months getting on the same page with who’s coming and how they learn and understand and play? Wow.

Tom: No, we had to spend weeks coming to understand they really meant it.

Abby: Okay.

Brenda: Yeah, right, seriously.

Tom: Right? Because every other sustainability client I’ve had has been driven by engineers and scientists and, you know, bless their hearts, scientists want you to be excited about everything that excites them. And so, they want to tell you a lot of information that bogs you down, and you can’t even see the forest for the trees anymore. And so encouraging museums and aquariums and others, utility companies sometimes, to simplify in an accurate way that gives somebody an insight that then they can do something with rather than barraging them with facts and data is hard work, and it’s always felt like a compromise. I mean, we’ve been through the entire three rounds of conceptual design iteration that are, you know, exhibits that are really thought through and detailed and we haven’t put a single piece of text on any drawing.

Abby: Fantastic.

Brenda: Wow.

Abby: Fantastic. I want to, I want to go, I want to see this, it sounds incredible.

Tom: I do, too. I mean, it looks like this could be a fun experience because by interacting with something, you’re getting the message.

Abby: Yes.

Tom: And then there’ll be some words on a screen or something that give you some context for it or tell you a factoid about it or something. But you’re going to get it. You’re going to get that it takes a lot of effort to generate electricity. You’re going to get that water is a precious resource. You’re going to get all these things intuitively. That’s pretty cool, right?

Abby: It’s really, really cool. And also, I do just want to add, seeing as you mentioned, and we’re very focused at Lorem Ipsum on media, you don’t have to necessarily have text in the media to help tell these stories.

Brenda: I love hearing this from the both of you. It’s called developmental interaction, which is a primary way that humans learn, which is by doing. Love you both.

Tom: And by mimicking also.

Abby: Mimicking.

Brenda: You bet.

Tom: And we don’t change people’s minds by explaining climate change to them.

Abby: No, no.

Tom: There was an educator I got to interview once named David Sobel, who wrote a book called Beyond Ecophobia, and he said that all their research shows that teaching kids about environmentalism isn’t the thing that causes them to become environmentalists when they grow up. The thing that hooks them and creates environmentalists is the amount of time the kids got to spend in an unstructured way in natural settings.

In other words, they had experiences that meant something to them, and because they valued those intuitive and experiential events, they treasured them, they wanted to preserve them. And that became a driving force in their adult lives. And, you know, I think back to my childhood, and that’s exactly what happened to me. So anyway, yeah, I’m as, I’m glad you’re excited by this because that’s the thing that makes me feel like I’m finally doing a sustainability exhibit that targets the general public in a way that’s going to, that might actually do a lot of good.

Abby: Yea.

Brenda: I’ll bet it will.

Abby: Have an impact and make changes.

Brenda: Absolutely amazing.

Abby: Tom, this is so enlightening in so many ways that I didn’t anticipate. I just want to thank you so much for joining us today and this challenging, thoughtful conversation.

Tom: Well, thanks to both of you. It’s really an honor to be part of this with you folks.

Brenda: I also have to say our sponsor, Paul Orselli Workshop, Paul just bought his first all-electric vehicle, and I feel like that is a necessary plug into this conversation.

Abby: It very much is. Congratulations, Paul. Thanks to everyone who tuned in today. If you love what you heard, subscribe for more episodes of Matters of Experience wherever you listen to podcasts. Make sure to leave a rating and a review and share with a friend. We’ll see you next time.

[Music]

Producer: Matters of Experience is produced by Lorem Ipsum Corp and recorded at Hangar Studios. Tune in next time for more fun discussions about experience design.

Show Notes

Books — Tom Bowman

Bowman Design Group

Sustainable Materials: With Both Eyes Open | The Use Less Group

Beyond Ecophobia — David Sobel

Transcript

[Music]

Abby: Welcome to Matters of Experience, a podcast produced by Lorem Ipsum, an experience design company headquartered in New York City. Our podcast explores the creativity, innovation and psychology driving designed experiences and encounters. If you’re new, a hearty welcome to you and to our regular listeners, thank you for tuning in and supporting our conversation. My name is Abigail Honor.

Brenda: Hello, everyone. I’m Brenda Cowan.

Abby: Before we begin, we just want to share a note from today’s show sponsor, POW!

Sponsor: This is Paul Orselli, Chief Instigator at POW! (Paul Orselli Workshop), and we’re delighted to sponsor this episode of the podcast. Please check out our website at www.Orselli.net for more information about our work as well as free resources and articles. Thanks.

Abby: Today we’re talking with Victor Torregroza. Victor is an experiential events program manager for Global Events at Intel Corp. He is a passionate pioneer of experiential marketing, and his mantra, “we eat with our eyes,” is one of my personal favorites and carries more weight as we’re reentering the world with expectations for more meaningful engagements. Hello, Victor. Welcome to the show.

Victor: Estoy tan honrado y emocionado estar aquí. I’m so excited to be here. So, thank you so much for having me.

Abby: So, Intel, Victor is a very recognizable brand. When I think about it, I think…

Brenda: Bum-bum-bum-bum.

Abby: And if that doesn’t immediately transform you to Intel, the commercial, then you really need to go and check out some of the old Intel commercials. But the product itself is really hard to market, it’s sort of invisible, what or how it does what it does to a, to a lot of us is hard to understand. I mean, for me, it’s super-duper exciting and really sci fi, but it’s still hard to quantify. So, Victor, how do you position yourselves for the end consumer?

Victor: So, what’s fascinating about Intel is we’re in the machines, we’re in the cloud. We are truly, absolutely invisible. But the technology is fascinating, and we touch it every single day. So, we bring it to life in ways that are unexpected, that make people want to care and make people want to learn more. So, technology, while it’s a part of our lives, maybe too much now, the challenge that I love about working at Intel is how do you bring that forward and how do you make people, wow, I never thought of that. Tell me more. Because it is truly fascinating.

When you think about silicon, we start with a grain of sand. I may be oversimplifying it a bit, but it truly starts from that level of nature and then through American ingenuity and what humanity is doing with technology, it’s brought out into the world in various parts of it. The cloud, when you’re shopping, in your pocket, on your laptop, it’s everywhere. and it’s truly it’s truly fascinating. And I’m a creative whirling dervish by nature. I’m not a technical genius, but it’s the challenge that keeps me totally excited about working at Intel as an experience designer.

Brenda: Victor, you describe the lens through which you work as thinking in moments. Can you tell us what you mean by that?

Victor: What I’ve come to appreciate about moments and how we design those experiences, everything is these moments that we want to capture. So, whether that moment is an audio experience or something that you smell or something that you touch, that’s the lens. It’s moments of sensory excitement, information, and delight.

Because it is how we engage with the world now. We’re all distracted. We have so many things going on. The distraction is very, very bad in my society, being raised as a polite Catholic, Spanish, Italian, in a stubborn family. But those moments, short informational nuggets of knowledge, interaction, and delight.

Abby: So, when I make experiences, I often focus on what emotion we’re trying to convey as well as the story. When we chatted, you mentioned you seek to spark purposeful joy – and I love that you use that word – joy in the experiences that you create. Can you give an example of what that spark of joy looks like?

Victor: Yes. So, there was this one moment at an enormous industry show in Las Vegas. So here we are. We’re getting ready to put on our show. Our stage is full. Maybe about 100 people in the audience waiting for that moment. And all of a sudden, boom, the lights go out. We’re in complete darkness, in a convention center in Las Vegas, the other city of lights.

So, our violinist was getting to perform, and she said, what do I do? And we said, Anna, the stage is full, you’ve got to go out and perform. People instantly started to light her up with their illuminated screens and she started to perform, and it was just, here we are, strangers in the dark at a trade show in Las Vegas, and we put out a tweet, which still is one of my most favorite. “The human spirit never loses its power.”

And people remember that tweet. They remember that moment as something that could have been terrifying. But it all worked out well, truly joyful. And it’s hard in our world today. It’s hard to convey that, yeah, as part of this business show, we want to have joyous moments because people will look at me and say, you’re insane.

Brenda: I have to ask you, why wouldn’t you then replicate with intentionality this kind of experience? I mean, literally unplugging and sort of doing something surprising, like just because of how successful the human element was, as you said, that sort of came through. Have you ever thought of, jeeze, you know, I wonder if we could replicate this in some way.

Victor: We have. And, you know, and that’s actually quite fascinating. That’s another part of our experience out in the world, now that we’re venturing out after this period of being hobbits in our homes, it’s all about having moments of joy and unplugging. So, if you’ve ever walked out, out in New York, people are, they’re not there. They have their earbuds in or their headphones on. They’re plugged into their cells. We’re not plugged in to the rest of the world.

We are taking a couple of approaches at shows, and it’s all about simplifying that experience so we can truly have that acoustic, interactive, truly sensory experience looking into each other’s eyes, listening, and having conversations. Things that we took for granted before COVID, now, simple things like that – listening, shaking hands, interacting, networking, hearing music – all these things are now joyful moments that I think people that are coming to events, libraries, museums, and experiences appreciate much, much more than ever.

Abby: I always think of it as like not being present. You know, if you’re in your device and you’re in the world of wherever your device is taking you, you’re not here with, in this case, another person. But it’s incredibly difficult, I mean, it sounds like, Victor, it took a blackout, for want of a better word, a temporary blackout in Vegas to actually make everybody go, oh, my gosh, what are we doing and how can we have a communal event? Because we all came for something. I think there’s that communal mindset of we’re all here to see and listen. And I think that those feelings and emotions are what tie us together, they’re the human connection that I would imagine in these moments that you’re trying to create, replicate, make, that’s integral, is bringing people together. Because I would imagine when you’re creating your events, you don’t want people to be so immersed in the technology that they’re not having this connection with one another, and that, that’s an interesting challenge for someone. That must be, sounds like a really tough job.

Victor: You know, as experience designers all of us here, we’re all here for the same purpose. We’re in the business of connecting people to our stories, to our brands, our history, all our cultures, and how can we enable and enrich that human connection. And it is much more challenging now because of these hard glass illuminated devices that we all have.

So, what I’m finding now, as I’m working on several big events, which I’m so excited about, but I’m taking the preschool, kindergarten, everything we’re learned as kids approach, which is simplifying and peeling back that onion of complexity and distraction and going back to simpler, more pure forms of interaction. Simple is hard, but through simplicity, we can have, I believe, better engagement, higher quality engagement. And people will remember that.

Brenda: You’re making me think about, well, so many things and one of the main things is, is that I tell my students right at the very beginning of their degree program that if we do this right, they’re going to end up being able to think like a four year old and all of the incredible curiosity and inquisitiveness and wonder that comes at that age and at that time in our lives.

And it’s very possible to be able to really reignite and reconnect, and through good experience design. You’re also reminding me of a story that I probably bore the socks off of my students with about when my daughter was actually just about that age. And I think we spent a good 45 minutes on a sidewalk looking at a crushed soda can because she just couldn’t move on from being utterly fascinated by this object.

And I was mortified at first, and I just kept trying to move her along. And then I stopped, and I realized in this moment that my daughter was showing me one of the greatest things about being human, which is utter fascination at something that, you know, is ordinary and is every day, and yet is also quite compelling when you look at it in a certain lens. So, thank you for bringing that memory back to my mind.

Victor: I love that. And I just want to touch on that moment that you shared with your daughter and the soda can. So, for the viewers who are listening to this, I am looking at a beautiful hummingbird in the California sunshine at the feeder that’s just through the window. So, I just wanted to share that little moment of wonder.

Brenda: Oh. That’s lovely.

Victor: Yes. So, it’s time for all of us as experience designers, I challenge you, I urge you. Create those moments where we can participate with each other and get back to those states of wonder that we all enjoyed as four-year-olds, as children. That is the aspiration. So, I love that you’re teaching that to your students, Brenda. I think that’s something all of us as experience designers can start to do. I’m starting to do it, and it took me many decades, but we all learned it. We have the tools. It’s time to just take those steps back to wonder, simplicity, and awe. And we don’t have to clutter it with, with collateral and gobbledygook.
 

Abby: Yeah, I couldn’t agree more, Victor. So, telling a brand story in the form of a museum is very popular for the larger brands. I think about Nike has a really, really nice, fun, small museum over there, and there’s a recreation of a car full of old sneakers, I know Phil Knight used to sell out the back of. So, you have a museum on your physical site at Intel, right?

Victor: We do.

Abby: Yeah. Tell us about that experience. What’s it like?

Victor: So, Intel was founded in 1968. We like to say that we put the silicon in Silicon Valley, but there’s this enormous print with some of our founders and the employees, and they’ve got the, you know, the giant horn-rimmed glasses, the greased hair parted on the side. It’s just this moment in time in the sixties that, to me, is just so beautiful. It’s just a blown-up photo. But you see the joy of the founders at that time founding this company that I’m so proud to work for. That’s one part of it.

The other part that I really love, they have a classroom for kids to come in and they get hands on learning and experiences on technology, on STEM. So that’s like this little beehive in the museum for students to come in, it’s free and it’s staffed by our employees. It’s a lot of fun and they have other moments throughout the museum, but like any museum, always time for an upgrade. But there are these beautiful, memorable jewels in the museum. Yeah, you can see them online, but nothing beats seeing it in person.

Brenda: I love the impulse and the intention that goes into a brand wanting to tell its story, wanting to share itself. And it sounds, because you have such a diversity of experiences that are available, and especially for kids, it sounds like at your museum, it sounds like you’re doing a really remarkable job of tapping into some of the underpinnings of the meaningfulness of this community that you’re building.

Victor: It is. And you know what’s interesting, like I went into the office this morning, I went out into this plaza that we have. It’s a beautiful courtyard in the building, and we just installed this beautiful, we call it a spark, it’s this giant cube with the logo. But as I was going out this morning, hopefully I didn’t end up in somebody’s photo, but there were people just taking pictures right there in the courtyard. It’s a nice public space, but it was just a beautiful experience, people coming back out into the world and they were just taking their photo on our campus, which is just – that’s nice. And they were probably coming to the museum to learn about technology.

Abby: So that’s actually a fantastic segue to my next question, which is about the importance of physical design. So, is sensory, physical, sensory design important in your work? Can you just tell us a little bit about that?

Victor: So, using the senses as part of design, to me is really important. I think more than ever, with all the distractions that we have, another responsibility we have as experience designers is to not annoy, but to inspire people to engage with us. And we have all of those sensory channels to do so. And I think they’re under tapped. I always think that audio pieces are really, really important. Music is always a big part of that. But there are ways, I think, that the possibilities are endless to touch the senses and sensory, it means taking off those earbuds and truly participating in the part of the event that you’re creating.

Brenda: So, let’s expand on multisensory and let’s talk about emotion. How do you plan for emotional experience in immersive design? Can you tell us a little something about your process?

Victor: Yes. No matter how large or small it is, it starts with the who. Who are the folks that you want to engage with? The why. Why is this important to them and why should they care? And then there’s the how. So, for me, it’s making sure that I’m delivering on the business objectives for the program. And once that piece of the cake is done, then it’s time to have a little fun, because people love fun environments. No matter what your title – CEO, CFO, engineer, developer – who doesn’t want a little bit of joy and fun in their lives. Most of the time, for the programs that we’re working on, because we have neighbors in that exhibit hall, it will usually come down to the eyes and the ears and the hands – to see something beautiful, to hear something absolutely amazing, besides our bum-bum-bum-bum. And to touch a piece of technology that, wow, I had no idea.

We were at the World Economic Forum a few years ago and we had a showcase. I called it, myself, The Crown Jewels. But these are the wafers. These are the technology that Intel makes that goes into the cloud, into the laptop, into the enterprises. And these are the unseen ingredients across the technology ecosystem. When people see it and you put it in their hands, they are like the crown jewels because they’re sparkly, they’re beautiful. And we don’t think of it that often, right? Because that’s what we do and that’s what we make. But we have noticed that when we do share it, it’s like, wow, I had no idea. So, pure joy, wonder, absolute amazement, blown away.

Abby: So, when you are working with your team and you’re aspiring to create these amazingly fun, joyous, simple moments, it sounds really easy, but as you mentioned, it’s incredibly difficult. And while your team are aspiring to make something phenomenal, there must be a lot of mistakes along the way. So how do you guide them? Inspire them? It’s not like they, you know, hit it out the park every time right away. So, how do you deal with some of those tougher moments, maybe where a great idea is hard to find and the team is struggling?

