“Matters of Experience” with Abigail Honor and Brenda Cowan
How Do We Decolonize Design? with Dori Tunstall
With a global career encompassing an Associate Professor of Design Anthropology at the University of Illinois at Chicago and Swinburne University in Australia, respectively, Dori made history as the first Black and Black female Dean of a Design Faculty anywhere at OCAD University in Toronto, Canada. Her accomplishments have been recognized with numerous prestigious awards, notably the 2022 Sir Misha Black Award for Distinguished Service to Design Education, the inaugural BADG of Honour for Design Education from the Black Artists and Designers Guild, and the 2023 SEGD Excellence in Design Education Award.
Dori's profound commitment to making an expansive impact beyond academia has led her to establish Dori Tunstall, Inc., a firm dedicated to decolonizing and diversifying institutional processes for companies and organizations through strategic consulting, care-shops, corporate education, and leadership coaching.
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Abby: Welcome to Matters of Experience, a podcast produced by Lorem Ipsum, an experience design company headquartered in New York City. Our podcast explores the creativity, innovation and psychology driving designed experiences and encounters. If you’re new, a hearty welcome. And to our regular listeners, thank you for tuning in and supporting our conversation. My name, if you don’t know it, is Abigail Honor.
Brenda: Hello, this is Brenda Cowan.
Abby: Today we’re speaking with Dori Tunstall, distinguish design anthropologist, celebrated author, visionary organizational design leader—can’t wait to hear about that—consultant, and coach. She is a pathbreaker of progressive approaches that challenge conventional design paradigms that exclude and harm indigenous cultures.
With a global career encompassing an Associate Professor of Design Anthropology at the University of Illinois at Chicago and Swinburne University in Australia, respectively, Dori made history as the first Black and Black female Dean of basically anywhere in the world at OCAD University in Toronto, Canada. Go Canada!
Her accomplishments have been recognized with numerous prestigious awards, which I am not about to list because we’ll be here the entire show, but most recently, the 2022 Sir Misha Black Award for Distinguished Service to Design Education. Dori, a huge welcome.
Dori: I am so excited to be in conversation with you, Abigail and Brenda.
Brenda: Oh, Dori, we’re so happy that you’re here. So, before we focus in on your incredible work with design, advocacy, and leadership, tell us what attracted you to cultural justice work in the first place?
Dori: I was born into it. I grew up in Indianapolis, Indiana. I am multi-generational African American, so, you know, like 7 to 10 generations that we can trace our family heritage in the United States and thus being culturally African American, which is a kind of hybrid mix of African, European and indigenous cultures, there’s an innate sense of attunement to cultural justice in which cultures get to be expressed, which cultures are repressed, which cultures you’re forced to assimilate to in order to survive. And it also brings, again, these opportunities for wonderful, you know, global celebration of culture and just my innate desire to understand how people think, how people move in the world has, you know, just deepened my, both my scholarship and my practice, right, around trying to understand culture and what it is and what it can mean to people.
Abby: Were your mom and dad involved in that sort of work? Tell me a little bit more about the influences that drew you into this sort of line of work.
Dori: I mean, I was born, I mean, you know, in 1972, in the 70s, so this is when you had the first introduction of like, Black History Month. So, my family was definitely involved with that.
There were always, you know, like there was always art around us. You know, I had cousins and uncles and stuff who were artists, so that was always encouraged. I talk about like how I became a designer is like, I have this book and volume number 11 is Make and Do. So, at the age of 10, I went through every single exercise in that book, which is like, you know, how to make stamps out of potatoes and build houses out of cardboard, so creative expression and an understanding of black culture was something that my family deeply, deeply advocated for and wanted to make sure that we were closely connected to.
Brenda: So, thinking about that and thinking about this incredible, you know, resume that you have today, I’m curious, was your journey, was it, like, fluid or were there a lot of unexpected turns and changes along the way that were unanticipated?
Dori: Yes. I always say that I’m like the queen of the zag. And I’ll give just like, really quick examples, so there’s a story that was told: at the age of 6, I said I was going to go to Harvard, and it was a thing that first my family’s response was like, you go, girl. Right? Like so there was something there that they actually felt that they could encourage me to do that.
So, I applied to Harvard University, but I encountered Bryn Mawr College, which is an all-women’s college, and it’s one of the Seven Sisters. And for me, the claim to fame is like, that’s where Katharine Hepburn graduated. So, I got into Harvard, but I zagged in the sense of going to Bryn Mawr College.
That was like one of my first zags, and I’ve never worked harder in my life intellectually than I did as an undergraduate at Bryn Mawr College, right, and making decisions to go from biochemistry to anthropology, like, I wouldn’t have done that. I wouldn’t have the environment to feel I could choose that pathway if I had gone to Harvard because there’s always a preconceived notion of like the pathway you’re choosing if you’ve chosen to go to Harvard, right?
Abby: So, is that what happened when you left university then? You graduated with your fancy science degree and then you zigged.
Dori: No, I didn’t get it. So, the other zag is that my junior year, I was supposed to decide whether I was going to be a biochemistry double major or go into anthropology. I took anthropology classes because physical anthropology is the first course that you take. And so, I was like, oh, I’m interested in anatomy and etc., etc. and I took a medical anthropology class because I was like, I’m a global person, and so I really want to understand how medicine works across the world. And I fell in love with the subject matter.