Victor: So, one of the best tools that I have in my toolbox as an event experience designer is the creative brief. So, I learned this about 15, 12 years ago from I will just leave her as my own version of Miranda Priestly. But, in all the best ways. So, we have all these aspirational ideas. We have budgets we have to design and build toward, and we have suppliers. So, what I learned is to crystallize the strategic foundation, the creative vision, the key takeaway, and the measurement plan, all into a, ideally a two-page brief. So, you might have a 15,000 or a 20,000 square foot exhibit that is born from a two-page informed, brilliantly concise, creative brief, because it’s the Bible for the teams to go off and build whatever needs to be built and designed.

Brenda: I have never heard anybody wax so poetic about a creative brief. That was absolutely amazing.

Victor: But Brenda, most of my colleagues in the industry. They despise it. They say, oh, I’m not going to do the creative.
 

Brenda: Really?

Victor: Yes. I have many colleagues who just refuse, they think, oh, it’s like a thesis. It’s like college. It’s very difficult to crystallize the ideas down. But many of them, they laugh at me.

Abby: Creative briefs take time and focus, and you have to eliminate a lot of things. And that enables you to come up with a great end product because you know what it isn’t and you know exactly what it is. But it’s a lot of work, and I think people don’t want to put the work in, to be quite frank, Victor.

Victor: And that’s why I mentioned my colleague, Miranda Priestly. She was ruthless as an editor, but she wanted to design an amazing product and she did.
 

Abby: Yeah. So, when we’re thinking about sort of simplicity, going back to that statement you used earlier, and eliminating that noise of extra things at events like the pamphlets and all the excess stuff that maybe you don’t need. Can you talk to us about an example of where less was more?

Victor: Oh my God, so, there’s a couple. One of the first ones, it was the Lenovo Yoga, beautiful product, and I have a Lenovo system right in front of me now. But how do you bring to life flexibility, performance, convertibility, and the idea from the agency team, born from the creative brief – oh, that was pretty good. That was not on purpose.
 

Brenda: That was good.

Abby: That was perfect.

Victor: Born from the creative brief, let’s bring out these acrobatic yoga artists who go on around town, drop the mat, and the performance begins with each other doing these beautiful acrobatic somersaults and yoga performances all around town, with the device incorporated in a purposeful manner.

This was successful. It went on for about a year and a half. We showed up at San Francisco at Moscone Center, did the same event, the same activation with the acrobatic yoga performers, and I look around and I said, Nicole, who is that? And she said, Victor, that’s the co-founder of Google. That’s Sergey Brin. I said, you’re kidding me. He was with us for about an hour and a half during this whole activation. The man’s a billionaire, and here he is spending time in this experience because it was fun. It had purpose and it was pretty simple.

Brenda: Wow. Absolutely amazing. And I just, I so appreciate example after example that you’re giving us of these very core human elements and how metaphorical they are as well, the connection, the communication, the community, because it is really very metaphorical for Intel, and what it does and how it works.

Abby: Yeah, I feel the same way and thinking about sustainability and the planet. How important for you is it to have sustainable design, understanding that the whole events industry, I know, has a long way to go? We’ve had a number of guests on talking about that it really needs to catch up quickly and stop wasting so much, and I know you’re talking about simple design definitely helps with sustainable design, but can you talk a little bit about sustainability and how you approach it?

Victor: Yes. Oh my God, Abigail, it’s so important and I absolutely agree, we’re behind and, you know, a temporary event, we become temporary polluters. So, for me, using recycled elements, reusing elements that we’ve used already, surfacing elements, furnishings, materials within the city or the town where the event will be. No giveaways, no tchotchkes, no tote bags, who needs all of that, and really putting the focus on essential moments. So, the giveaway, it’s the memory, it’s that emotion or that Instagram pic. That’s my focus. Recycle, reuse, source locally, create emotional mementos.

Brenda: I am so excited to ask you this next question, Victor. What is it, and is it even possible for you to be able to pick just one thing that is really inspiring you right now?

Victor: Wow. So, as you said that, another hummingbird came in – it’s nature. It’s going back outside. It’s going back out into the world. For me, it’s a universal feeling because all of us were hobbits and in our homes for such a long period of time. So, it’s stepping out. And I explained this to a colleague that it’s kind of like when we were kids. And it’s that first day of school and I’ve got my shined black shoes, my salt and pepper corduroy pants, my royal blue sweater, my two starched, ironed white shirt. It’s that feeling of the first day of school and going back out to the world. So, there’s innocence, there’s simplicity, and there’s awe and wonder and I’m working on a couple of projects where we’re just going to bring that in easily – air, water, greenery, things to complement the experience.

Brenda: Victor, you are amazing, truly.

Victor: Oh, I’m just a crazy human over here.

Brenda: Oh, my gosh. Bring it on. We are really fortunate to have been able to talk with you today.

Abby: Victor, yeah, the joy and enthusiasm, I think, hopefully for everyone listening has really come through. And yeah, I just want to go to one of your events, so let me know if they’re ever in town.  

Brenda: Oh, no question.

Abby: They sound phenomenal.  

Brenda: And make sure the lights go out please.

Victor: Oh, and we’ll have a violinist and I just want to say muchisimas gracias ustedes. This has been so fun. And maybe for a future one, you mentioned something with, I think it was Mike McCarthy, and I think it’s something that we all face as event designers – feeding the insatiable appetite of the content beast, a future topic.

Abby: Oh, brilliant.
 

Brenda: Oh, absolutely.

Abby: And thanks to everyone who tuned in today, if you like what you heard, subscribe for more episodes of Matters of Experience wherever you listen to podcasts and make sure to leave a rating and a review and share with a friend. We’ll see you next time.

Victor: Thanks, everyone.

Brenda: Thank you, Victor.

Abby: Bye, Victor.

Brenda: Buh–bye.
 

[Music]

Producer: Matters of Experience is produced by Lorem Ipsum Corp and recorded at Hangar Studios. Tune in next time for more fun discussions about experience design.

Show Notes

Intel Museum: Journey Through Decades of Innovation

Transcript

Abby: Matters of Experience is a project of Lorem Ipsum, an experience design company headquartered in New York City.

[Music]

Abby: Welcome to Matters of Experience, a podcast that explores the creativity, innovation and psychology driving designed experiences and encounters. Welcome back, all our regular listeners. Thanks for being here with us today. And if you’re new and enjoy today’s show, please subscribe. My name is Abigail Honor.

Brenda: Hello, this is Brenda Cowan.

Abby: Today we’re talking with the lovely Liz Nacron. She is Partner and President of Creative & Production at Live Marketing, an agency that creates highly engaging B2B and B2E events, whether in-person, virtual or hybrid. Liz has nearly 30 years of experience developing and executing live events rooted in strategic storytelling, working her way up from the ground floor to president, which I can really appreciate. She’s an active board member of the EDPA, which, for those who don’t know, is the Experiential Designers and Producers Association, where she chairs the Future Leaders Committee, serving the next generation of event professionals. Liz, welcome to our show.

Liz: Thank you very much. I’m excited to be here today.

Brenda: Liz, you were introduced to me as one of the shining stars in the events and exhibits industry, especially in the world of trade shows and what makes them great. You are especially noted for your work with the Future Leaders Committee. Describe the trade show environment from your perspective. What’s good and tell us about some of the bad also.

Liz: Well, my answer today is different than maybe what it would have been pre-COVID. Obviously, our industry has been through quite a lot, but I think at the end of the day, the trade show is still good for what the trade show has always been good for. And that is, it’s a rare opportunity where people get to come face to face to test out, learn about and experience products and solutions that brands have to offer.

The brands get an opportunity to really craft and curate the message and the story around their brand specific to that audience. It’s not just their corporate website, it’s, it’s what is this product? What does it mean to this particular target audience? And they get a chance to share that.

So that’s the good thing. I think the bad is that everyone has been through so much with COVID that they’re still very much just coming back into the face-to-face trade show event space. And so it feels like where we were before COVID, where everyone was kind of competing to have the most experiential activity or storytelling experience in their booth has kind of gone on a long pause.

And at this point people are just trying to figure out if they can even attend a trade show in a certain vertical anymore. And if they can, how can they do it but still stay within their new budget confines? So, that’s, I would say, the bad at the moment is there’s a long road ahead of us trying to get back to where we were before, but on the positive side, everyone’s craving it, and so I think it will come back. It’s just a matter of time.

Abby: So when you think about that smaller footprint, let’s say brands who continue to go to trade shows and want to invest, but at a reduced budget size, they’re looking at a much smaller square footage and when you compare it to, let’s say, a museum, which is often a large square footage, a trade show, you just don’t have much space to tell their story quite quickly. It’s sometimes difficult for a team to do. How do you navigate that conversation with your clients, Liz?

Liz: For us, we really don’t try to get our clients to do that part of the work. We’ll get on a call with them and we’ll ask them a bunch of questions, you know, everything from what are your objectives? Who’s your target audience? What is the culture of your company? What’s the tone of the story that you want to tell in your booth? What are the key messages? Do you have any product releases coming? Questions like that. We really ask them way more than we need to know. We let them talk, talk, talk, talk, talk. And then we cull it down into a five-minute story or script or experience.

We then give them something back and they go, oh my gosh, yes, that’s exactly what we were trying to say, and we would have never gotten there on our own because they’re too close to it, and they feel like they have to say it all. And so, they really rely on an agency like ours to do that, that part of the hard work for them and sort of show them the shiny thing that can come from all that, you know, valuable information that they want to convey.

Brenda: Well, it’s definitely the, the art of the craft, isn’t it? And when you define story specifically in the exhibits and events industry, are there specific elements of design or specific touchpoints that are essential to telling the story that, you know, as you’re listening to the brain dump going on, the data dump, are there specific things that you’re listening for because you know that those are going to be one of the essential or several of the essential touchpoints?

Liz: Yes. We always try to craft the story from the perspective of what are the challenges of the body that has entered your booth and sat in this seat and wants to hear what you have to offer. What are the things in their day-to-day job, life, that your brand, your product, your solution will solve for them and that’s what we’re trying to convey.

And then, the second part of that is what can they do at the end of hearing or experiencing that story to take action to help keep the momentum going and take that, you know, maybe piqued interest that we’ve created through that short story and have it lead them into a warmer conversation with a sales rep who is now being introduced to someone who just learned a little bit about how that brand’s going to help them.

Brenda: Now, this is in the museum world, in the events world, and in all of our related experiential worlds, understanding target audience is absolutely critical, and it really is like you were describing the beginning piece. How is it that you are instructing your clients to come to you with audience information? Like, how are you asking them to be able to prime you and your team?

Liz: So, that’s really where our question set typically will start is about their audience. And then we ask questions about what is that audience care-abouts? What are the things in their, you know, personal life that they typically like to do. Like we really try to dig in and understand, you know, who are these people? A lot of our clients have done persona research, and that’s really valuable too, because they’ve kind of already done some of the legwork, creating different personas and profiles, if you will, that we can then use to help us inform the story that we need to tell to those persona types.

Abby: And so, what are some of those touchpoints? So, when you think about the design that seems to be throughout all of the experiences that you craft, is it that there has to be a docent there every time? Is it that there’s an interactive? Is there something physical to take away, physical to touch? Sort of, what are some of the design touchpoints that you always try to think about and integrate into these trade show exhibitions?

Liz: First of all, what is the thing that when this prospect walks by this booth, is going to make them feel compelled to take that one step from the aisle carpet into the booth carpet. We really try to help our clients design booth experiences that have levels.

So, if it’s someone who maybe has never heard of your brand before, we want to start out with some sort of introductory experience, like, let’s set the stage about this company and this brand. Let’s give them the five-minute story and at the end of that five-minute story, they now know something they didn’t know before. And then we offer them a next step. And that next step could be, you know, do you want to participate in a demo? Great. Let me walk you over. At that point, they introduce them to a booth rep who we’re now handing over a warm lead to.

Or their next step might be, you know what? Now that I know a little bit about your company, it’s actually not a good fit. And like, thank you so much for giving me a good experience, but I’m going to keep walking down the aisle to the next trade show booth, and that’s okay too.

So, it really is, just at the core of it, that’s kind of how we, we like to design the experiences is from a distance, what do they see? What’s that experience once they get closer and then what are the activities or experience areas or storytelling activities or product demos in the booth that we can use as tools to help get that person deeper on that journey?

Brenda: So, I have to ask you, you’ve done this for so long and with so much expertise, give us an example of an experience that has lured people to the booth in just, bam, captured them.

Liz: We have a client who we help at a vet tech trade show and the vet tech audience is, is very passionate about what they do and they work really hard. So, we designed a booth experience that started with a theater area on the corner of the booth, sort of the most front facing aisle, and we created an, a schedule of content that changed all throughout the day.

We intentionally wanted to create different presentations focused on different content subject areas that would be interesting to them and ultimately invite them to come back over and over and over again. But once they came for the first time and they sat down, we put an iPad in their hands and we said, you know, from this point forward in your booth experience, you’re going to be using this iPad.

So, we started out our presentation, which was sort of an animated storytelling journey that they were following along these two animals, these two pets, a cat, and a dog. And they were making choices along the way on the iPad that helped our live presenter determine where the story was going to go. Of course, all along the way it was peppered with how this company’s products and solutions helped improve the life of this patient, which in this case was a dog or cat.

We didn’t invite them at the end of the presentation to give their iPad back and head back into the aisle. We said, your journey is only just begun. So, now take your iPad and come around to the other side of this theater booth wall, and you’re going to get to follow along in the life of this cat and dog that you just helped save.

So, they take the iPads around, and we’ve strategically placed triggers in the booth, in all the different booth areas. And we invited them to, at that point really take their own non-linear journey through the booth. And at each stop point they used the tablet to scan one of the triggers and launch a deeper dive part of the story of this cat or dog where we now really showed how that company’s product or solution made an impact on that patient.

By the end of this experience, they turned in their iPad, they answered a few questions, qualifying questions, and in exchange they were given a stuffed animal plushie version of the cat or the dog who they had helped save. And through the qualifying questions that they answered, we now knew if they were a qualified lead or not a qualified lead.

So, if someone handed us the iPad and they weren’t qualified, we handed them the plushie, we thank them, and they went on their merry way. But if they were qualified, one of our professional booth engagers strategically would say it looked like you expressed interest through your journey in X, Y, or Z. I’d like to connect you to our sales rep in this area, and they walked them over and that conversation continued.

And so, what was most amazing about this booth experience was that the average dwell time of people in this booth was 20 minutes. And for people who attend trade shows, often they’d know that’s like a really long time, especially on average for people to spend in a booth. And so, we felt like it was a huge success. The brand felt like it was a huge success, and it just provided this audience with so much information. But in just a fun, you know, storytelling way.

Abby: I think this is such a good idea because you, you got people with play, and I feel like get people playing with your product, get them enjoying your product, get them into and part of it, and then you nicely segue to the soft sell.

Liz: Yeah.

Brenda: Many, many years ago I had a student actually applying for an internship, and the student was applying to one of the larger exhibit and trade show design firms and they gave him a challenge, and the test was to take a target audience that had to go to trade shows as a part of their job, and they hated it.

They found trade shows boring. The target audience were sales reps of a very large consumer appliances company, and the student, so proud, the student knew, make it entirely about the target audience, make it entirely about the people on the floor. And the student designed a pre-show, and at-the-show, on-the-floor, and a post-show experience, that basically took these sales reps and turned them into superheroes.

And the entire design of the booth was the hero’s lair, and the whole pre-show campaign was social media, and it was all about hyping up the booth, and when they were going to meet together with the other superheroes, etc., etc.. It sounds a little corny. It was a knockout, a total knockout.

And I just keep thinking about opportunities when we get to think about the end user, when we get to think about the person on the floor or the customer at the store or whatever the case might be, the person at the museum, any opportunity for them to really feel like this story is about them. It is for them, and that it makes them feel very proud of who they are, that makes them feel like they really belong, and like the space has been customized just for them.

Liz: I do love that. And I think that, like you said, making people feel good is at the heart of it. And sometimes people at trade shows, it’s like the one time of year that they go, that they get out of the office or, or out of the clinic or out of the hospital. And so to give them a good brand experience, educate them on whatever your offerings are and make them feel good, make them feel like the hero, give them some praise and thanks is so impactful to those people.

Brenda: Do you ever find yourself in a situation where you’re having to really kind of break that down for a client that this is about, you know, the end user, that this is about the prospect and that we need to craft this experience in a way that is very welcoming and makes them feel like they’re a part of the story, that they belong?

Abby: Right, not about the product and the features of the product.

Brenda: Mm-hmm.

Liz: Yeah, it’s, it’s a challenge because they start most of them with the products and the features. And that’s important. And we need to know that. But we really have to hone in on sort of that overarching message and the what’s in it for them. And so we really, you know, kind of like I said at the beginning, we let them give us all of that, but then we sort of strong-arm them into the story we know they need to tell.

And once they hear it, you know, the first draft, they go, oh, wow, you know, you got all the product and feature stuff in there. But it’s not about that. And they see at that point, like, you know, it’s like light bulb goes off. Wow. Okay. So we can do both. We can talk about our products and its features, but we can do it with this thematic overlay or this journey that we’re taking them on or this just, you know, kind of exciting story that we’re telling. And oh yeah, the features and benefits are mixed in there too, but we’re not like whacking them over the head with it.

Abby: I’m thinking about the layers, as you just mentioned Liz, of storytelling. There’s obviously layers of ways to tell the story, and I feel like a lot of the best experiences include a human component. When I think about the Rembrandt Museum in Amsterdam, when I was there, they had somebody showing us how to do the printing press, and there was a person, a docent, showing us how to mix all of the, the paint colors and where their origins were and what they were made from.

And it was a lot of hands-on experiential learning, which were actually really brought the experience of visiting that museum to life for me, me and my family. And it reminded me how important this human component is. And so there’s such an essential role in a museum. And I know from my experience with the trade shows, having designed a number of booths, they’re really important when they’re telling the story for people at a trade show. Can you talk a little bit about that human component?

Liz: Yes, and it’s funny what you were just talking about made me think of something else, too, and they kind of go hand in hand. So, speaking about technology, just for another moment, one of the big advances in technology on the trade show floor has been through LED, and LED screens have brought beautiful canvases and immersive environments, and theatrical backdrops into booths that were never possible before.

You know, there’s always been a struggle with projection and holograms and things like this on trade show floors because of the ambient light, and with LED screens, there’s so much saturation of color and detail that you can turn a canvas into anything. And so that’s been really exciting and has provided a lot of amazing storytelling opportunities because now we can put a live presenter in front of one of these screens and we can change the scene 25 times.

We can have them move from their home to the doctor’s office to the hospital, to a car, and back home again. And they didn’t move, you know, five feet. But the wall around them, the LED screen behind them, the graphics behind them came to life and helped us tell that story. Speaking about professional actors, talent, in trade show booths, It is a tough sell, but usually once a brand sees it, they get it.

Again, these are just people, and if we want to have them really sit down and understand something, we need to humanize it. And what better way to do that than to put another human in front of them who can look them in the eye and get their reactions and feedback in real time and just talk to them and tell them a story.

And then on the flip side of it, it’s like you’re at a trade show, you see booth theaters. There’s, there’s 25, 50 booth theaters on this trade show floor. So, you know that there’s people that will sit down and watch a thing. So rather than be like everybody else, why don’t we create something different and more experiential and so that’s how we can kind of tip someone who’s maybe like part way there, like they’re open to a theater, but they’ve never done anything like that in their theater before.

And so, there’s just a range and it’s all about, you know, who’s the audience and who’s the brand and what’s the right fit and what’s the right balance. But if you can strike that right balance, it can make a huge impact. And people, once they kind of see that twinkle in the audience’s eye who are watching something that they definitely did not expect to experience on a trade show floor, it’s, it’s just awesome and so gratifying.

Brenda: We’re really curious to know, we’re talking so much about all of the great stuff and when things go really well and I’m really curious to hear about some of the, some of the worst things that you’ve seen, like Liz, what can go wrong?

Liz: Well, with a huge reliance on technology, there also comes a huge risk, right? So, I was speaking about beautiful LED screens. But when your whole story is is reliant on that, there’s definitely a risk involved in in something happening with the LED screens as an example.

Abby: Not that that ever happened to you of course, Liz, not that you’re drawing on any experience.

Brenda: Never happened!

Liz: Right? No, no!

Brenda: This was somebody else.

Liz: Exactly, I would say another example, it’s a little bit different, but we had a client come to us and they had an idea which they were all excited about to do, kind of like a game showy presentation, and it wasn’t the right audience and it kind of fell flat. And so, we were able to help them execute it. But once it came to life on the trade show floor, it was really not the right fit. And that was disappointing.

Oh, gosh, I mean, like I said, there’s so many things that can go wrong. We did a thing many years ago. We had kind of a live TV studio that was going on on the trade show floor in the center of this massive booth. And we had two professional presenters who were, they never, we never took a break. They were either always on together or one relieved the other. But it was constant for 10 hours, for five days straight. Well, of course, on like day three, one of them got food poisoning, which could totally happen to anyone. And so you’re like, oh my gosh, what do we do?

So luckily, you know, we had backup presenters in place, and we were able to have someone kind of get ready quickly and step in. But that’s what I say about the events industry. It’s like, you know, something’s going to go wrong. It always does. And if it doesn’t, you feel exceptionally lucky. So, you just have to always kind of be thinking about what are the two, three, four or five layers of things that could happen here.

Let’s, let’s try to plan for those and then when we get surprised by something that wasn’t one of those five, we’ll just deal with it in the moment. And that’s the beauty of us as event professionals is: we know how to, you know, work through those moments in the best way possible and come up with creative solutions.

Abby: And it keeps you fun. You clearly love it, and so…

Liz: Oh, definitely.

Abby: Right, it’s, it’s, it’s who you are. So, you chair the Future Leaders Committee serving the next generation of event professionals. So, what’s some advice you give young people coming into this industry, and what are you seeing that excites you about this generation, this next generation?

Liz: Wow. I’ll start with the second part of that. What excites me is that they’re not afraid to tell you what they think and, what they want and what they need.

Abby: I think, wait a minute, I think Brenda knows a little bit about that, teaching profession.

Brenda: Yeah, I’ve never experienced that.

Abby: No, no, no, not afraid.

Brenda: They’re a mystery.

Liz: It could be a challenge, but I appreciate it. It’s like, let’s just get to the point. I may not agree, and I may not be able to do all those things, but now I know what you need and what you want and what you care about, and that’s progress. So, I love that about them, and I think it’s refreshing, frankly.

I was just on a planning meeting today with our Future Leaders committee, and we’re talking about an upcoming event. And I just said to them, all right, if we were sitting in a room with the more experienced people in our industry and you could get on stage and educate them or share an insight with them, what would it be?

What do you want to tell, you know, the rest of us that have been in this industry for a while and some of their answers were really interesting and not at all what I expected, and I loved that. So, I’m just excited about, about that. And also, their creativity. I mean, they’re just thinking outside the box. They’re bringing new ideas.

They’re not afraid to, to bring new ideas. And I think it is so timely to have so many fresh faces in our industry. And I’m also surprised that there are so many people that are interested in our industry. I mean, we need a lot more. The future of our industry will require it, but there’s definitely some, some wonderful, you know, younger generation out there coming up into the ranks.

Abby: So, Liz, thank you for a unique glimpse into your world of events and sharing your experience in such a candid and honest way with us today.

Liz: Thank you. It was my pleasure. It was wonderful to talk with you both.

Brenda: It was wonderful talking with you.

Abby: It was. And thanks to everyone who tuned in today, if you like what you heard, subscribe for more entertaining episodes of Matters of Experience. Make sure to leave a rating and a review and share with a friend. We’ll see you next time.

[Music]

Producer: Matters of Experience is produced by Lorem Ipsum Corp and recorded at Hangar Studios. Tune in next time for more fun discussions about experience design.

Show Notes

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Transcript

Abby: Matters of experience is a project of Lorem Ipsum, an experienced design company headquartered in New York City.
 

[Music]

Abby: Welcome to Matters of Experience, a podcast that explores the creativity, innovation and psychology driving designed experiences and encounters. If you’re new, a warm welcome to you and to our regular listeners, thank you for tuning in and supporting our conversation. My name is Abigail Honor.

Brenda: Hello, everyone. I’m Brenda Cowan.

Abby: Today we’re talking with Andrea Hadley-Johnson, who is an award winning creative producer and curator who currently works as the artistic program manager for the National Justice Museum, NJM, in Nottingham, England, developing exhibitions and creative interventions that explore ideas of crime, justice and injustice. Andrea, I love the description of your work as creative interventions, and I’m looking forward to this conversation. Welcome to our show.
 

Andrea: Thank you so, so much for inviting me. It’s a wonderful invitation.
 

Abby: So, Andrea, you and I share a similar background in some ways. We are both from England, but I know that we also share a little bit of a training background, you know, you trained as an artist at university, and so did I. So, tell us about the direction you took after training at college and how you ended up working in museums.

Andrea: So, I knew that I needed to do something creative, but when I left school, I really didn’t know what that might be. I studied textiles and fine art together for five years, actually, and felt like I’d found my tribe. I felt like I’d slotted in with people that were exploring and playing and experimenting. So, I left that course sort of full of ideas and passion for materials and processes, and I thought, that’s it, I’m an artist now, but it didn’t quite work out like that.

I sold a few little bits of work here and there and realized I didn’t know how to make a living as an artist. And I got poorer and hungrier and sort of stepped in intuitively to a job styling with a small interior design company and really a career of styling and interiors grew from there before my career change into museums many, many years after that.

Brenda: Andrea, in your museum life, when were you first exposed to human-centered design? Like how did you first start to include planning for people in the work that you’re doing?

Andrea: So, I have always worked openly. Always. I think people generally are a big part of my creative process. But it was about ten years ago that at Derby Museums, we began to remake the Silk Mill, which was an industrial museum that had been mothballed. And working alongside Hannah Fox, who was leading that program, we began to explore human-centered design, person-centered design, design thinking.

I don’t like really fixing and thingifying some of the processes because there’s a freedom in being able to understand that process and putting people at the heart of a project and standing and learning together what people might want to think, feel and do in a space or with a theme. But it is a human-centered design methodology that we began to learn together as a team, and it was it was an extraordinary process.

Brenda: So, was this just a natural part of how you think and operate, or was this something that you studied sort of more intentionally?
 

Andrea: I think there is a part of me that, as I sort of alluded to there, has always playfully explored and experimented with people. So, for me, part of any creative process is the what if, what if this happened instead? Or what if this person held it? Or what if? And intentionally human-centered design was put into the Museum of Making process so people out in the community were invited to come and remake the museum with us, and so that, that was a way of working that we could study and learn and improve to make that museum together with the people of Derby.

Abby: So, you studied art, you popped out, you tried to earn a living. It was super-duper tough. Where did you go next? And just talk a little bit about that experience and how you think it informs where you’re at now?

Andrea: Well, it was a tough time, 1989 was when I graduated and it was tough, but I’d seen a job advertised for recent graduates working for this independent entrepreneur. It was like a mini Conran shop in Nottingham. And we came together, a group of us that were creatives. Basically, it was working in that shop selling beautifully designed products for the home. So, it was an interior design store and I got to design some of the window displays and really enjoyed it and felt like that was an extension of my practice.

And then I moved into an organization called Habitat, I don’t know whether you know of Habitat.

Abby: Yeah, yeah, I know Habitat, I’m very familiar.

Andrea: Working in one store in Nottingham, and again, it was about experimenting with product, it was curating that store and I was promoted each year in that company. So, I worked across the region, I worked in projects in Italy and Iceland and France. And I got to a point in that career where I had loved it and I had all these incredible experiences and worked with people across Europe. It was wonderful. It was a real privilege to work there. But I wasn’t learning anything anymore and I literally got itchy fingers, as well. I wanted to be on the floor. I wanted to be with the products and the people that I wanted to be observing and watching how people navigate themselves around these beautiful environments.

So, I decided to go back to college. So, in my mid-thirties and I’d seen this link across to presenting products and presenting objects. And thought I would try my hand at museum studies. So, I did the course at Nottingham and to suddenly have to slow down and really read and think and analyze was a, was a different way of being for me. But I embraced it. I really loved it and I learned such a lot that I could see very clearly those parallels between my first career, you know, observing how people would pick something up and make sense of it in a gallery or a museum or a shop, you can see that those, those connections are very, very clear. What connects human beings with things in retail is not so different to what connects our heads, hearts, and hands in galleries and exhibitions.

Brenda: So, Andrea, I’ll have to say lovingly talks about hands, hearts, and minds of objects. And that’s how Andrea and I met. I got, a sort of an introduction to Andrea through the executive director of the Happy Museum Project in the UK. And Andrea, I think I was your very first Skype call ever.

Andrea: You were.

Brenda: I haunted Andrea. I got a hold of her, and I said, hello, I’m this lady in New York City. I do studies with objects, and I absolutely must come to the Derby Museums, which is where Andrea was at the time. And I said, please let me come and do a study. And Andrea was open arms, and we did some really brilliant work out there talking with people in the Derby Museum and Art Gallery about Objects of Love, which was a brilliant exhibit initiative that Andrea had created, where people were coming in, bringing objects that in one way or another represented love to them. And I got to interview the people and the meanings of the objects. It was absolutely brilliant. But that’s when Andrea and I met for the first time.

Andrea: Oh, that one was at the Museum and Art Gallery, and yeah, Brenda, it was amazing, actually, that week was amazing. And I have to say I met someone recently that was interviewed by you and the team, and she said she still thinks about that moment when she shared her object and you, and then seeing other people engaging with it because it was really special, really emotional for everybody, a really important piece of work.

So, it sat within the Objects of Love, Hope and Fear gallery, and that was the last project I led at Derby Museum. So, I was asked to redesign or reinvigorate the Victorian part of the museum using a collection of objects that had been looted and stolen from around the world and landed in the museum like they do. And it was quite terrifying really, because these amazing, interesting, important belongings had been in the museum store for many, many years, or decades.

And I was working for a short time with an artist called Sonia Barrett, and she was moved to tears in the museum store and said it was the first time of being in the museum where she’d seen objects that connect to her cultural heritage. So, I knew how sensitive this project would be and I really didn’t want to get it wrong. And I really wanted to work with as many people as I could openly to explore where the comfort, where the discomfort was.

So, I decided that a way to do it would be to call out, with a provocation, what three things connect people across the world. I think if I remember right, it was about three and a half thousand of these little cards and tweets came back and they were emotions and they were actions and they were behaviors. So, we started to play with these responses and build a thematic analysis on the gallery floor that people could come in and be part of that process.

And then the other thing was this desire not to get it wrong, really, to think, well, how might we share these objects before the gallery is developed with the people of the city? So, I took objects out on the streets, and I tried to connect the historic object with a contemporary counterpart. So, there were some ancient, I think they were Nigerian, combs that I took with a colleague to a barber shop. Sometimes we walked up to a cafe with bowls or utensils and sat in the cafe and people would come to us and say, what have you got there? And then we could, this interesting dialog would begin. But it was about listening and hearing what people’s thoughts and feelings were, rather than telling them what the object or the belonging was.

There was one really very beautiful example of an object being, where lived experience came in to identify what an object was. There’s a little basket that had been woven from reeds and a lid that had become disconnected from it in the museum store, and no one really knew what they were. And someone, this amazing man we were working with, he was volunteering, and he was seeking asylum in Derby at the time, and he looked at this little basket and he said, I know what that is, it’s a foraging basket and I would have used that. I used one similar when I was a child. He told us about how he used the basket and what he would have collected in it. And then we got this basket sent to a conservator and they analyzed the basket, and they found a tiny wing of an insect inside the basket and researched this insect, and it was only found in that part of the world where Empson had grown up. So, there was this wonderful mix of lived experience and an expert knowledge and research that collided in the most beautiful way.

Abby: Well, I know we have a lot to unpack there, Andrea, there was a lot that you hit on, a nd the first is that idea of collaboration, which seems so important, especially when you’re talking about all of these sensitive topics that I, I see you naturally migrate to. You have this very sort of open-ended creative process, you know, when it seems to come to the brainstorming or what forms the exhibition will actually take. Can you tell us the story, because when you just painted the picture of going into the community, that’s difficult. Can you tell us the story of when you went into the barber shop?

Brenda: And can you begin by explaining how it is that the museum allowed you to take a collection object outside of the museum and to the barber shop?
 

Andrea: Oh, yes.

Abby: You stole it, didn’t you, Andrea? It’s time for confession time.