And so, I just kept taking more anthropology classes, and I decided that anthropology got me closer to why I wanted to do neurosurgery, which is I wanted to understand how people think. And in anthropology, you learn how people think, but you learn how people think in the way that they think. And I get to understand how people think in the way that they want you to understand how they think. Right? And so that was the other big zag, was then.
So, I ended up with a degree in anthropology. My family freaked out because they thought they were going to have to, like, carry me financially for the rest of their lives. They were like, what do you do with that? And then I went to Stanford and got my Ph.D. there. But then the other zag, right, is that I went into high tech consulting at Sapient/E-Lab, and that was on a totally different trajectory. But then when they saw my salary, they were fine.
Brenda: I’m a parent of a young person who just got an undergrad in fine arts, you know, and I’m just like, baby, you just got to do what you got to do. You got to follow your heart. And she’s now going into art therapy.
Dori: I mean, you know, the, you know, my family is very much like working class, right? And so, like those questions of like, the sacrifices, let’s say, that are made to set you on a pathway where you’re like, okay, she’s going to Harvard in ten years or whatever, right? I understand deeply the anxiety because the intent is, again, if you’re working class, you want your children to be upwardly mobile, right? And so, this idea of, okay, how many zeros is it, is also a marker for them of like, okay, we’ve done a good job. Right? We’ve set them up for independence. We’ve set them up for potentially intergenerational wealth. And we created you know like a possibility model for everyone else in the family.
Abby: Yeah, the family and the community. The community modeling that happens when somebody gets so far, like, I think it inspires other people and other people’s kids
So, moving from the early, very impressive years to your most recent accomplishment, so we’re going to talk about this extraordinary book titled Decolonizing Design: A Cultural Justice Guidebook, where you have a powerful take on the role and responsibility of designers and cultural leaders to really take action towards amending social and societal injustices through design. Tell us what decolonizing means to you and why this is your current passion.
Dori: Decolonization is about reestablishing indigenous sovereignty as the land, meaning, like, there’s practice we do, like a land acknowledgment, right? So, I’m on the land of Tongva, Chumash, Tataviam peoples here in, you know, Los Angeles. So there’s that recognition of and the rematriation of the land back to those communities
And then it’s dismantling all of these structures that have been put in place to maintain this hierarchy that has put Europeans and their descendants at the top, African Americans or African peoples at the bottom, and then everyone else trying to figure out how they fit in between. So, decolonization is that process, right, of reckoning, it’s acknowledging the harms that have been done and then making the true actions of amends to redress those harms.
Abby: Do you think we can ever right the wrongs of the past completely?
Dori: Yes. Luckily, being in, like, California, you begin to see that happen, right? Like you have 100,000 acres have been rematriated to the Shasta Indigenous Nations. And again, whatever people’s fears are about that, like, nothing happens. The Indigenous communities continue to remain generous, right, in their approach to reconciliation.
Brenda: You know, in talking about decolonization efforts, I’m curious, Dori, if you could talk to us a little bit about how it is that in your experience, organizations, institutions have been falling short over the years, and I recognize this is probably a massive, I know it’s a massive question, but I’m curious if there are any specific missteps or lack of steps that you’ve encountered.
Dori: Well, in the book, I try to talk about it in two very personal ways. The first chapter is Putting Indigenous First, and it’s really about the story of my own humility that I had to cultivate in terms of working with Indigenous communities and Indigenous faculty and the sense of recognizing that, whatever struggle, civil rights struggle that I may have, right, as African American, there’s a different struggle that in some ways holds first precedence, right, over redressing for that. And it expresses itself in, really, ways, so again, like asking to be in partnership, I do a lot of work around cultural appropriation and misappropriation, and the heart of that, the grievances around that that, why didn’t you just ask to be in community with us, to be sharing with us? Right, like we would have done it in collaboration.
And again, amends are being done. Like Ralph Lauren and the Polo brand just started their third collection with Naiomi Glasses, whose, Diné designers have, they’ve done three collections to go, this is the last one. Equal credit. Right? Give back to the community, not just the individual. Again, her name is plastered all over, everywhere. I’m assuming paid very, very well and continuous. Right? Like it just wasn’t a one off. And again, like, if you talk 20, 30 years ago, Ralph Lauren was like cultural appropriator number one. 2020, had a reckoning, changed the way their business worked, to success, right, because I’m upset because it came out yesterday and it’s like it’s almost all sold out.
Brenda: You know, you’re reminding me, just, it’s like a personal side note, but the whole idea of humility, and especially when working with, with Indigenous folks and I was working on a project with the Smithsonian, the Museum of the American Indian, and I was learning about and working with Haudenosaunee and folks from the Iroquois Confederacy. And I kept slipping up, using the right language to talk about, you know, is it the Iroquois Confederacy? Is it the Haudenosaunee, and how do I get this just right in the exhibition work that I was doing? And I kept getting corrected by one of the Haudenosaunee women who was working with us. And I just kept saying thank you because she didn’t make me feel stupid. She didn’t make me feel ashamed. And at any rate, I just remember feeling gratitude. A really warm combination of humility and gratitude.