Andrea: My pockets are full. Well, actually there was a really, that, a gallery that I had worked on for Derby Museums the year before, it was called Notice Nature Feel Joy, but again it was co-produced and it was a natural history gallery and I had wanted to not cover everything in, in acrylic or glass and had this really interesting conversation with a curator at the time who said, well, you can’t have those things without a case over the top.

And it was a tiger skull that I’d wanted to place. And we had this fantastic, and it stays with me, conversation where that person said, it’s people like you that will ruin these objects and then no one will ever get to see them in the future. Quite an extreme thing to level. But I started by saying how many tiger skulls are there in the region, in museums? And it was like, I don’t know, hundreds and hundreds, and I wanted to know if this one was really special and what would happen if someone took this skull every single day for a year? What would happen?

So that, actually that skull went on the wall and it was it was perfectly fine, and it wasn’t really a risk. The risk, I think, is not sharing the collection. That’s the risk. And building that relationship and enabling the team to feel like it was okay because some of the people that I was working with hadn’t worked like that before, therefore, they were fearful. So, to share the benefit and to celebrate the beautiful things that were beginning to happen was how I was able to influence objects leaving the museum.

So, the first object was a comb going to a barber shop. So, it was this beautiful wooden carved comb and I trotted off to a barber shop, dead excited, this is going to be amazing, and suddenly stopped at the door and thought, oh yeah, it’s all men, and I opened the door a little bit and I could hear voices and there was a lot of chat, but it didn’t understand the language or languages that were being spoken.

So then for me there was another fearful, oh, what if they tell me to leave? And I don’t understand that I’m not supposed to be there because we don’t share a language. What if I say something and the man inside don’t understand me? So, there’s this big flurry of, oh my goodness, what if I get it wrong? But took a step further, took a step further and actually sharing the objects was incredible.

And then someone new arrived and they identified and were very excited that they could recognize some carvings on the comb, and it was from Ethiopia, and we were invited back and got these beautiful photographs of the wooden combs next to contemporary combs, which sparked another idea, and that was to take some of these things into people’s homes to really explore how to un-other the way that people were looking at the objects before they went into their plinths and their vitrines, these ordinary, extraordinary or extraordinary ordinary belongings that had been in the museum sore. When they were placed in people’s hands and they were out in the community with similar objects from a different era, it absolutely cut through all of the, all of the nonsense that happens sometimes with museum objects.

Abby: Andrea, you’re so inspirational with the work you do and the way that I think you don’t realize how courageous and bold you are. It’s so charming that you went in there and without language to begin with, were able to explain. And how did it work? Did they come and actually visit the museum just out of interest?

Andrea: Oh, wow. Yeah. It was incredible to see then, along the way. So, what developed and again is quite iterative is the way that these galleries develop, one needs to, of course there are milestones and dates when things have to be complete, but absolutely within that we need to plan the room to play and to totally respond to what people are saying and doing and how they’re feeling in those spaces.

And the purpose for that originally, Objects of Love, for me was how might that strength of feeling and care that that people have for an object of their own, that the resonance that it has, is that something that could be translated across into a museum where people have that same level of connection.

People came in to help clean the objects and we started to hear people talking about their objects. So, each phase of the project, these beautifully cleaned and loved and careful things felt like they’d been re-ignited. And hearing people come back in and say, oh, where’s that small model boat that I cleaned, that’s mine, and observing people, bringing in family members to share, that was beautiful.

Brenda: And Andrea, I am remembering interviewing one of your curators at Derby about Objects of Love, and she was talking about her experiences throughout the galleries at the museum and she spoke with so much love and so much tenderness and so much gentleness about the objects. And she talked about their spirituality and how it is that they almost speak with her, and I just thought, you know, here’s somebody who really, really gets it. I hope that she was not a curator who ever gave you a hard time. But if it had been the case, she was completely converted.

Andrea: I think, I think that the hard time is good as well, isn’t it? When people challenge, it progresses things for the whole, for the whole organization and provocations, playful provocations, the what ifs, the how might wes, feel to me often that they’re magnetic. Once we start moving around or introduce prototyping or flipping things on their heads to see them through a different lens or from a different perspective, that’s when the really good stuff happens.

Abby: So, you mention un-othering the belongings a lot in your works to enable us to see them differently. I believe you have a really great story; we were talking about your recent exhibition. Is your exhibition called Darkness?

Andrea: Yeah.

Abby: So, this is at the National Justice Museum in Nottingham. Can you sort of talk us through that in relation to the fact that you, you see that engagement is absolutely necessary to connect with people via these provocations? Chat a little bit about the pistol.

Andrea: So, this project began about 18 months ago with this iconic photographer. His name’s Brian Griffin. He’s a super talent and his work is sort of infused with surrealism, I’d say. And Brian and I have worked together before, and he came up to Nottingham to explore the museum with me and we started to talk about some of the object collections, and we went into the museum store.

We were moving around and sort of got this long list of things that Brian perhaps would like to photograph. So, we had, I think there were 12 objects to select from. Brian has often worked with props, but these were the real deal. These were artifacts that had been used and they had a resonance around crime, law and punishment and the brutality of some of the stories that, or the connotations connected to those objects: brutality and trauma. And so, we did this call out for people to come and join the project, and they selected their object and people placed these objects on or around their body. And we ended up with this extraordinary – I think they’re extraordinary – sequence of 12, I’ve called them object person portraits.

And one of the objects in the collection was a pistol. Don’t know what year the pistol came into the museum collection, I think it was in the 1970s. It wasn’t necessarily a contemporary pistol. And right at this stage of installation, a colleague said, actually, I think that’s a safeguarding issue. And we, we can’t show some of them or all of them, and particularly the pistol because of gun crime emerging in the UK, you know, there’s been knife crime. It’s a serious issue. We’re a National Justice Museum, there’s some amazing work that the learning teams do with schools or young people that might be at risk of getting involved in knife crime. And it isn’t something that we’d mess around with.

We had those conversations. It was a very serious, within the play and within the experimentation. It matters. It really matters that we have those conversations. For me, it was censorship, and for me it was an issue around, well, what is the point of having that pistol in our collection if we can’t use it? So, yeah, it was a really big challenge and actually it, I had a real wobble about my practice at that point of yeah, working like this, working so openly, these fluid, meaningful, representative conversations that we have with people are so important and it’s, it’s constant, the dialog is constant, and we are responding. I am responding accordingly all the way through.

And then had some more conversations about, well, actually, if it’s a safeguarding issue for someone to see a photograph of the pistol with somebody in a non-provocative pose, then what is happening in the museum when people walk past the gallows and what is happening when people walk past repulsive things like a scold’s bridle that would have been placed over a woman’s head with a metal plate in her mouth to stop her speaking in medieval times.

If we look at that one image and that decision through that very rigorous process like we have, then we need to step back and look at the whole museum, thinking about trauma informed practice. But having seen the event launch and hearing what people said about it and hearing how it provoked new thoughts, it felt like the building was fizzing and popping with these incredible moments of ignition and connection.

Brenda: Andrea, you said once that, you know, if you’re going to be in the business of museums, that you need to see social justice as your business, as your responsibility. And I love how it is that you see museums as a critical point to bring relevant subjects together to bring social justice.

Andrea: Yeah, I suppose from my personal experience, my dad grew up in care in the, well he’s 80 this year, so he grew up in care from a baby to the age of about 16, and then at the end of that process he was street homeless. He didn’t have anywhere to go. He didn’t have anywhere to be. But he used to say to me, if you have a loaf of bread, you have enough to give half to somebody else. And this is this is a kind of mantra that he’d always have as I grew up.

And there’s something about the practice and the privilege. I have a privilege to be in the job that I’m in. It’s a privilege for me to be able to be with those things and develop those projects and to coach and develop and, and work beside all these amazing people, it is my responsibility to dismantle exclusive practice in order to, for that institution to become more inclusive.

You know, people talk about virtue signaling and performing inclusivity, but it’s got to be really, it’s got to happen, and it’s got to change. And it is a vital moment of agitation and flux. Post-COVID, there are opportunities to do things differently, and we have to just do them, not sit and talk about them. It doesn’t take very much to hop out onto the steps of the museum and have a conversation with people to test an idea. That isn’t courageous. That’s just about being a human being connecting with another human being.

What people say, what people offer, are the essential ingredients for the future of that collection. So, researchers in the future aren’t going to come back into the museum and see the same stories and the same people presenting as the most important. Equitable practice comes from tipping the status quo and actively dismantling the barriers. They don’t just dissolve. You have to get out there and do that.

Abby: Wow. Andrea, thank you so much for sharing your experiences with us. As we discussed, it’s so important to give ideas time to shape, to trust your inner voice, and I know to be bold and thoughtful in our practices whilst breaking down these institutional barriers. It’s a lot to do, but as you said, rewarding work and kind of what we all signed up for. So, thank you so much, Andrea.

Andrea: Thank you so much. It’s been an absolute pleasure sharing and listening and being together. Thank you.

Abby: And thanks to everyone who tuned in today. Please subscribe for more episodes of Matters of Experience wherever you listen to podcasts and make sure to leave a rating and a review and share with a friend. Take care and see you all next time.

Brenda: Be well everyone.

[Music]

Producer: Matters of Experience is produced by Lorem Ipsum Corp. and recorded at Hangar Studios. Tune in next time for more fun discussions about experience design.

Show Notes

National Justice Museum

Derby Museums

Museum of Making | Derby Museums

Objects of Love, Hope and Fear: a World Collection – Derby Museums

Transcript

Abby: Matters of Experience is a project of Lorem Ipsum, an experience design company headquartered in New York City. 

[Music]

Abby: Welcome to Matters of Experience, a podcast that explores the creativity, innovation and psychology driving designed experiences and encounters. If you’re new, hello and welcome. And to our regular listeners, thank you for tuning in again and supporting our conversation. My name is Abigail Honor.

Brenda: Hello everyone. This is Brenda Cowan.

Abby: So today we’re talking, Brenda, about venues that are designed exclusively to tell digital immersive stories. You know, I think they’ve evolved a lot recently out of the success of the multiple Van Gogh exhibits, and they’ve had significant success and love or hate what you saw when you got there, they’ve really created an opportunity which marketers, entrepreneurs, technologists, experience designers like me are really excited to reproduce in many different forms.

So today we’re chatting with Brian Allen, who oversees the creation and development of unique themed content, as well as architects state-of-the-art technological systems and frameworks. Co-founding Illuminarium, Brian designed and built multi-sensory immersive venues and content. Through his work producing Emmy Award and Cannes Lion-winning creations, virtual and augmented reality applications as well as location-based experiences, Brian has become a visionary in the world of immersive. Brian, welcome to the show.

Brian: Really happy to be here.

Brenda: Brian, you had a very unique upbringing. Can you tell us about your dad and how he introduced you to experiences?

Brian: My father was a set designer and a lighting designer, so at a very young age I was in a scenic shop. I was backstage in the theater constantly trying to figure out how things worked. And along these lines of experiences and seeing theatrical productions, seeing TV studios or being up in control booths, I was infinitely exposed to sort of how the sausage is made, so to speak, and it seems to have led me to my career and my drive to create and put on experiences for people, and that’s where I get the most joy.

Brenda

So, I’m really curious, Brian, something that you talk about is about how democratized the experiences are that you create. Can you tell us what you mean by that?

Brian: What we mean by democratizing experiences is not only access to experiences or accessibility of the experience, but I think it’s also about how you can be relatable to as many people as possible. It’s about giving people access and transporting people to places they may not be able to go or may not afford to go to. At Illuminarium, we used that tagline quite a bit, where we would put on shows that were revolving around a safari experience or a walk on the moon and create that emotion, create that memory for people to have a lasting effect.

Abby: So how did this whole technology side, you know, the digital side of the work come into your life, the dark side? When did that sort of like beckon?

Brian: It really started with photography and filmmaking, and I was immensely curious all the time. I took things apart. I learned how to work with my hands, which I think is crucial in this industry, in this business, and this sort of drive to understand how things worked. And after I graduated university, I ended up working at a production studio in New York called Radical Media.

And at that time we didn’t even use the word immersive. I think we called it experiential or experiential marketing, and brands would come to us with ideas and they didn’t want to just create commercials or TV spots or radio ads. They wanted experiences. They wanted a place where consumers could come and touch and feel and smell and interact with whatever product was being offered.

So, we started dreaming. We started dreaming really big. And if we didn’t know how to do something, we would just continue to research it. Trial and error, prototype things. And I think what it did more than teach me about technology was it taught me how to fail. And to me, that’s almost more important because technology is changing every single day, every single hour, and it’s almost more important to understand how to rapidly prototype something, and to get to the end product you have to go through many, many failures, you know, small and large. And so, I’m, it’s driven by this sort of endless curiosity about technology, experience, and creative.

Brenda: So, there’s a lot of human psychology in the work of advertising, connecting people with ideas and things through experiences and using emotion, curiosity, memory, these elements that you’ve been speaking about. What’s the overlap between your work in advertising and what it is that you’re doing here with these immersive environments?

Brian: You have to have this understanding of the human senses. You have to have the understanding of human emotion and how to sort of tease those things out by the way of pictures, video, lighting, scent, sound. You know, I think even before I was working in sort of immersive and location-based entertainment, we would always talk about, okay, well, what is this going to smell like?

What is this going to feel like? What happens when I walk up to it? And that’s really what’s going to drive your experience to the next level, bringing out as much of those thought-provoking, emotion-provoking elements within that experience.

Abby: Why do you think brands wanted to move into this area as opposed to stay where they were doing what they’re doing? Why is it such a powerful space to be in?

Brian: I think they’re beginning to realize that these things are much more powerful because I am physically there, I’m in-person, I’m with other people. It’s sort of a communal experience. It’s a shared experience. It’s something I can bring my partner or my friends to, and I can touch, I can feel, I can smell it. It’s sort of activating my senses beyond my sight and my hearing. That’s going to have a much more powerful impact to me than a 30-second spot.

Abby: So, when we talk about communal experiences, because I was just in a movie theater of all things, and despite loving being there with people, it’s often a double-edged sword. I’ll leave the listener to fill in the blank there.

Brenda: No, I want to hear more about this, Abby.

Abby: Let’s just say some people are about to have a fight. Some people kicking chairs, making too much noise. I was not involved with any of this raucous, but it was a little distracting from the film itself. So, how do you create successful communal experiences? Because I’m sure there’s some challenges.

Brian: To me, it’s all about setting the tone. We call it a palate cleanser. What is this sort of transitional space that’s going to allow you to sink in and be open to this experience? And I think of an experience if it’s powerful enough, if it has true spectacle within it, you’re able to kind of let things go, and you’re so in awe or so moved by what’s happening that you’re kind of, you know, maybe looking around and saying, did you just see that? Is it, are my eyes deceiving me? You have this sort of very emotional reaction with the people that you’re with, which is, in essence, sometimes more powerful than the creative itself.

Brenda: So, awe, as an experience, is pro-social. It’s really fascinating what happens with human beings when they are in nature, when they’re in something incredible like Illuminarium, the spaces that you create, it actually puts people in a perspective of wanting to, just like you were saying, have that did you just see that those experiences are very, very natural and you clearly tap into them beautifully.

Abby: I want to talk a little bit about Illuminarium. We’re talking about it sort of abstractly. Can you you know, just in a couple of words, Brian, describe its mission and what it’s trying to do.

Brian: Illuminarium is a projection based, immersive experience that plays out over two different spaces. At Illuminarium, we layer different technologies to sort of activate all of those senses. So, there’s a haptic system in the floor that generates low-frequency vibration. There’s a scent delivery system that every show has a signature scent. There is a spatial audio system that allows us to beamform audio, which, which essentially means I can place different sounds in the physical space without you having to wear any hardware or anything like that.

We sort of set out to almost give the illusion of reality to, to transport you to a different world, to a different environment. We also have an interactive system that’s sort of a person tracking system that allows us to activate or generate content depending on where you move in the space, which contrasted with maybe something like the Van Gogh experience, we sort of try to amp that up a little bit and use these various technologies on top of that to suspend your disbelief, right, to, to allow you to not realize that you’re in an air-conditioned building in Las Vegas or Atlanta. It was a really interesting format for us to work within. And I think it had challenges, right?

It’s really hard to have a beginning, middle, and end, a sort of linear narrative, when you can’t control someone’s attention. How can I have or convey a narrative, a storyline where there is, are characters and there’s things happening, no matter where I am in this space? I think it’s interesting from a storytelling standpoint in these types of formats, the sort of path that my mind goes down to take advantage of this opportunity is foundationally rooted in something like a Choose Your Own Adventure book.

I think about the use of interactive technology, the use of real-time technology, where it allows me to create content based off of somebody’s movement in real time. And that to me is really interesting because not only is it interactive, but it becomes personalized.

Brenda: Thinking about real-time and thinking about the nature of storytelling, I’m really curious to hear about the good old analog human being that you incorporate within the story. And I’m really curious if your people that you have in your experiences, are they storytellers themselves? Do you consider them storytellers or are they directional devices to help people follow the pattern and the flow? Are they scripted? Can you tell us a little bit more about how do you integrate in a seamless way a human being within this incredible technological spectacular?

Brian: So, there’s a smaller space in Illuminarium, and that’s where you meet your guide. And the guide is usually a human. So, another character of the story. So, in the space show, it’s an astronaut, and the human element is really important in that context because it sort of makes you feel connected to the content, right? So, you’re sort of like having this character break the fourth wall so that not everything is in the digital realm.

What we try and do is, you know, they have a script, but we often encourage these actors and actresses to add their own personal touch to these, these scripts. You know, there are certain things we have to hit, whether they be sort of, you know, rules and regulations. But even the rules and regulations are sort of branded within this story, right?

So, you know, don’t run and jump because there’s no gravity on the moon, which makes it a little more easier to hear and you almost start tricking people because they’re not necessarily hearing your safety procedures, but they’re being entered into this, into this story. You know, I view that person, that character, almost as this like shepherd through the narrative.

And I think it’s really important, no matter how digital and interactive and real-time, something becomes, you always have to have that sort of human element.

Abby: But is this now a beast you feel you have to satiate? Because it isn’t a museum or an institution linked to a specific mission. So how does this type of experience evolve, and who decides what’s next, what stories you’re going to tell, and how much is dictated by your, you know, your target audience and their interests?

Brian: In the first few experiences that we decided to create, we were thinking about experiences that had mass appeal. Experiences that worked in many different markets and that were timeless. It’s sort of akin to the early days of IMAX theater films where you have volcanoes and jungle and underwater, and they were saying, okay, we have this new camera technology, let’s just take it to someplace cool and push record, and we’ll see what we get.

And I think we’re in that sort of stage with this format where it is, you know, sort of in its infancy where how do we have an experience that is relatable to a lot of different age groups and different cultures, etc.? And then I look to sort of, okay, we’ve sort of done that and we have our sort of baseline experiences.

What I’m curious and interested in, is how do we take sort of existing IP that already maybe has a following, already has cultural significance, and create that world, you know, around the IP. So, I think of maybe the Stranger Things experience that was touring where they created an entire world out of a show or can I step into, you know, Picasso’s studio?

How do I sort of create those experiences, because I think they have a lot of emotion attached to them where people are experiencing this creative on one format that they’re really familiar with, and now they get to experience that in a format that they may have never seen before. But it’s this, it’s that sort of throughline of creative.

Abby: There’s a number of different companies, sort of like Illuminarium that are looking at monetizing this new immersive experience. And they’re looking at the square footage of the spaces, what’s ideal from that perspective and IP, is it worth the hundreds of thousands of dollars? You know, there’s a lot of unknowns, but a lot of potential on the flip side.

So, what do you think, Bryan, about the venue based immersion versus the traveling shows question, from a business perspective?

Brian: There’s pros and cons to each, right. So, I think the benefit of a traveling show is I can traverse many places in a short amount of time. I can set things up very quickly, and that could grow as a business, right? Cirque du Soleil has been doing it for years. You can have these very even technologically advanced and elaborate shows when you’re traveling.

The benefit of having a permanent location is you establish this brand presence, right? You have this facility, this place where people know if I go back to Illuminarium, I wonder what’s new, what’s playing next? Maybe that’s an event. Maybe that’s artists and DJs who are coming through town. We could host them Sometimes that was morning yoga sessions. Sometimes that was a new spectacle or a new addition to one of our spectacles. So you have this sort of evergreen nature to the, this sort of permanent aspect of that venue.

Brenda: I love the idea of how it is that this can by having these permanent sort of flagship places, if that’s the right word, can enable you to build community. I’m really curious about the nature of experience design writ large and how there’s so much of a journey of discovery going on right now. What excites you about what you see going on profession-wide and where you see our industry headed?

Brian: To me, what excites me are the people and companies who are trying to tackle the narrative question. We were talking about earlier how challenging it is to create narrative when you can’t control attention. How can I have someone come away from an hour long experience and felt like they just watched an Oscar winning film? The other thing that I am sort of really, really passionate about is the use of real-time and artificial intelligence systems to make things personalized, to make things evergreen, to allow this content to sort of change.

So, if I can have a single show that every time I come back, I not only leave an imprint of myself, but it’s a different show when I come back. And that to me is very, very interesting because it creates that sense of community, like you said, but it also has this sort of cultural center appeal to it, where I know that if I come back, I can, I can show someone, hey, that’s where I left last time this is, you know, whatever that is.

It’s a color palette. It’s a song. It’s a, you know, a character. That is interesting. How, how do we use these systems that are just now really coming to the mainstream culture when people talk about, you know, ChatGPT and DALL-E, those are interesting tools that we have as experience designers to now use within our creative.

Brenda: So, Brian, thinking about the visitor experience, what are the key differences between an object-rich venue designed for content compared with a space that has a more temporary digitally immersive experience inside of it? Do you think that not having physical exhibits or things to touch isn’t ideal, or is, you know, an equivalent kind of experience? How do you see objects and the lack of objects play into the nature of the connection that people are having with the story?

Brian: I think an experience that is object heavy or there is things to touch and interact with is always going to be my preference. I think that there is this grounded nature if I can touch things and and they have texture and they’re a part of the story versus something that’s purely digital, to me, I will always favor the first one. And I think if you’re going to have an experience that is leaning toward the digital side, you have to make up for it in story, in spectacle. But there is this, there’s the rooted connection of, you know, me being able to touch something.

I think back to one of the first sort of room scale VR experiences I ever did, which was put on by The Void. It was the sort of Ghostbusters experience where the digital world matched the physical world, but you couldn’t see that physical world. So, if there was a phone in the VR headset, there was a real phone that you could pick up. And I just remember being blown away by that because now you have this tool that you can texture and color your set however you want, but the object, the physical thing, the wind blowing, the, the smells, they’re all there, they’re all physical, which trick your brain into thinking whatever you saw on the screen was real. And that’s so important.

Abby: We have some listeners who want to know the brass tacks, like how much approximately does it cost to, like, create a space like Illuminarium, you know, and then to update it at all, because a lot of museums are, you know, they rely on donors and the government to keep open. And I know this is privately funded so quantify it for our listeners in some way.

Brian: So, I think there’s a spectrum to these things. And, you know, I think the I mean, let’s talk about the content creation. You know, you look at a blockbuster film cost $100 million or $200 million. We’re doing content for, you know, maybe 10% of that. And I think there’s still a spectrum between that where, you know, you don’t have to have these $10, $20, $30, $40 million budgets to create great content.

It is very expensive and the reason it’s very expensive is because of the sheer amount of real estate you have on your screen, right? So, that increases things like rendering costs, it increases capture costs, post-production, VFX work. Now, in terms of infrastructure, that’s totally scalable, right? You can do something on the Van Gogh side for $2, $3, $4 or $5 million and be able to travel that.

And sort of on the permanent scale side, you know, that’s, you know, in the realms of $10, $20, $30 million. It’s that classic, you know, audiophile question of well how much money do you have, how much do you want to spend? And then there’s a baseline. No matter how much technology you have and what projectors you have or whatnot, it’s always going to boil down to the content. It’s always going to boil down to how good is your story, how good is your narrative, and what do people feel when they come away.

Abby: Brian, thanks so much for joining us today and sharing your thoughts on successful, technologically advanced experiences and reminding us how important a human is at the center of those.

Brenda: And the story, Abby, right? Brian, thank you so much. This was amazing. We really appreciate your time.

Brian: Thank you very much to you both. It was fantastic speaking with you. And I really appreciate your time.

Abby: If you like what you heard today, subscribe for more episodes of Matters of Experience wherever you listen to podcasts and make sure to leave a rating and a review and share with a friend. We’ll see you next time.

Brenda: Bye bye, everyone.

[Music]

Producer: Matters of Experience is produced by Lorem Ipsum Corp. and recorded at Hangar Studios. Tune in next time for more fun discussions about experience design.

Transcript

[Music]

Abby: Welcome to Matters of Experience, a podcast that explores the creativity, innovation and psychology driving designed experiences and encounters. If you’re new, a big hello and to our regular listeners, thank you for tuning in and supporting our conversation. My name is Abigail Honor.

Brenda: Hello, I’m Brenda Cowan.

Abby: Today, we’re talking with my good friend, Cybelle Jones. Cybelle is CEO responsible for strategic leadership that fosters excellence in every aspect of SEGD. Before this, she was Principal and Executive Director of Gallagher & Associates. Cybelle studied architecture at the University of Cincinnati and helped establish the Masters of Exhibition Design program at the Corcoran College of Art and Design in Washington, D.C.

Cybelle’s received so many awards and honors that we really don’t have time to list them all here. Cybelle, so sorry, but we just wanted to mention the American Institute of Architects Award of Excellence and that she has been a guest critic and speaker for organizations everywhere, including the V&A, American Alliance of Museums, Building Museums Symposium, International Council of Museums and the Fashion Institute of Technology. Oh my gosh. So, Cybelle, a huge welcome to the show.

Brenda: So, Cybelle, before you joined the Society for Experiential Graphic Design, you spearheaded a lot of the work that was coming out of Gallagher & Associates. Of all the projects, can you name a couple of your favorites and why do they stand out, looking back on them?

Cybelle: That’s an unfair question because I love all of my children. I can’t have a favorite. Being in the field of experience design for as long as I was was just phenomenal. I got to work with former presidents and Olympic athletes and Hollywood stars and civil rights activists, and even mobsters and spies. So, it’s hard to pick a favorite. I’m going to pick a couple that were transformative I think for me personally.

The first one was the first iteration of the International Spy Museum, which opened in Washington, D.C. and at the time that we were working on it, there was not a model of a museum that would be self-sustaining. Most museums at the time relied on philanthropy and government funding to keep their doors open and pay their staff. And we had a client and he said, why can’t we create a museum that is self-sustaining and is fun?

And so, we came up with this concept of building a spy museum in Washington, D.C., and I will tell you the honest truth, people were not excited about that. The museum industry did not want to even call a museum a museum for-profit because it seemed like that was the antithesis of what a museum as an institution should be. And the reputation was building as we were designing this project, that it would fail, that people would not go to it because in the city of Washington, D.C., where every almost every museum is free, why would you pay to go to a museum?

But from my role as the lead designer, I had a client who was not really a museum person, and he really pushed our team to say, if you could just think out of the box and reimagine a model of a museum that people wanted to go to, that were, that was really memorable, it was an experience, what would that look like? And the topic of spying hadn’t been done, like no one had done a museum on spying. So, it was so much fun. It might have been one of the projects where I had the most creative freedom to just think outside of the box.

That museum definitely stood out and there were nerve-wracking moments. We had a Washington Post article that came out before we opened that just was horrible.

Abby: Tell me a little bit about that part, being in the middle of the process and having everybody doubt your success and it sounds like actively work against the success of the Spy Museum. You must have had some self-doubts, knowing you were doing something fun, there must have been something in there, you know. How did the team, how did you deal with those, with those boundaries everyone was putting up for you?

Cybelle: The museum was going to open, there was, the money was invested, the building was leased. Anything great where you’re the underdog and you’re just driven to do the best possible job that you can do. And it was not until probably a month after the opening. I mean, people were like waiting in line even when we were under construction. I mean, I think the sex appeal of the International Spy Museum was very attractive to people. It was so different from anything else they had heard about. And I was doing the punch list, you know, after the project was open and I had a notepad, and some mom came up to me – and we actually, we did audience research, and the target audience for this museum was not families with kids, because we didn’t really think that they would spend the money, we thought it was more like the professional, like 30, 40-year-old professional that would be in Washington, D.C. for work. But there was a mom, and she had her seven-year-old daughter, and the little girl goes this is the best museum ever.

And her mom said, we’ve just spent four days at all the Smithsonians and, and my daughter just loves this. It’s so fun, but she’s learning and – those moments of pride where all of that doubt and anxiety and, you know, we were making a new model. It wasn’t perfect. There were a lot of things that didn’t work perfectly. But I think I’m proud to say people started waking up and saying, hey, maybe this whole thing of a museum actually being an experience, bring some of that energy to the three-dimensional world.

Brenda: Well, the Spy Museum, it’s a tremendous example, and I think a great, one of the great early examples of how to have multi-layer user experience occurring. You can basically visit the exhibition on your own terms, I guess is maybe the best way to put it. And so, it’s really well done. I’m glad that you pointed this out as a favorite, a favorite child of yours.

Cybelle: Yeah. Another project later in my career was similar in the sense that no one was really paying attention to this project. It was the Mississippi Arts + Entertainment Museum in Meridian, Mississippi, which you’re going to say, where is that? Look it up. It’s close to the border of Alabama. And even when I got this project, I wondered how it was going to go. Would these people actually ever raise the money to build a new, world-class museum in this little town of Meridian? And the architect and I started off not on the best foot. We’re very different backgrounds and political beliefs and, but we both believed that providing Mississippi with a world class institution that would celebrate those artists that were homegrown, like Oprah Winfrey and Leontyne Price, who was the first African-American opera singer to perform at the Met.

So, there are all these amazing individuals that came out of Mississippi who didn’t – they weren’t exposed to the arts growing up, and you kind of had to say to yourself, what is it? Is it something in the water here that, you know, you can grow up never going to an opera or a museum or not even being able to see Hollywood films, but then you have a James Earl Jones. So, it became a real passion of mine because I feel like museums oftentimes are only for the elite, and they should be for everyone.

And so, this was a bit of an experiment of how do you make art accessible to people that might not understand what art is, and particularly abstract art. And so, we, we took a really unique approach, but we also, building on the theatrics and immersion that I had been developing as a designer, we just wanted to take people to a place where they could kind of imagine seeing the world through the experiences of these artists before they were famous and what defined them.

I think one of the most memorable takeaways I had was when a high school group visited, and that high school group was from a very rural part of Mississippi, and they had never been to a museum before. They had never eaten out at a restaurant, and they said that they saw people in that museum that looked like them and that they could imagine themselves being. And it was transformative.

Brenda: I know the project in Mississippi. And one of the things that I think is really exciting is how much you and the team engaged the audience in determining how the exhibition could work best and welcome them best, and also really foster that sense of belonging that you were discussing.

Abby: Well, just building on that, actually, it’s really interesting in the two stories, the Spy Museum, and then down in Mississippi, you are acting as a mere filter in a way. You are deciding, it sounds Cybelle, as you are being immersed in these stories, for want of a better word, and you’re giving yourself time to get to the heart of the authenticity before you’re starting to do an interpretive plan, and this is what’s going to look like.

Brenda: I think, too, you operate as an ally, which is a necessary role of everybody who’s in our industry.

Cybelle: That’s interesting, Brenda. I hadn’t really thought about this, but when I was growing up, I moved 16 times by the time I was 13. You won’t believe it, but I was an incredibly shy child and I think that taught me to be a very good observer and to kind of read the room, read the culture, and be adaptable and empathetic. I don’t know why I’m having this aha moment on this podcast, but …

Abby: Well, we’re glad you’re having it with us, with friends.

Brenda: Yes.

Abby: This is a comfortable environment.

Cybelle: With friends, with these two amazing women. I think that’s how I treated, have always tried to treat my clients and my design team is that, that synergy, that collaboration – like for me, if I’m breathing, I’m collaborating. It’s like you’re going on a trip, and you don’t know where you’re going, you don’t know where you’re staying that night, you don’t know what you’re going to eat, but you’re together, and you’re on a mission. And that’s where the magic happens.

Brenda: In a way, this is setting up a nice flow into the next question, which is – Abby, and I are really curious to hear about the idea of legacy, and as you were developing these projects in your years at Gallagher & Associates, how aware were you of the legacy that you were leaving behind?