Dori: The two things that I always mess up in my relationships with Indigenous people, but other community, cultural communities as well, is, one: is being present. There’s a lot of trauma, right, that is very close in Indigenous communities, which is very triggering because African Americans have experienced like, again, same types of trauma, different timelines, like I say, like the, if you think of the residential school, you’re talking about people’s parents and grandparents, right, in terms of like, how close the harm is. Whereas even if we’re talking about like Jim Crow and a lot of those things, it’s something that I think of in terms of like my great grandparents. And so, to even have like that generation of difference means the trauma affects you in a different way, right? So, the thing I talk about is like having to be present in their joy and in their grief and in their anger because that’s, that demonstrates I care, right, it demonstrates that I understand them as peoples and I’m present for whatever they’re feeling.
The other thing and I still fail with this one and it’s, it’s hard, it’s not hardwired, it just takes a lot more practice, is that like, I am the queen of productivity, I am the queen of the Gantt chart. And it’s how I think, like when I think of an idea, I already have, like what the strategy needs to be and you know, what are the operations. So, it’s like, the moment the idea comes, I’m like, okay, these are the next steps, which is great. It means like, this is why I get to lead a lot of stuff, right? But it also means that if people are not operating under that same sense of time and task, which many of my Indigenous colleagues and more importantly, Indigenous processes of decision making does not fit within a Gantt chart, then I end up actually causing harm to a lot of my indigenous relationships, because I’m so trapped in this idea that there’s a time frame in which this needs to happen.
And again, I appreciate what you’re saying, because I would say it took me a moment to realize that the act of calling out is an act of love. It is saying, I want to be in good relations with you. So, I’m going to tell you what’s going on.
Brenda: You know, I have a question; we’ve been hearing about making amends, right, we’ve talked about that a little bit. And I’m really curious, you know, in your work, you talk about how it is that we need to make amends far beyond DEAI. Can you tell us what you mean by that?
Dori: So, the way in which DEAI is normally framed is around hiring. And in the book, I talk about the fact that, like, the way in which hiring is generally done is that they’re looking for a super token, which is, again, an individual, you know, who has an extraordinary resume, again, from structurally marginalized identities, whose talents are so desired by institutions that they’re willing to kind of put aside any aversions they have to those identities in order to access those talents. And, you know, I’ve consulted with enough academic institutions and they’re all like, who’s the super token? Right? Like, who’s the Indigenous Ph.D. from MIT that we can recruit to come to our, you know, I don’t know, backwater institution in order to make us feel like we’re decolonizing. Again, important and necessary. But it has to be done in a context that leads to success.
So, first of all, the person is in isolation, which, you’re structurally setting them up to be manipulated by the institution and actually not bring about change, right? So, you need to hire for critical mass, bring in five people a year so that they can begin to build a pocket of culture from which they can draw the strength to challenge every institutional thing that you have in terms of how it’s not working for the identities that they embody.
And that means then you’re talking about like, you know, everything from like, yes, the hiring process, but you’re also talking about, okay, what are the ways in which courses might be assigned, the workload might be assigned? What are the ways in which recruiting is done? What counts as work? Does all this community engagement count as work. So, you’re changing all of these sort of structures that exist within the institution so that they will feel free to contribute all of who they are to the institution and connect the institution to those communities that you’re wanting to embrace. Right?
Abby: Did you realize all this, like on your journey? Have you lived all of these situations?
Dori: Yeah.
Abby: Right, that’s what it feels like.
Dori: Well, and the notion of the super token came because people kept asking me, what does it feel like to be the first Black and Black female, and I said, well, it’s bittersweet because on the one hand, there is sweetness because you’ve broken through a particular type of barrier. Right? And people are inspired by that. Like there are young people who start crying just from meeting you because you’ve opened up possibilities for them. Right?
But it’s also bitter because you think of like, who are all the people that were rejected? By the system. So that it takes you in 2016 to be the first. So, my answer to that is like well it’s complicated because I’m a super token. Again, in terms of the meritocracy game, I’m exceeding expectations. That is a barrier, right? Because then people say, oh, we would hire more X, Y and Z if they were like Dori. Well, Dori’s not even like Dori. So, the responsibility of a person who’s a super token is actually to dismantle all of those structures that put them in that position of being a super token.
Brenda: That is a really tall order.
Dori: It is. I mean, this, you know, again, why my second book is The Super Tokens: The First, and the Only is as I went on tour for the last, you know, year and a half or so, people come up to me and were sharing their stories of being a super token. And first of all, they were thanking me for the term because they had a way to explain the tensions between what they were feeling in their career of, on the one hand, exceptional performance, but on the other hand, constantly failing disrespected. Right? And/or rejected by their institution. So, the idea in some ways of the second book is really to be able to embrace their stories and to draw from them what individuals and institutions need to learn, so that those experiences of those super tokens are not so painful.
And it’s a reminder for super tokens themselves of like what their role was supposed to be, because one of the things, the hard conversations that I’m having right now, let’s say, with the Black community, is that, you know, our trajectory in terms of how we’ve been structured is for us to want to join the institution. Right? We are super excited because Kamala Harris is about ready to join this super institution, right? Like President of the United States. And that’s what you’re taught. Your purpose is to infiltrate these institutions. But that is not enough, right? And that’s the part where it’s like, it is more than DEI, because it is not enough. You actually have to be engaged with dismantling empire, dismantling oppression.
And when you’re a super token, sometimes, again, your everyday struggle to exist in the institution in ways that you’re so focused on survival in the institution that you’re not focused on liberation. So, there’s also the reminder that if you are in an institution as a super token, you’re not there just to join. You’re there to create structures of liberation by dismantling and reassembling the institutions and in a way that is more just, more fair, more equitable.
Brenda: You know, we’ve talked, and the word liberation has come up a number of times. And I’m so taken with your message about humility and being informed when working with others, with being a partner and ally. And you talk about how we can experience liberation in not being afraid, right, to say no to something that could harm you. When we’re able to manage the vulnerability and the humility required to do this, we can foster connection and joy. I’ve heard you speak about this in other forums, and you term this liberatory joy. Tell us, how can we all exercise liberatory joy in our work?
Dori: There’s a workshop that I give, and I’ve given it twice, quite successfully, which is Designing a Pathway for Liberatory Joy. And in it, I ask people to first know thyself. So, I ask people to identify their positionality vis-à-vis structures of oppression. Then, decide on something they want to say no to, but feel they can’t. Once they’ve kind of sketched out like a pathway of like what, what would it mean to say yes to that thing? Imagine what like a positive outcome would be of saying yes to that thing you want to say no to. And then what are the systems that you have to, like, engage with in order to be able to get to that yes.
All it is, is just setting up a methodology to begin to say, like, no to the things that I want and need to say no to, so that I can say yes to the things that are going to bring me closer together to myself, closer to communities that I love and find nurturance with, closer to whatever higher purpose, right, that sparks my imagination and my commitment. And to say, you know, when I say liberation is saying no to that which might harm you, it becomes really clear, as we’re hyper aware of the things that might harm us. So, all of a sudden, and then people begin to think is like, can I say no to that? Can I say no to that job? Can I say no to that housing situation? Can I say no to that policeman? Right, all of a sudden you begin to accumulate all the things that are actually oppressing you, and then you figure it out: what’s your pathway to liberation?
And you can’t do it as an individual. You feel so overwhelmed if you’re trying to achieve liberation as an individual. So, it is only by trying to connect with others to others, right, that we, we create the conditions in which everyone can say yes to that which affirms them and nurtures them. And connection to me is joy, like, why we love music is because it connects us. You can have a bunch of people all moving in sync because the rhythm gives them a point of connection to one another, right?
Brenda: Well, I say yes to you, Dori, and I say yes to this moment that the three of us have.
Abby: Yes, I say yes too, this was incredible. Thank you, Dori, so much for sharing your zigzagging pathway with us today and sort of opening my mind and hopefully the listeners minds, liberating us all en masse.
Dori: Thank you so much again. It’s such a pleasure and you are such wonderful interlocutors, so let me know anytime you want to do it again.
Brenda: Oh my gosh, well this, this does beg for a sequel, I must say, because I feel we’ve only just scratched the surface. So—
Abby: So maybe, maybe after your next book tour.
Dori: Yes.
Abby: We’ll see you at the end of that. Thanks to everyone who tuned in today. If you like what you heard, please subscribe for more episodes of Matters of Experience where you listen to podcasts. Make sure to leave a rating and a review and share with a friend. We’ll see you next time.
Brenda: Thank you so much everyone!
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Producer: Matters of Experience is produced by Lorem Ipsum Corp and recorded at Hangar Studios. Tune in next time for more fun discussions about experience design.
With a global career encompassing an Associate Professor of Design Anthropology at the University of Illinois at Chicago and Swinburne University in Australia, respectively, Dori made history as the first Black and Black female Dean of a Design Faculty anywhere at OCAD University in Toronto, Canada. Her accomplishments have been recognized with numerous prestigious awards, notably the 2022 Sir Misha Black Award for Distinguished Service to Design Education, the inaugural BADG of Honour for Design Education from the Black Artists and Designers Guild, and the 2023 SEGD Excellence in Design Education Award.
Dori's profound commitment to making an expansive impact beyond academia has led her to establish Dori Tunstall, Inc., a firm dedicated to decolonizing and diversifying institutional processes for companies and organizations through strategic consulting, care-shops, corporate education, and leadership coaching.
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Abby: Welcome to Matters of Experience, a podcast produced by Lorem Ipsum, an experience design company headquartered in New York City. Our podcast explores the creativity, innovation and psychology driving designed experiences and encounters. If you’re new, a hearty welcome. And to our regular listeners, thank you for tuning in and supporting our conversation. My name, if you don’t know it, is Abigail Honor.
Brenda: Hello, this is Brenda Cowan.
Abby: Today we’re speaking with Dori Tunstall, distinguish design anthropologist, celebrated author, visionary organizational design leader—can’t wait to hear about that—consultant, and coach. She is a pathbreaker of progressive approaches that challenge conventional design paradigms that exclude and harm indigenous cultures.
With a global career encompassing an Associate Professor of Design Anthropology at the University of Illinois at Chicago and Swinburne University in Australia, respectively, Dori made history as the first Black and Black female Dean of basically anywhere in the world at OCAD University in Toronto, Canada. Go Canada!
Her accomplishments have been recognized with numerous prestigious awards, which I am not about to list because we’ll be here the entire show, but most recently, the 2022 Sir Misha Black Award for Distinguished Service to Design Education. Dori, a huge welcome.
Dori: I am so excited to be in conversation with you, Abigail and Brenda.
Brenda: Oh, Dori, we’re so happy that you’re here. So, before we focus in on your incredible work with design, advocacy, and leadership, tell us what attracted you to cultural justice work in the first place?