Cybelle: I never thought about a legacy. I think I thought about a couple of things. One, I always wanted to make – I have three, three daughters – I always wanted to be a role model for my daughters in a sense of that you could do what you loved, and you could be good at it, but that meant you were going to have to work really hard and having had a pretty chaotic life and at times we had to be pretty scrappy, when I look at a project and the fees that they’re paying us and what that cost to build a museum, you really have to honor that this is a tremendous responsibility.

Museums might renovate once in someone, some curator’s, some director’s career. They’re going to put everything into that all their hours. They already have a job. Now they have to have the second job of working with us. That’s not really the job they’re used to doing and then, say if you work at the Smithsonian on a project that sees like 9, 10 million visitors a year.

So, to me, I don’t know that I ever thought about me personally. I don’t think I ever thought anybody would know my name or that I did anything because nobody knows who an exhibit designer is or even what they do. Hopefully that’s changing now, but I think what I was about was giving people an experience that’s going to spark something. The Maya Angelou quote, like, people will forget what you say and what you did, but they’ll never forget how you made them feel. And I felt that way about all my clients. You know, I had to give them the best.

And then also for my design team because you guys know, you work really hard as a designer. I mean, you put so many hours in and you live and breathe these. Like, even if you’re not working, you’re thinking about it in the shower or when you get up or over the weekend, and I needed to make it worth it to them. So, being genuine, a lot of laughter. I know you guys both do that. Like, just be sincere, you know, no B.S. Just try to do your best.

Abby: So when you look at sort of the business and the way that it evolved when you were designing, what were some of those major shifts you saw?

Cybelle: I started my career at George Sexton Associates, and we – I don’t know if you know George, he’s still designing – but we would do art exhibitions, and we were hand drawing, and we were building models. And my youngest daughter just graduated in design school from the University of Oregon. The things that she has to know now, the technical skills she has to have to be able to create photorealistic renderings, but not just the technical side. She has to have an understanding of accessibility, sensory education level, language. It’s a lot. You have to be a jack of all trades. So, I think from the designer side, that’s evolved a lot.

On the business side, that’s a good thing. We have to change. Things have to change. The way we tell stories, who we bring to the table, who we include in the process of designing, and what is the return on the experience. What is the return on the commitment, time, money on behalf of whoever that audience is.

Brenda: Let’s turn our focus to your latest challenge as CEO of SEGD. In some ways, this must be very different from your previous job. Is your work leading SEGD a really huge shift for you, and you know what’s similar and what’s different?

Cybelle: I think what’s the same is that it’s all about the people. It’s finding the best talent. It’s finding the best minds. You know, I have a very small team. I went from 150 people at Gallagher, and I have four people at SEGD, but I have all of you wonderful people that I collaborate with, right? The members, the speakers, the people that work on the education side. So, I think that that connectivity of bringing great minds together, that’s the same to me.

Abby: You are at the heart of this community. I mean, your ideas, from working with you, are innovative. You know how to engage with us, and really, you’ve grown our community incredibly, and it’s such a diverse community. You’re open to bringing in people from all different facets.

So, what was your initial mission when you first started, Cybelle, and how do you feel it’s changed over the years?

Cybelle: I believe that experience design is the field of practice to solve the problems of the future. Why, during COVID, would I go out of my house to go to an office, to, to eat out? It’s because of the experience that I can’t have at home by myself. And we, our community at SEGD, are curators of that. And we know how to do it so well, very differently from any other area of practice, right?

We understand how to bring people in. We know how to get them excited, or to calm them down or how to make a story come to life. And I always felt like when I sit on the plane and somebody would say, what do you do? I design museums. What? I didn’t know people did that. Yes. How are museums born? People have to design museums. So, it’s been a life passion of mine to get the word out.

The members of SEGD, the Global Design Award winners, the fellows are the best in the business. They are outstanding. They stand for design excellence. They stand for doing things the right way with the right process, with the right messages. And I just want to make our organization a model.

Brenda: Thinking about all of the different talent and the cross-disciplinary experts, the students, and the seasoned professionals that comprise SEGD, I’m curious, how do you capture such a breadth of individuals? Like is there a unifying approach that you know speaks to everyone, that pulls everybody together to form this unified community?

Cybelle: You have to celebrate the differences. It’s negotiating. It’s bringing everybody to the table at the same time. And guess what? Not everybody’s going to want the same thing. And that’s okay, right? What do we agree on? We agree on design excellence. We agree that we have to build a path for that next generation.

So, it’s really how I operate. I’ve always operated with a lot of caring, a lot of loving. We don’t use that word enough, a lot of joy. Hey, the world is not great, but we can really make a difference in the work that we do, and that’s unique about our field. I think I look for that. I have great resources of all these rock stars in the field, and they’re supportive, and they give their time, and – like the two of you, you both give a lot of your time, not just to do your jobs, but to help our field of practice and to bring other people up. Right? That’s also my job is, I want all of our members to be employed and I want them to have good projects, and I want them to feel proud about the work.

Brenda: So, in my role in exhibition and experience design at FIT, I know firsthand the level of dedication of SEGD to cultivating future design and industry leaders, and the organization plays this massive role in the mentorship, the nurturance, the support of the younger generation, and also individuals who are entering into the experience design profession from other professional backgrounds. And, but they’re new in many ways. Why is this critical? Why is it critical for SEGD to be providing its vital resources to cultivating this new talent, this future of design?

Cybelle: Well, we wouldn’t survive without it. We don’t understand the world in which this next generation is coming into. And so, there’s no way that we have the ability to do the right thing on behalf of some of our projects and clients. We need that next generation voice. They see the world differently than us. First of all, I don’t think they want to spend all their life just working. They understand about this concept of work-life balance, which the design industry has been really bad about.

But the other thing is that we have so much to give to them, and we have so much to opportunity to share what we’ve learned. I’ve talked to a lot of young women that have started their own business and they need someone to kind of bounce ideas off of and sometimes ask some really tactical questions, right.

And the other thing is not just the students. I mean, we all go through career transitions. When I went through this career transition, that was very hard for me. We’re all going to face some moments in our life, and we need support to get through that.

Abby: So, the big 5-0. it’s a mighty age, the semicentennial. A lot happens over that time period. Fashions change, technology changes. You have this incredible year with I know one of your big flagship events is going to be the annual conference in Washington, D.C. in late August. It’s coming up. I encourage everybody listening to go to the SEGD website – there will be a link on our page – and come, buy a ticket. It’s unbelievable. It will be phenomenal.

The theme is look both ways. So, Cybelle, tell us what it feels like for an organization to turn 50 and the idea of look both ways.

Cybelle: We are going to take our attendees on a journey we’re going to start with the founders and where we came from. We’re going to have amazing speakers like Llisa Demetrios, who is the granddaughter of Ray and Charles Eames. She runs the Eames Institute for Infinite Curiosity. And there’s so many trajectories that we can trace back to the Eames because they were one of the first truly interdisciplinary design firms.

So, we’re going to look at our heritage. We have Lance Wyman will be talking about his work in D.C., this kind of turning point of the government getting good design. But then we’re also going to ask people to reframe the conversation of how we go about doing what we do and who’s telling the stories and how are they telling them. And so, we have speakers talking about that. We’re going to be looking at can you do high-tech, high touch experiences and still have them be sustainable and green? So, we’re going to talk about that. And then our last day, we’re going to reignite. We’re going to celebrate our upcoming fellows, and we are going to ask our community; how do we take this call to action back? Super exciting. And guess what? Brenda and Abigail will be there.

Brenda: Wow.

Abby: They don’t need any other excuse.

Brenda: Hold onto your hats, everybody. So, you made mention of some trends. And what I think of is some of the critical conversations that are being addressed in our industry today. So, sustainability, there’s the nature of technology and user experience, new trends in innovative brand activations, audience research, and so on. What are you seeing out there?

Cybelle: First of all, I’m seeing our community as influencers and we go to a project, and we’re hired by a client and the client may have blindspots. They may not necessarily think that their project has to even touch on or talk about sustainability or neurodiversity or some of the not-so-good history points.

Our members, our leaders, our design leaders, they’re challenging that, and they’re saying, if you’re going to hire us, we’re going to change the process. We’re going to do the process in a way in which is going to get the outcome that should be for this institution or this brand. That is life-altering.

Our members understand how to do the process right. You’re teaching that Brenda, right? You’re not teaching your students just to have a beautiful end product. You ask them to explain what was their thesis and how did they follow through on that, and that in some ways I see is the biggest shift is the why. You as an experienced designer, whatever your area of expertise is, is it fabrication, is it graphic, have an ability to really inform rather than being just a passive doer.

Abby: I want to put you a bit on the spot because nobody really has a definitive correct answer to this. So, I’m thinking about the role –

Cybelle: Oh, great.

Brenda: It’s all on you, Cybelle.

Abby: You like those easy questions. I’m thinking about the role of AI. So, how do you think the role of AI is going to affect our profession? That’s what I meant by a big question, like, oh my gosh, that’s the drop-the-mic question.

Cybelle: Well, I mean, you’ve already been talking to me, and you know that I’m, I mostly tend to be an optimist, so I’m going to talk about the positive of AI. When we did the first Spy Museum, we wanted to put you in the role of being a spy, and RFID was just coming out as a technology, but we couldn’t afford it, and when we did the new Spy, we utilized RFID to track what you did, and it gamifies it, right, but it also could be related to your interest.

Then, one of my last projects I worked on was the U.S. Olympic and Paralympic Museum. And that museum, we used it because if you’re in a wheelchair, we could customize the exhibits, the interactive exhibits for you because we know that you’re in a wheelchair. So, that information that we can know about a guest in any circumstance, whether that’s a museum, whether that’s environmental graphics, the intelligence to inform both the museum or the place to help take care of that person in a way, but also for them to get more curated content to their education level if their kid or their interest level is amazing.

So those are the pros, is that we’ll be able to make designed 3D environments more agile. That’s the problem with our industry. We are not agile. You build a branded environment, and the next year it’s obsolete because there’s a new technology, and that new technology the client can’t afford to update. So, I think AI will provide a lot of opportunities to create multiplicity of storytelling, learning, learning from audiences, how people move through airports, what are they seeing and what are they not seeing.

And then obvious things where we can automate. I find that a lot of our process in designing takes a lot of time. If we could automate more for prototyping and spend more time on the creativity. I don’t think it’s going to replace jobs. I think we’ll have new and different jobs. I would like to see us be more creative about problem-solving. We have big problems in the world to figure out and hopefully AI will maybe give us a leg up to be able to do that in a more expeditious way.

Abby: Well, Cybelle, we can’t thank you enough for sharing your experience, your positivity, and all these stories today, but most importantly, for inspiring us all every day to create these engaging, fun, sustainable work that can really make a difference in the world.

Brenda: Thank you, Cybelle.

Cybelle: My goodness. Can I just – I’d like to reverse this because the two of you model phenomenal qualities about sharing your knowledge. So, thank you, and maybe we’ll just have to continue the conversation at the conference, which everyone listening needs to attend.

Abby: Yes, they do.

Cybelle: Washington, D.C., August 23rd through 26 and this month, only, July of 2023, you can re-up your membership at SEGD. We’re giving a gift back to you for $50 off. So, what’s not to like about that?

Abby: That sounds like a win-win. Thank you, everyone who tuned in today. If you like what you heard, subscribe to more episodes of Matters of Experience, wherever you listen to podcasts, make sure to leave a rating, a top, top review, and share with a friend. We’ll see you next time.

[Music]

Producer: Matters of Experience is produced by Lorem Ipsum Corp. and recorded at Hangar Studios. Tune in next time for more fun discussions about experience design.

Show Notes

SEGD

International Spy Museum

Mississippi Arts + Entertainment Experience 

2023 SEGD 50th Anniversary Conference in Washington DC

Transcript

[Music]

Abby:

Welcome to Matters of Experience, a podcast that explores the creativity, innovation and psychology driving designed experiences and encounters. Welcome back, all our regular listeners. Thanks for being here with us today. And if you’re new and enjoy today’s show, please subscribe. My name is Abigail Honor.

Brenda:

Hello, I’m Brenda Cowan.

Abby:

So today we’re talking with Terry Snowball. Terry is the Museum Specialist in the Collections Management Department at the Smithsonian Institution, where he’s worked for over 26 years, a graduate of the Institute of American Indian Arts. Terry has used his experience to help guide S.I. in their pursuit of Native American historical justice. Terry, welcome to the show.

Terry:

Thank you. It’s great to be here. Virtually. And I look forward to sharing my experiences and insights in terms of what I do here at the NMAI.

Abby:

To kick off, tell us sort of about the work you do with collections.

Terry:

Normally, when you go to a museum, anywhere, a small percentage of the collections are actually on display, the full balance so that it’s going to be in a storage facility and or kept in storage onsite or offsite at the museum. Where I work here in the Cultural Resource Center in Suitland, Maryland, we’re home to over 850,000 plus objects from the entire indigenous people of the Western Hemisphere. And so there’s a lot entailed in terms of both carrying and preserving, also making upgrades in terms of their care.

Brenda:

Terry, the repatriation of objects, this is an increasing area of focus in the museum world, I would say very long overdue. And it’s very complex and sensitive work. Terry, You used to work with the repatriation of native objects. Can you share with the listeners what that would entail?

Terry:

Sure. One of the things that sort of happened, very important and or significantly in terms of the types of objects and or the importance of the objects, not only to museums and to the public, but also to the communities themselves, the tribes. Their objects and or their ritual practices were both outlawed and or taken away. And so repatriation happened along with the passing of the National Museum of the American Indian Act, to allow for tribes to come to the Smithsonian and primarily work with the National Museum of Natural History, which has Native American collections of human remains and cultural objects, and as well as the National Museum of American Indians.

And so in that there are five main categories that are basically affect the collections and or the means by which tribes can make claim for objects. The first, of course, being human remains that would have been collected and or excavated from different sites, funerary objects and then, of course, objects that were once previously considered communally owned, which are also considered objects of cultural patrimony, which means no one individual in a tribe or community can alienate that object or items from their community.

And then lastly, sacred objects, which are, of course, as the term applies, used and very important and significant ways in the practices of the traditions.

Abby:

What sort of conflict then, in your business as you’re trying to do the right thing and repatriate these objects, what are some of the trouble that it causes or the conflicting opinions or perspectives or groups that you encounter and how do you deal with it?

Terry:

Well, that’s a good question because it is very complicated in that sense. And one of the things from the outset in terms of the legislation, and I should mention that in while the NMAI Act established the Museum of the American Indian National is the American Indian with the Smithsonian, which now includes 19 museums and a zoo, it also, in that sense, you know, sort of presented the challenge in terms of how you interpret the law, I guess you could say.

So there are basically two forms of interpretation, I guess one could refer to, and that’s, there is a term or a standard which is called preponderance of evidence. And so a preponderance of evidence is a higher standard, say, as opposed to what the NMAI is, is which is a reasonable basis. So the higher the standard, I think in that sense, it’s harder to find agreement in terms of the type of information or record that is that is used or utilized, you know, sort of oral accounts in terms of its histories that maybe not admissible or permissive or even sort of given the same equity and say, an ethnographer or an archeologist or an anthropologist who’s, who’s esteemed or has expertise in that sense or, you know, from the standpoint of institutional standard.

Brenda:

I’m going to broaden their focus for a second and share with you that I just got back the other day from a special seminar that was focusing on the work of collections in state and local history museums. And I was in a boardroom with a dozen historians who were really deeply engaged in a really concerning conversation over the nature of collecting in various historical institutions and really this whole idea that there’s a problem with an almost hoarding-like mentality on behalf of historical collections institutions and the efforts to the excess and the efforts to repatriate, where appropriate, are deeply flawed or challenged.

And I’m really curious in terms of the way in which you’re working with collections now kind of across the board at NMAI. What are some of the current efforts that you’re engaged with? You know, are you having to do particularly difficult work or decision-making because of the, you know, incredible size of your collection? Or what are you finding in your daily work?

Terry:

Well, I think the challenge to most anything in that sense is sort of the decline of, you know, sort of the cultural stamina, you know, in terms of communities and groups where in that sense, that stamina is based on just how rich their culture is, what is still retained. Languages are constantly sort of in the threat of completely disappearing.

So I think in that sense, the challenge with most collections is to work with the vestiges of those and trying to enrich or replenish that information that’s critical to an object. So that is a challenge from the standpoint of having so much cultural material, but also sort of not really being capable of having that type of expertise available to you.