Dori: I was born into it. I grew up in Indianapolis, Indiana. I am multi-generational African American, so, you know, like 7 to 10 generations that we can trace our family heritage in the United States and thus being culturally African American, which is a kind of hybrid mix of African, European and indigenous cultures, there’s an innate sense of attunement to cultural justice in which cultures get to be expressed, which cultures are repressed, which cultures you’re forced to assimilate to in order to survive. And it also brings, again, these opportunities for wonderful, you know, global celebration of culture and just my innate desire to understand how people think, how people move in the world has, you know, just deepened my, both my scholarship and my practice, right, around trying to understand culture and what it is and what it can mean to people.
Abby: Were your mom and dad involved in that sort of work? Tell me a little bit more about the influences that drew you into this sort of line of work.
Dori: I mean, I was born, I mean, you know, in 1972, in the 70s, so this is when you had the first introduction of like, Black History Month. So, my family was definitely involved with that.
There were always, you know, like there was always art around us. You know, I had cousins and uncles and stuff who were artists, so that was always encouraged. I talk about like how I became a designer is like, I have this book and volume number 11 is Make and Do. So, at the age of 10, I went through every single exercise in that book, which is like, you know, how to make stamps out of potatoes and build houses out of cardboard, so creative expression and an understanding of black culture was something that my family deeply, deeply advocated for and wanted to make sure that we were closely connected to.
Brenda: So, thinking about that and thinking about this incredible, you know, resume that you have today, I’m curious, was your journey, was it, like, fluid or were there a lot of unexpected turns and changes along the way that were unanticipated?
Dori: Yes. I always say that I’m like the queen of the zag. And I’ll give just like, really quick examples, so there’s a story that was told: at the age of 6, I said I was going to go to Harvard, and it was a thing that first my family’s response was like, you go, girl. Right? Like so there was something there that they actually felt that they could encourage me to do that.
So, I applied to Harvard University, but I encountered Bryn Mawr College, which is an all-women’s college, and it’s one of the Seven Sisters. And for me, the claim to fame is like, that’s where Katharine Hepburn graduated. So, I got into Harvard, but I zagged in the sense of going to Bryn Mawr College.
That was like one of my first zags, and I’ve never worked harder in my life intellectually than I did as an undergraduate at Bryn Mawr College, right, and making decisions to go from biochemistry to anthropology, like, I wouldn’t have done that. I wouldn’t have the environment to feel I could choose that pathway if I had gone to Harvard because there’s always a preconceived notion of like the pathway you’re choosing if you’ve chosen to go to Harvard, right?
Abby: So, is that what happened when you left university then? You graduated with your fancy science degree and then you zigged.
Dori: No, I didn’t get it. So, the other zag is that my junior year, I was supposed to decide whether I was going to be a biochemistry double major or go into anthropology. I took anthropology classes because physical anthropology is the first course that you take. And so, I was like, oh, I’m interested in anatomy and etc., etc. and I took a medical anthropology class because I was like, I’m a global person, and so I really want to understand how medicine works across the world. And I fell in love with the subject matter.
And so, I just kept taking more anthropology classes, and I decided that anthropology got me closer to why I wanted to do neurosurgery, which is I wanted to understand how people think. And in anthropology, you learn how people think, but you learn how people think in the way that they think. And I get to understand how people think in the way that they want you to understand how they think. Right? And so that was the other big zag, was then.
So, I ended up with a degree in anthropology. My family freaked out because they thought they were going to have to, like, carry me financially for the rest of their lives. They were like, what do you do with that? And then I went to Stanford and got my Ph.D. there. But then the other zag, right, is that I went into high tech consulting at Sapient/E-Lab, and that was on a totally different trajectory. But then when they saw my salary, they were fine.
Brenda: I’m a parent of a young person who just got an undergrad in fine arts, you know, and I’m just like, baby, you just got to do what you got to do. You got to follow your heart. And she’s now going into art therapy.
Dori: I mean, you know, the, you know, my family is very much like working class, right? And so, like those questions of like, the sacrifices, let’s say, that are made to set you on a pathway where you’re like, okay, she’s going to Harvard in ten years or whatever, right? I understand deeply the anxiety because the intent is, again, if you’re working class, you want your children to be upwardly mobile, right? And so, this idea of, okay, how many zeros is it, is also a marker for them of like, okay, we’ve done a good job. Right? We’ve set them up for independence. We’ve set them up for potentially intergenerational wealth. And we created you know like a possibility model for everyone else in the family.
Abby: Yeah, the family and the community. The community modeling that happens when somebody gets so far, like, I think it inspires other people and other people’s kids
So, moving from the early, very impressive years to your most recent accomplishment, so we’re going to talk about this extraordinary book titled Decolonizing Design: A Cultural Justice Guidebook, where you have a powerful take on the role and responsibility of designers and cultural leaders to really take action towards amending social and societal injustices through design. Tell us what decolonizing means to you and why this is your current passion.
Dori: Decolonization is about reestablishing indigenous sovereignty as the land, meaning, like, there’s practice we do, like a land acknowledgment, right? So, I’m on the land of Tongva, Chumash, Tataviam peoples here in, you know, Los Angeles. So there’s that recognition of and the rematriation of the land back to those communities
And then it’s dismantling all of these structures that have been put in place to maintain this hierarchy that has put Europeans and their descendants at the top, African Americans or African peoples at the bottom, and then everyone else trying to figure out how they fit in between. So, decolonization is that process, right, of reckoning, it’s acknowledging the harms that have been done and then making the true actions of amends to redress those harms.
Abby: Do you think we can ever right the wrongs of the past completely?
Dori: Yes. Luckily, being in, like, California, you begin to see that happen, right? Like you have 100,000 acres have been rematriated to the Shasta Indigenous Nations. And again, whatever people’s fears are about that, like, nothing happens. The Indigenous communities continue to remain generous, right, in their approach to reconciliation.
Brenda: You know, in talking about decolonization efforts, I’m curious, Dori, if you could talk to us a little bit about how it is that in your experience, organizations, institutions have been falling short over the years, and I recognize this is probably a massive, I know it’s a massive question, but I’m curious if there are any specific missteps or lack of steps that you’ve encountered.
Dori: Well, in the book, I try to talk about it in two very personal ways. The first chapter is Putting Indigenous First, and it’s really about the story of my own humility that I had to cultivate in terms of working with Indigenous communities and Indigenous faculty and the sense of recognizing that, whatever struggle, civil rights struggle that I may have, right, as African American, there’s a different struggle that in some ways holds first precedence, right, over redressing for that. And it expresses itself in, really, ways, so again, like asking to be in partnership, I do a lot of work around cultural appropriation and misappropriation, and the heart of that, the grievances around that that, why didn’t you just ask to be in community with us, to be sharing with us? Right, like we would have done it in collaboration.
And again, amends are being done. Like Ralph Lauren and the Polo brand just started their third collection with Naiomi Glasses, whose, Diné designers have, they’ve done three collections to go, this is the last one. Equal credit. Right? Give back to the community, not just the individual. Again, her name is plastered all over, everywhere. I’m assuming paid very, very well and continuous. Right? Like it just wasn’t a one off. And again, like, if you talk 20, 30 years ago, Ralph Lauren was like cultural appropriator number one. 2020, had a reckoning, changed the way their business worked, to success, right, because I’m upset because it came out yesterday and it’s like it’s almost all sold out.
Brenda: You know, you’re reminding me, just, it’s like a personal side note, but the whole idea of humility, and especially when working with, with Indigenous folks and I was working on a project with the Smithsonian, the Museum of the American Indian, and I was learning about and working with Haudenosaunee and folks from the Iroquois Confederacy. And I kept slipping up, using the right language to talk about, you know, is it the Iroquois Confederacy? Is it the Haudenosaunee, and how do I get this just right in the exhibition work that I was doing? And I kept getting corrected by one of the Haudenosaunee women who was working with us. And I just kept saying thank you because she didn’t make me feel stupid. She didn’t make me feel ashamed. And at any rate, I just remember feeling gratitude. A really warm combination of humility and gratitude.
Dori: The two things that I always mess up in my relationships with Indigenous people, but other community, cultural communities as well, is, one: is being present. There’s a lot of trauma, right, that is very close in Indigenous communities, which is very triggering because African Americans have experienced like, again, same types of trauma, different timelines, like I say, like the, if you think of the residential school, you’re talking about people’s parents and grandparents, right, in terms of like, how close the harm is. Whereas even if we’re talking about like Jim Crow and a lot of those things, it’s something that I think of in terms of like my great grandparents. And so, to even have like that generation of difference means the trauma affects you in a different way, right? So, the thing I talk about is like having to be present in their joy and in their grief and in their anger because that’s, that demonstrates I care, right, it demonstrates that I understand them as peoples and I’m present for whatever they’re feeling.
The other thing and I still fail with this one and it’s, it’s hard, it’s not hardwired, it just takes a lot more practice, is that like, I am the queen of productivity, I am the queen of the Gantt chart. And it’s how I think, like when I think of an idea, I already have, like what the strategy needs to be and you know, what are the operations. So, it’s like, the moment the idea comes, I’m like, okay, these are the next steps, which is great. It means like, this is why I get to lead a lot of stuff, right? But it also means that if people are not operating under that same sense of time and task, which many of my Indigenous colleagues and more importantly, Indigenous processes of decision making does not fit within a Gantt chart, then I end up actually causing harm to a lot of my indigenous relationships, because I’m so trapped in this idea that there’s a time frame in which this needs to happen.
And again, I appreciate what you’re saying, because I would say it took me a moment to realize that the act of calling out is an act of love. It is saying, I want to be in good relations with you. So, I’m going to tell you what’s going on.
Brenda: You know, I have a question; we’ve been hearing about making amends, right, we’ve talked about that a little bit. And I’m really curious, you know, in your work, you talk about how it is that we need to make amends far beyond DEAI. Can you tell us what you mean by that?
Dori: So, the way in which DEAI is normally framed is around hiring. And in the book, I talk about the fact that, like, the way in which hiring is generally done is that they’re looking for a super token, which is, again, an individual, you know, who has an extraordinary resume, again, from structurally marginalized identities, whose talents are so desired by institutions that they’re willing to kind of put aside any aversions they have to those identities in order to access those talents. And, you know, I’ve consulted with enough academic institutions and they’re all like, who’s the super token? Right? Like, who’s the Indigenous Ph.D. from MIT that we can recruit to come to our, you know, I don’t know, backwater institution in order to make us feel like we’re decolonizing. Again, important and necessary. But it has to be done in a context that leads to success.
So, first of all, the person is in isolation, which, you’re structurally setting them up to be manipulated by the institution and actually not bring about change, right? So, you need to hire for critical mass, bring in five people a year so that they can begin to build a pocket of culture from which they can draw the strength to challenge every institutional thing that you have in terms of how it’s not working for the identities that they embody.