So we have to work with communities from that standpoint to help us enrich these collections to sort of valorize the meaning or context of these objects.

Brenda:

So you’re really collecting towards the mission of the institution, and it sounds like you’re really collecting towards telling the narrative, telling the story.

Terry:

Yes, very much so, because that’s part of our mission is to work with community. And one of the things that I think is really important for the NMAI is that, you know, we’re kind of a living museum we consider us a cultural institution. And so our mission is to work with communities. So in that sense, the things that we want to collect or to actively look for is not something from the past, because there’s there’s a lot of that here.

And like I said just before, you know, it’s important to enrich that. But the other part of it is that it’s very important to collect things correctly and appropriately in the sense of that, we’re collecting contemporary things by any number of artists that are about working traditionally and or in modern art.

Abby:

Terry, here you are, collecting wonderfully for the future from what’s currently contemporary and you feel needs to be preserved. What you collect now will quickly become the past. If every collection is only at any one moment displaying 2 to 5%. Isn’t it safe to say that a lot of what you’re collecting is sets, collecting dust? And it’s not important if nobody ever sees it.

And if you continue to keep collecting, even if it’s on mission and it goes in a warehouse and nobody’s seeing it, then there’s something, something vain about us all collecting things that we think are important and then putting them away and not showing them. So is there any importance and constantly reviewing the collection you’ve obtained and maybe sifting through and removing from that huge collection some things that have proved to not be of any interest to our communities over the last decade or century or half-century, however long a museum’s there?

Because just sitting there, it’s just like fine for everybody to say we paid a ton of money. It’s really important. Important for what? Sit in a corner, in a box.

Terry:

I think the question is, is not always the easiest one to answer in terms of sort of qualitatively or even quantitatively assess, you know, the spectrum of this material culture to say what, you know, what can be best done with this kind of material and or even individuals per se to sort of see how we can interpret them in the future.

And I should say that while we’re also open to and or giving access to native peoples, the collection is also being accessed by researchers who in a particular way or are similarly more at large in terms of developing and or refining information about larger or collections at large that are similar in those ways. And so there are things that kind of come in, and or there are trajectories that do take place in terms of saying that that’s giving resource to things.

But, you know, that’s an important thing from that standpoint, which I think one of the overtures that the Smithsonian is making and or has made is that it is interested in pursuing the route in terms of ethical return of objects and or things that have so great or significant cultural importance to people and communities. And so that similarly, going along those lines in terms of human remains.

So there’s a developing directive in terms of how that becomes a guiding policy for our institutions that are affected in terms of needing to be open to and or receive solicitations from people, individuals, or countries even to request the return of human remains and or significant cultural objects. And as of note, recently, too – our National Museum of African American has returned the Benin Bronzes and its collection.

And those are significant overtures from the standpoint of global impacts to say that we’re doing some of the right things with some of this important material.

Brenda:

I’m going to ask a question about the evocative nature of objects, and we know that objects can be very powerful in very numinous ways. They’re sources of inspiration and illumination, and people can have very transformative experiences, sometimes with evocative objects. Now, I know that you have had some transformative moments with collections objects, and Abby and I are hoping that you can maybe share a story with us.

Terry:

Sure. We’ve been since the pandemic has sort of eased off on things. We are receiving many more community of people. And so about a month or so ago, we received a delegation of people from communities, and none of it, which is in the Arctic range, is up north through the Arctic Studies program. And so they were housed at our facility in terms of working with those community members to provide access to some of the cultural materials that we had here.

Terry:

And there was a Nunavut elder that was accompanying them. And one of the things that are standard in terms of how we host and accommodate our community people is we have a ceremonial room that’s built into the facility that gets used by artists in terms of purification or cleansing prior to and after they come in and out of the collections, as well as forms of ceremonial treatment that might take place in that process.

And so this particular elder, well, we were going to escort down to a ceremonial room. And so we asked the question of what type of ceremony was that? Was it going to be entailed? People said that she was wanting to light this oil lamp, which oil lamps for the Nunavut has been used for a millennia where that’s basically lit and heated the homes in the Arctic, as you can imagine, is very cold. So in that moment, it kind of just took a risk in saying that to the objects that were held in a particular workroom could have benefited by having that ceremony or that imparting of the divine to take place right in the room with these objects. And so we all changed course.

And the lady proceeded to light the lamp, there were a couple of moments where we were holding our breath, hoping the sensors wouldn’t go off because of the smoke. But it was very minimal. But I think to transformative thing was in that sense is that we turned off all the lights that we could and in that moment was sort of saying words here, making, maybe making prayer, invoking the divine.

And these objects were sitting there in the dark with this lamp. And I think days of old, they could have been in those moments in those homes with these people feeling that light again. And I thought that was a very powerful thing for this to happen for her. And or for these objects.

Brenda:

That is stunning. And I love the visual of this mundane storeroom essentially being lit by something and being involved in such an ancient moment. And it just it just seems so completely appropriate in so many ways.

Abby:

Can you talk about what part of your job satisfies you and how you see yourself in your work?

Terry:

Well, when I first started as an intern up in New York at the research branch of the National Museum of American Indian, that was an early moment, early time for repatriation. And I should say that upon reflection, I think one of the important things that repatriation legislation and or those mandates did in terms of necessitating that museums and institutions and agencies work with tribes is that there were probably rare or fewer moments in the sense where museums would conduct themselves in that way to sort of customarily work with native peoples.

And so in that sense, that form of engagement that took place because in earlier times too, tribes would literally come to museums. They actually came to the NMAI and in those instances would ask for things that were on display and, you know, of course, be declined and turned away or discouraged from coming back. And so, you know, in that sense, it’s important for me from that standpoint to sort of, you know, help with the civil exchange that takes place from that standpoint.

Abby:

We were fortunate enough to create an exhibition. It was supposed to be a temporary exhibition, but was such a hit. It’s still touring up in the northern Arctic with the Nenets up there. And we were very apprehensive because we were making this exhibition for the local community, for the Nenets, and we felt very much ducks out of water.

So we did exactly what you what you’re discussing. We made it with them. So we went right in into the community to talk to them about everything, all walks of life. And they were with us every step of the way because we realized that the subtle nuances, even between the different tribes up there, were sometimes barely perceptible for our eyes.

It was like, Really, this is different. But to them it’s like, you know, left and right. So we needed them to guide us and help us with all of the content we were making. And at the end of it, one of the most amazing moments in my life so far is when it opened and we stood there apprehensively, showing them what we’d created.

And at the end of taking them around, they came over and said to us, Thank you so much for representing our life with integrity. And also we sort of given it a different perspective so that they could then reflect on who they were. It was an incredible moment and one of the highlights of my career to create that and then have it be so successful that they wanted to tour it so everybody could see it up there in the Arctic and the different groups could enjoy it as well. Was was kind of phenomenal.

Terry:

You know, one of the things that’s important from that standpoint is trust, and that’s the ultimate benefit in terms of working collaboratively with something and someone is that you actually learn something more about a situation or about a thing in terms of its true context and, you know, I mean, I guess that’s the distrust that we had spoken of earlier in terms of repatriation is that there was a lot of distrust because there’s just a history and or a legacy that is brought from the standpoint of how many times Native people have stood before non-native and had promises made to them. And of course, all those things sort of as expected or anticipated, never made sort of came to fruition for native peoples.

Brenda:

You know, I’m listening, and I’m thinking about a colleague of mine who was a curator in Western Australia for many years for a national museum there, and he, you know, was in his twenties and just starting out in the museum world. And his job was to quote, collect indigenous objects. And over many, many years, he collected upwards of 4000 stone tools.

Brenda:

Now, 40-plus years later, he has been fighting and fighting and fighting to try to repatriate. And he’s no longer with the institution and he has these profound feelings of guilt and shame and conflict, inner conflict that he’s been struggling with. And during COVID, he actually got special permission to be able to go visit the collections storeroom where all of these 4000 stone tools are.

Brenda:

And he went there to have a personal kind of a personal ceremony, a ritual period of time where he took out these thousands of stone tools and apologized and asked their forgiveness.

Terry:

Well, you know, I mean, maybe in the course of those collectings, he thought he was doing a good thing. And in some respects, it could have been, but in other respects, it could equally sort of contradicted and or defied, you know, so maybe the order or the ways in which Aboriginal people would have preferred to have things left in state.

And, you know, everything has some form of energy. And sure, I think, you know, I think that that’s sort of maybe a way to sort of acknowledge and or maybe make peace with that and making those apologies. One of the things my mother taught me was, was a prayer that I use on occasion to ask for forgiveness and touching and taking care of these things.

Brenda:

Terry, What would you want visitors at NMAI today to walk away with as a result of their encounters with the collections?

Terry:

One of the things that I think a lot of people believe or even aren’t aware of, that Native people are still alive or still thriving. So much of the culture that is taught in mainstream is such that it either also has minimized or reduced us to sort of caricature status or the state. So there are things in which we do look at the museum and or wish to share with peoples about who we are and our past.

Terry:

I think what a lot of people assume a national museum, American Indian is, is is about beads and feathers. And we’re not. We’re so much more. And so I think Hollywood is probably has given a greatest of service to our identities because of what they did and how we were portrayed. They wanted our romanticism, but they didn’t want us.

So, you know, there were these embellishments to these narratives that sort of remain as sort of not a stigma, but just sort of an alter the sort of alter ego or alter identity to who we really are.

Abby:

I’m so happy you mentioned Hollywood, Terry, because that’s what was bringing to mind. Which books should our listeners read to get a more realistic account? And also, is there any film where you feel a tribe or tribes are depicted correctly?

Terry:

Well, that’s tricky, I think, from that standpoint. But there was a gentleman who was First Nations from Canada who sort of documented his travels and journey to Hollywood to find the Indian, and made these various sort of journeys to places and things where, where those interpretations of native people and or and or even people assuming those identities.

The documentary is called Reel Injuns and Real is spelled R-E-E-L. And Injuns, of course, is somewhat of a derogatory term to, say, Injuns: I-N-J-U-N. Another book is by Dee Brown, which is a book called Bury My Heart at Wounded Knee. And so documents the account of the systematic destruction of American Indians.

But also, there is another gentleman. His name is Vine Deloria Jr, and he was, I think, from Standing Rock Sioux Tribe. And one of the books that he was known for was this book called Custer Died for Your Sins: An Indian Manifesto. And that gave him national attention to Native American issues in the same year as the Alcatraz takeover during the Red Power Movement in the 70s 60s, with the American Indian Movement.

Abby:

Thank you so much, Terry, for sharing your experience and perspective with us today. It’s been enlightening chatting with you, and I feel like we can all sleep a little sounder knowing you’re one of the very valued custodians of our shared past, present, and future.

Terry:

So it’s been a pleasure, but I think it’s been too short a time because there’s so many stories and so many places we can go.

Abby:

And thanks to everyone who tuned in today. If you like what you heard, please subscribe for more entertaining episodes of Matters of Experience. Make sure to leave a rating and a review and share with a friend. See you next time. 

Brenda:

Bye bye.

Producer:

Matters of Experience is produced by Lorem Ipsum Corp. and recorded at Hangar Studios. Tune in next time for more fun discussions about experience design.

Show Notes

The National Museum of the American Indian Cultural Resources Center

Yamalo — Nenets Autonomous Region

Reel Injun

Bury My Heart at Wounded Knee

Custer Died for Your Sins: An Indian Manifesto

[Music]

Abby: Welcome to Matters of Experience, a podcast that explores the creativity, psychology and innovation driving designed experiences. A big, hearty welcome to everyone listening. My name is Abigail Honor.

Brenda: Hello, everyone. This is Brenda Cowan.

Abby: Today, we’re talking with Ed Rodley, an award winning experience designer who’s worked for over 25 years creating visitor focused projects for science, natural history and art museums, just to name a few. He’s co-founder and principal at The Experien—- ce Alchemists, an experience design firm serving cultural organizations both large and small. Prior to that, Ed was Associate Director of Integrated Media at the Peabody Essex Museum. He is a passionate believer in what Ed refers to as the informal learning that is at the heart of the visitor experience, which I’m really keen to hear more about today. Ed, welcome to the show.

Ed: Thank you so much for having me, Abby and Brenda.

Brenda: Ed, you began museums as an 11 year old volunteer, not very long ago. And over the years, you’ve done every front-of-house position possible. What first attracted you to museums and what were some of those first really critical jobs?

Ed: Oh, boy. I think probably the first thing that attracted me to museums was that museums offered to take me in, right, so when I when I started at the impossibly young age that you mentioned, there was a program being run by the Museum of Science in Boston where I grew up, where they would invite middle school students to come in and lead tours. Basically, we would walk kindergartners around the museum and read the labels to them. So, the reason that I got interested was not because I had a burning interest at age 11 in museums, but because the museum asked like, please come in. And once in, then obviously the hook was set, as it were. And I proceeded through, as you said, a lot of front-of-house jobs.I was a guard, I was a ticket taker. I worked in, you know, putting sharks’ teeth in bags in the store.

I didn’t even really think about museums as a career option until after college, even though by that time I’d been working in museums for over a decade. It’s as simple as just meeting the right person, which in my case was having lunch with the woman who was in charge of traveling exhibitions at the museum, who was complaining about how overworked and understaffed she was. And it was only really at that point at age, you know, whatever, 24, 25, that the light bulb went on in my head like, oh, wait a minute, people make the things that the museum is full of that people come to see. And that could be a job you could do, instead of being a ticket taker, like, huh, interesting.

Abby: And in terms of sort of the importance of a mentor, can you talk to us about how she mentored you?

Ed: I did not realize the great good fortune I had when I first got my first job in exhibits. The woman who hired me was of that generation of women who’d come up in museums when if you wanted to get ahead, you were basically either going to work in personnel or you were going to be like the executive secretary to the director. So, the idea that you could become a manager in your own right and have some power and authority was something that she had managed to achieve, I think pretty much through sheer dint of personality.

And she was determined that the next generation was not going to go through what she went through. So from the very, from the very get go, she really inculcated in me part of my responsibility as professional was to actually leave the profession better than I found it, which at the time I thought was just what bosses did. It seemed like a very logical boss thing, right? Oh, you’re going to set parameters for me and give me something inspirational to aspire to. And it was only after I had stopped working for her and had many other bosses that I was like, oh, oh, she was a mentor, and all these other ones are really just bosses.

Brenda: Man, I’ve got to say, I had a very similar story to yours where my very first boss, who is at Brooklyn Children’s Museum, all honest, he changed my life. And I knew at the ripe old age of 22 that museums were going to be the rest of my life. So, how is it that you went from there to where it is that you are today?

Ed: The usual, very non-linear path, I guess you could say. I gradually moved over the next many years into doing content development and exhibit development. And one of the shows that I worked on in the mid-nineties was a tiny little exhibit just trying to explain what the World Wide Web was, because I thought this is an interesting thing and it was a brand new technology at the time.

So, then I became the quote unquote computer guy, and that led me into thinking about digital engagement and that interest in the digital and particularly in the intersection of the digital and the physical is a thing that has just stayed with me ever since. And so that was, that was part of the motivation for moving into art museums, because strangely enough, they have much deeper experience thinking digitally than a lot of other museums because they were among the first crop in the sixties to really embrace what they called data processing back in the day.

That led up to the pandemic, and lots of people, including myself, losing their jobs and deciding that, well, you know, in the middle of a pandemic, this is a great time to start an experience design firm and try to do this kind of work for not just museums, but other kinds of clients as well.

Abby: Tell us about some of your adventures, like at Skywalker Ranch. You know, what was that like? Sorry, I love Star Wars, I’m not going to miss this opportunity.

Ed: You’re really just going to drag me into the mud on this thing.

Abby: I know, I totally am.

Ed: 11 years old, Star Wars. Okay. So, one of the other things I did at a very young age was ditch school one fine May day in 1977 to go see a movie that was playing at the, the biggest theater in Boston at the time, which was called Star Wars. And that began a lifelong love of the, of the movies and of the people who made them. One of the highlights of my career was we actually put together a proposal to do an exhibition that used Star Wars as a way to think about and look at new technologies that might be coming in the real world.