And that means then you’re talking about like, you know, everything from like, yes, the hiring process, but you’re also talking about, okay, what are the ways in which courses might be assigned, the workload might be assigned? What are the ways in which recruiting is done? What counts as work? Does all this community engagement count as work. So, you’re changing all of these sort of structures that exist within the institution so that they will feel free to contribute all of who they are to the institution and connect the institution to those communities that you’re wanting to embrace. Right?
Abby: Did you realize all this, like on your journey? Have you lived all of these situations?
Dori: Yeah.
Abby: Right, that’s what it feels like.
Dori: Well, and the notion of the super token came because people kept asking me, what does it feel like to be the first Black and Black female, and I said, well, it’s bittersweet because on the one hand, there is sweetness because you’ve broken through a particular type of barrier. Right? And people are inspired by that. Like there are young people who start crying just from meeting you because you’ve opened up possibilities for them. Right?
But it’s also bitter because you think of like, who are all the people that were rejected? By the system. So that it takes you in 2016 to be the first. So, my answer to that is like well it’s complicated because I’m a super token. Again, in terms of the meritocracy game, I’m exceeding expectations. That is a barrier, right? Because then people say, oh, we would hire more X, Y and Z if they were like Dori. Well, Dori’s not even like Dori. So, the responsibility of a person who’s a super token is actually to dismantle all of those structures that put them in that position of being a super token.
Brenda: That is a really tall order.
Dori: It is. I mean, this, you know, again, why my second book is The Super Tokens: The First, and the Only is as I went on tour for the last, you know, year and a half or so, people come up to me and were sharing their stories of being a super token. And first of all, they were thanking me for the term because they had a way to explain the tensions between what they were feeling in their career of, on the one hand, exceptional performance, but on the other hand, constantly failing disrespected. Right? And/or rejected by their institution. So, the idea in some ways of the second book is really to be able to embrace their stories and to draw from them what individuals and institutions need to learn, so that those experiences of those super tokens are not so painful.
And it’s a reminder for super tokens themselves of like what their role was supposed to be, because one of the things, the hard conversations that I’m having right now, let’s say, with the Black community, is that, you know, our trajectory in terms of how we’ve been structured is for us to want to join the institution. Right? We are super excited because Kamala Harris is about ready to join this super institution, right? Like President of the United States. And that’s what you’re taught. Your purpose is to infiltrate these institutions. But that is not enough, right? And that’s the part where it’s like, it is more than DEI, because it is not enough. You actually have to be engaged with dismantling empire, dismantling oppression.
And when you’re a super token, sometimes, again, your everyday struggle to exist in the institution in ways that you’re so focused on survival in the institution that you’re not focused on liberation. So, there’s also the reminder that if you are in an institution as a super token, you’re not there just to join. You’re there to create structures of liberation by dismantling and reassembling the institutions and in a way that is more just, more fair, more equitable.
Brenda: You know, we’ve talked, and the word liberation has come up a number of times. And I’m so taken with your message about humility and being informed when working with others, with being a partner and ally. And you talk about how we can experience liberation in not being afraid, right, to say no to something that could harm you. When we’re able to manage the vulnerability and the humility required to do this, we can foster connection and joy. I’ve heard you speak about this in other forums, and you term this liberatory joy. Tell us, how can we all exercise liberatory joy in our work?
Dori: There’s a workshop that I give, and I’ve given it twice, quite successfully, which is Designing a Pathway for Liberatory Joy. And in it, I ask people to first know thyself. So, I ask people to identify their positionality vis-à-vis structures of oppression. Then, decide on something they want to say no to, but feel they can’t. Once they’ve kind of sketched out like a pathway of like what, what would it mean to say yes to that thing? Imagine what like a positive outcome would be of saying yes to that thing you want to say no to. And then what are the systems that you have to, like, engage with in order to be able to get to that yes.
All it is, is just setting up a methodology to begin to say, like, no to the things that I want and need to say no to, so that I can say yes to the things that are going to bring me closer together to myself, closer to communities that I love and find nurturance with, closer to whatever higher purpose, right, that sparks my imagination and my commitment. And to say, you know, when I say liberation is saying no to that which might harm you, it becomes really clear, as we’re hyper aware of the things that might harm us. So, all of a sudden, and then people begin to think is like, can I say no to that? Can I say no to that job? Can I say no to that housing situation? Can I say no to that policeman? Right, all of a sudden you begin to accumulate all the things that are actually oppressing you, and then you figure it out: what’s your pathway to liberation?
And you can’t do it as an individual. You feel so overwhelmed if you’re trying to achieve liberation as an individual. So, it is only by trying to connect with others to others, right, that we, we create the conditions in which everyone can say yes to that which affirms them and nurtures them. And connection to me is joy, like, why we love music is because it connects us. You can have a bunch of people all moving in sync because the rhythm gives them a point of connection to one another, right?
Brenda: Well, I say yes to you, Dori, and I say yes to this moment that the three of us have.
Abby: Yes, I say yes too, this was incredible. Thank you, Dori, so much for sharing your zigzagging pathway with us today and sort of opening my mind and hopefully the listeners minds, liberating us all en masse.
Dori: Thank you so much again. It’s such a pleasure and you are such wonderful interlocutors, so let me know anytime you want to do it again.