We would often run into the problem at the Museum of Science, where we would be thinking about how do you get people to visualize something that doesn’t exist yet, right, because your vision of the future and my vision of the future are probably going to look wildly different so there’s no common frame of reference. Really, without that kind of scaffolding, it’s hard to get people to move where you want them to. So, if we wanted to talk about cryogenically cooled superconducting magnetically levitated trains, right, that doesn’t mean anything to you, probably. If I say like, land speeder, people immediately have an image of what that is.

Abby: Oh, yeah.

Ed: And so we proposed to Lucasfilm that we use Star Wars, really not for Star Wars’ sake, but just as sort of a shorthand to get us to talk about stuff in the real world. This take was different enough that George was actually interested enough to say like, you know, sure, go ahead. Go work with these guys. So I did find myself in the situation of being a lifelong Star Wars dork, like driving up to the unmarked front gate of Skywalker Ranch to go talk to people at both Lucasfilm and Industrial Light & Magic and Skywalker Sound, and actually meeting the people who had made the things that had entranced me as a teenager back in 1977. And interestingly, with all of the real-world ­scientists and engineers we talked with, there were between them almost a universal similarity in that they’d all had that kind of experience with something, usually a pop culture reference. It might not have been Star Wars per se, but like you could almost, you could rank roboticists by were they the crop of people who went into robotics because they saw 2001: A Space Odyssey or because they saw Star Wars, which was fascinating.

Abby: I was going to say it’s fun when, you know, obviously you often have art imitating nature, but in this case, nature imitating art. And a lso that awesome use of a common language, using Star Wars to tell what were probably quite complex concepts and information is really awesome, and I think when designing museums, it’s a great example of sort of thinking differently, thinking outside the box, thinking about a different way to represent information that can connect with your visitors.–

Ed: Yes.

Brenda: Well, I’d like to bring us a few light years forward to present day. I know I’m hilarious. Right? As you’ve expanded over the years, you’ve observed that the visitor experience was not really very holistic. Has it changed since COVID? How have you helped make things more holistic for visitors and their experiences through some of your recent work?

Ed: One of my strange pet peeves as somebody who spent most of his professional life working in making exhibitions has always been how much less focus gets paid to everything that happens outside of the gallery doors, in museums in particular. The idea that the visit, quote unquote, to a museum is only the part that happens when you’re in the galleries where the stuff is, is really just not the way that people experience museums, right?

The visit is everything. The visit is deciding to go. It’s getting there. It’s parking, it’s walking through the front doors. It’s trying to decide what kind of ticket to buy. All of these things make or break the visit as much, if not more, than the actual content, which is kind of a difficult pill to swallow for somebody who’s interested in making the content.

I’m sure we’ve probably all had the experience of being at a cultural organization with somebody who didn’t want to be there, right? And they are the people who usually drive that experience because the least interested person is the person who’s going to decide when the group leaves. For me, experience design was a very neat way to take that desire to think more holistically about the work the museum does, and also frame it as a way that it was something that I could be part of.

You know, in my, my earliest days working in an exhibits department, you know, well the lobby, that’s not your business, that’s visitor services or the membership desk, you know, that’s not your business, that’s membership’s business. And the hallways belong to security and the garage belongs to the garage. And, you know, for visitors, they don’t make any of that fine distinction. It’s all the museum to them. And for us to take the mental model of the org chart and try to apply that to the visit is just really not helpful.

Abby: Yes. So you started to talk to us a little bit Ed about when you became a digital guy. From your perspective now, what does digital bring to the visitor experience in institutions, good and bad?

Ed: One of the things I think is the agency equation is much more sharply slanted in the visitor’s favor just because if it’s a thing that’s happening on your phone or some kind of device that is yours, you can put it down or you can turn it off or you can stick it in your pocket or your purse. Digital gives you at least the possibility of being much more selective about when you actually are trying to push stuff toward the visitor or when you’re asking them, when you’re using the pull mechanism of like, tell us what you want, and we’ll give it to you when you want it.

The example that I use to try to explain this is one from a museum I went to in Australia called the Museum of Old and New Art. It’s this absolutely crazy private museum in Hobart, Tasmania, literally the bottom of the planet, built by this internet gambling millionaire who amassed a giant collection and built this strange museum. And his whole organizational scheme was he loved art and he hated art museums and he didn’t want to make a museum that looked like a museum.

So, there’s no labels. Zero. All of the interpretation happens via a mobile device. And if you want to learn anything about any of the art, you have to actually look for it and seek it yourself rather than having it just pushed at you. And I wound up having probably one of the most transformative art museum experiences I’ve had because I didn’t have to have anything interfere with the visit that I didn’t want to have interfere with the visit.

There was a particular moment where I was standing in front of a painting and I was looking at it and thinking like, this looks kind of like a crappy Picasso. And having the realization that, like, I don’t like this painting and I look it up, and of course it is a Picasso. And if there had been a tombstone label there that said, you know, Picasso, Pablo, Spanish, active in France, 18, blah, blah, blah to 19, blah, blah, blah, I probably would not have had the ability to have that realization that I didn’t like this piece because everybody ==y knows Picasso is part of the Western art canon.

He’s, he’s a single name artist. Like, you can’t not like him, in the same way that I could like this thing that I had a direct encounter with without any kind of mediation, right, and that was a very important moment for me, just realizing like, oh, yeah, if you put these things out there like labels where everybody can see them all the time, even if you don’t look at them, they still affect your visit.

Brenda: I’d like to talk about really some of the work that you are, I believe, the most well-known for, which is digital immersion. So, you see immersion as the beginning of an experience, not the end all, be all of an exhibition experience or an environmental designed experience. So, build spaces like Meow Wolf or large scale digital environments that integrate built environment with VR and digital technologies.

These are spaces that you see as being rich with potential for visitors to engage deeply into content. Can you give us an example of the best that you’ve experienced so far? Like, what should we all be aiming for?

Ed: Well, one thing I would say is the, the one size fits all solution doesn’t exist. In terms of what makes a successful immersive experience. If you look at and I’m going to say a lot about immersive Van Gogh, which is not to say that I’m going to rain all over immersive Van Gogh, but they are useful exemplar because everybody has heard about it if they haven’t actually seen one of them.

If you go all the way back to the 1990s and people like Janet Murray in Hamlet on the Holodeck, she points out that the word immersion originally had a very specific meaning. The word immersion meant being dunked in water, like jumping into a pool, being baptized, going for a swim, and it’s that sensation of transitioning from one environment to another environment that is radically different enough that you are completely aware of the transition.

So, if you think of the moment after you’ve jumped in the pool, you become intensely aware of that environment and you’re trying to figure out, okay, how do I survive in this environment? In digital immersive environments, that same thing is happening, right? Normally in our default world, stuff isn’t moving on the floors and on the walls and on the ceiling, so when you leave the default world to enter one of these like immersive Van Gogh experiences, your brain does sort of the same thing. You’re trying to figure out like, okay, what are the new rules that apply here? The thing about immersive Van Gogh, that’s sort of a lost opportunity for most of them, I think is eventually that new environment becomes your default environment, right?-=

The immersion basically gives you a very short time span when people are really paying attention and therefore it becomes an opportunity for you to be able to leverage them to do anything else you want. But once that immersion effect wears off, oftentimes that will be the end. If there’s nothing else there, that’s why people get up, they go, okay, big pictures on the walls and ceiling, I get it. And they leave.

Brenda: Yeah, it’s all about the potential, and like you said, the missed opportunity.

Ed: Yeah. The Mexican director, Alejandro Iñárritu, created a VR experience a few years ago called CARNE y ARENA, which was ostensibly a VR experience designed to help people understand what it’s like to be a migrant trying to cross the southern border into the US. But it is actually something that manages to hit almost all of the necessary elements I think you need to have in order to particularly leverage the immersion aspect of what makes an engaging digital experience.

You go into a fairly industrial looking space where you have to take off your shoes and you get a little bit of onboarding about what’s going to happen to you. After you get your training, you get dumped into the center of the experience, which is basically a giant sandbox, literally, like it’s a large empty space with sand on the floor.

They have heat lamps going, so you have the goggles on at this point and you’re seeing a VR film of nighttime in the U.S. South somewhere, and there’s a group of migrants walking along in the dark and they have an encounter with the Border Patrol. You’re getting all of the immersion, you’re getting it reinforced kinesthetically, right? Your feet are actually crunching on sand. Your skin feels warm. And the story of what is happening to these people really takes that immersion and makes this thing an intensely emotionally evocative experience.

And at the end of all of this, there is actually a third space after that that is sort of like a traditional museum gallery where there are pictures of the actors who were in the thing that you just witnessed. Many, I think if not all of them, are actual migrants themselves, and they do a really, I think, delightful job of off boarding you. Right. Because one of the things that we know from psychology is that for intensely emotional experiences, you need time to process it. So, when the, when the learning actually happens is not when you’re experiencing it, it’s when you’re reflecting on that experience, like what just happened.

So, yes, it is an immersive experience, but it is really so much more than an immersive experience. And to shorten it down to just calling it immersive is kind of a disservice to what it’s trying to do.

Abby: It’s interesting the example you just gave, Ed, when I’m thinking about back to the idea of education versus entertainment discussion, I think back to one of my favorite teachers who brought history to life in school in such a really, truly entertaining way that I’ve still managed to remember some of the things he’s taught me to this very day, which is a kind of like small feat because I’ve forgotten almost everything I learned at school.

So for me, when I visit a museum like the Tenement Museum, we were talking to Annie Polland recently, you know, I’m learning, being immersed but also being entertained, it really sort of captured my imagination. So I just wanted to sort of get your thoughts on that balance.

Ed: So, one of the things that has been helpful to me has been to think about the visitor experience as someone who creates the experiences as being in sort of a host guest relationship. The most important thing I think an institution can do is display hospitality, which is getting at sort of your idea about comfort, right? What do you need to do as a good host to be hospitable for the people who are visiting you?

You need to make them feel comfortable. You need to tell them where the bathroom is in case they need to go to the bathroom. If they’re hungry, you need to feed them. And if there are other things going on, it’s really your job for them to have as successful an experience as possible. For me personally, is getting people to think of their audience not as demographic segments but as real people.

It’s very easy to talk about demographics, but it’s also very easy to decide to give up on demographics, where it’s much harder to do that to people. You can say like, Oh, well, you know, Spanish labels are too hard. We’re just not going to do it. But if you actually have a face or even, you know, just a user persona of an actual person representing this group, it’s a lot harder for people to be inhospitable.

And for me, that is sort of the thing I come back to all the time. Hospitality. What does it mean to lay out the welcome mat for people.

Brenda: So let’s talk about your work as an exhibition planner and as an experience planner. You’re a big believer in not being too precious and in doing things such as testing or formative evaluation, prototyping, recrafting. You’ve said that it can be freeing, and I know that from a designer perspective, this can take a lot of humility and a lot of willingness to let go, and that’s pretty tough stuff sometimes.

What are some of your experiences? Do you have any examples to share?

Ed: Certainly the first time I ever sat down with an interactive that I had worked on to watch visitors try unsuccessfully to use it is the kind of humbling experience I think everybody should have the opportunity to have. There’s nothing worse than sitting there with your clipboard watching people just, you know, trying again and again and again to do the thing that they’re trying to do and failing. Being able to take that and say like, okay, that’s not their problem.

That’s my problem. Like, I designed this thing wrong and we need to go back because I don’t want anyone to have the experience ever again. Having watched it. That’s the thing that can end somebody’s visit, right? You get one of these experiences where you’re, you’re trying and you’re trying and it’s just not working. And many, many times people will reflect it back on themselves because they have such great trust in cultural organizations. Like, the thought won’t even occur to many people that like, maybe it’s just a bad design. They will think, I’m stupid, I can’t figure this out.

Abby: I think, you’re talking about instinctive design, I think you’re, you’re dead right to be honest, when we’re designing interactives, it has to be familiar. I mean, we’re all using them all the time. There’s no need to reinvent the wheel. And when we had a podcast with Sina Bahram who came on to talk about accessibility, and when you think about layering that on top as well and expectations for those visitors, has to be intuitive, has to be simple.

The design needs to be accessible for everybody. And I think it’s really interesting you mentioned ego, we also have a podcast on ego. I love that idea of interviewing for resiliency because you do, you’re right Ed, you have to be comfortable seeing your work changed by clients, changed by the team, and I think it’s definitely a tough early lesson for, for designers.

Ed: It’s not even an early lesson, I mean, there are, there’s still plenty of room for plenty of people to learn that lesson. When the Star Wars exhibition was finishing its ten year long intercontinental cruise around the planet, a couple of the people who had worked on the show, we’d all moved on by then, but somebody had said like, you know, Star Wars is wrapping up at its last venue in San Jose.

We should go see it on its last day. Three of us decided we were going to fly across the country and we went to see the exhibition on its very last day. And there was something very, very powerful about being there with something that you had brought into the world, seeing it out again on the way. And the very next day, you know, friends who were working at the museum sent me pictures on my phone of like the first load going into the dumpster. I was like, there’s 15 years of my career in the dumpster and, and, and that’s okay.

Abby: Wow. That is the best therapy, I think talking about letting go and ego or in this case, fear of the unknown. I want to turn our focus to AI, and how some of our tasks are being taken over by it. And that’s clearly unnerving for a whole lot of people, a whole lot of creative people, I’m thinking about writers, who are worried their jobs could be over. So, Ed, how do you feel about AI and do you think it’ll disturb the museum experience?

Ed: Whoa.

Abby: I know, I’m sorry.

Brenda: In five words or less. You may not use a chat to answer this question.

Ed: I’m going to take a big, long drink first. I’ve lived through enough technology trends to recognize the truth of the Gartner hype cycle. You guys familiar?

Brenda: No.

Ed: So Gartner, in their market research, realized that with technology trends, there tends to be this sort of parabolic curve that technologies follow where, at the top of that, that parabola, you know, everybody saying it’s going to change everything. And it’s the be all it’s all like, imagine, you know, VR for the last 20 years and then it gets to a point where it stops being novel and interesting and goes down the other way and sort of plummets to like, this is stupid.

It’s not living up to any of the hype. And then eventually it comes back up again to whatever place it really is meant to have in society. And with AI, clearly you’re seeing something that’s at the very top of its hype cycle. But we saw the same thing happen, I mean, I’m going to date myself now, although I already have, you know, computers and exhibits.

Are they going to ruin everything? Yes. Well, maybe not. Yeah, they’re kind of ruining everything. No, they’re just part of the, part of the tool kit that we use now and AI, I’m pretty sure is going to follow the same path. Is it going to put some people out of work? Definitely. I mean, every, every new technology has that kind of disruptive effect.

Abby: Mm hmm.

Brenda: Ed, we want to take a last opportunity to just ask you to tell us about the book that you are currently working on.

Ed: Thank you very much for the opportunity. I have been working for several years on a book on museum experience design that it currently has the working title Designing for Playful Engagement, and it is really an attempt to try to put a sort of a theoretical underpinning under the last 30 odd years of everything I’ve been doing, an opportunity to sort of walk people through what we actually know about how human beings engage with cultural experiences.

In terms of both the museum literature but also the scientific literature as a way, particularly around these new technologies, to not get stuck in the hype cycle, but really try to get into like what does neuroscience and psychology tell us about the usefulness of people being able to experience their emotions comfortably and who are, who are people out there who have done interesting things you can look at because we know museum people love case studies.

Abby: Thank you so much for joining us today, Ed, and sharing your quite candid answers to our pretty big, weighty questions and also for introducing Star Wars finally into one of our episodes. I’m really looking forward to reading your book since playful experiences and creating places to be emotional is so integral to our work, our design work at Loren Ipsum, so really looking forward to reading your book. Thank you.

Brenda: Sounds like a good one for my students as well. Godspeed, Ed. Thank you so much for joining us.

Ed: Thank you for having me. Being in the same company as people like Annie Polland and Sina, I feel like I’ve made the big times.

Abby: You’ve made it.

Brenda: You have.

Abby: And thanks to everyone who tuned in. If you like what you heard, subscribe to more episodes of Matters of Experience wherever you listen to podcasts. Make sure to leave a rating and a review and share with a friend. We’ll see you next time.

[Music]

Producer: Matters of Experience is produced by Lorem Ipsum Corp. and recorded at Hangar Studios. Tune in next time for more fun discussions about experience design.

Show Notes

The Experience Alchemists

Star Wars | Where Science Meets Imagination Exhibit

Mona

CARNE y ARENA (Virtually present, Physically invisible) | On Tour

Gartner Hype Cycle Research Methodology