Brenda: Oh my gosh, well this, this does beg for a sequel, I must say, because I feel we’ve only just scratched the surface. So—
Abby: So maybe, maybe after your next book tour.
Dori: Yes.
Abby: We’ll see you at the end of that. Thanks to everyone who tuned in today. If you like what you heard, please subscribe for more episodes of Matters of Experience where you listen to podcasts. Make sure to leave a rating and a review and share with a friend. We’ll see you next time.
Brenda: Thank you so much everyone!
[Music]
Producer: Matters of Experience is produced by Lorem Ipsum Corp and recorded at Hangar Studios. Tune in next time for more fun discussions about experience design.
How Do We Decolonize Design? with Dori Tunstall
Small Museums, Big Impact with Alli Schell
Science After Hours | The Franklin Institute
[Music]
Abby: Welcome to Matters of Experience. My name is Abigail Honor.
Brenda: And I’m Brenda Cowan.
Abby: This podcast is produced by Lorem Ipsum, here in New York City, and explores the creativity, innovation, and psychology driving design experiences and encounters. Hello to anybody listening for the first time and welcome back to our regular listeners.
Today our guest is Alli Schell, who, after wearing many hats in the world of museums early on in her career, now works as the Director of Public Programs at the Marshall Steam Museum in Yorklyn, Delaware, where she champions small museums, which is one of the subjects of today’s podcast. She has been around museums almost her entire life, thanks to her father who took her to cultural sites on her summers off. Alli, a big welcome to the show.
Brenda: Welcome, Alli.
Alli: Thank you so much. I am a big fan of your podcast and just appreciate all that you do for the museum community. So, thank you for having me.
Brenda: Well, we’re so excited to have you, and let’s just get kick started by having you tell us a little bit about your early exposure to museums and historic sites, and what is it about your upbringing that influenced the path that your professional life has taken?
Alli: So big thanks to my father, who is a now retired history teacher. He taught eighth grade history, which it’s its own special kind of challenge. He loved teaching middle school students. And I think one of my first museum memories is at four years old, going to Colonial Williamsburg with him.
But on his summers off, that’s what we would do. We would go and visit different cultural sites all on the East Coast, and I just was so influenced by him. So then decided when I turned 16, I got my driver’s license, the thing that I decided to do on my weekends was, you know, not drive to the mall or other places, was to go volunteer at my local museums. And this first museum that I volunteered at, I remember approaching sort of the supervisor there and trying to think of ways to draw more people into the museum. And this was at 17 years old, and the museum was located kind of in this town where there was a central hub, almost like a wagon wheel. And the central hub is where everybody kind of gathered.
They had farmer’s markets on the weekends and different things going on. And I remember on the weekends I would drive past and see all these people kind of gather in the middle, but then they wouldn’t trickle down into where our museum was just a block or two off of this central spot, and I approached her and I was like, we should go up and, you know, I’m already in costume, I’ll be happy to hand out pamphlets and brochures and talk people up. They even put a sign out. I was like brainstorming all these different things and very genuinely they were like, yeah, go and do that. That sounds like a great idea.
Brenda: You’re a natural.
Alli: Even then I was already thinking more about how to propel small museums forward.
Abby: Where do you think people like you get that drive to go the extra mile? And is it only in this area of your life or is it in other subjects at school? Like, do you think it’s just central to who you are? Or is it specifically about this subject matter?
Alli: I think it just goes back to, for me, being really drawn to museums and their missions and what they’re about and just trying to help them to survive. It’s almost like a small museum philosophy of just letting people know that these places exist, they’re here in the community, and you should come and check us out. And I think it also goes back to my father in terms of just like teaching style and being sort of engaging or sort of interpretation.
You know, he taught history so he could have just done the usual thing, we just kind of go through the book. But he would go the extra mile, and on these summers off, he would go and use his own money, it’s very common for teachers, and purchase extra things, and he would do these like weeklong, sort of interactive experiences based around Civil War history and then also the American Revolution. And he made so many kids become teachers because of that, because he had this sort of interactive style of teaching and that has just stuck with me, and that is kind of my approach because I do public programs and education.
So, I know, I know I’m giving my dad a big shout out, but he so deserves it because he just really influenced me, and that’s, sometimes what it takes is just like one person to kind of be sort of your vision and kind of sets you on your path.
Brenda: Well, I’ll tell you something: what I think is going to be revealed pretty quickly in this, is that you yourself have quite a vision. Let’s talk about your first job-job, which was a director position. Who starts out as a director? That’s incredible. A very small museum, but they took a chance on you, which is really admirable. What was that first role like for you? How did you make your mark?
Abby: I want the terrifying, I want the terrifying—
Brenda: Abby wants to know if you were terrified.
Abby: You were terrified!
Alli: I don’t think I was terrified. I think I was terrified of my first board meeting. I don’t think I was daunted by the actual act of taking on a small museum. I think I was just very excited, and also very humbled that they just appreciated sort of youthful or emerging professional ideas and energy. And I know you’re going to make me emotional just because I always just consider myself this kind of small fish in a really big pond and just kind of make my mark behind the scenes, and that’s kind of what I like to do.
Now, the interesting thing about landing this position was—I don’t think you could really do this anymore, but I was so desperate, I guess, to get a position out of graduate school that I looked up a list of museums in all the places that I was willing to move to, and just went down the list and emailed them and was sharing my resume and looking on their websites and this was the place that I ended up at, was one of the places. And they got back to me right away and they were like, actually, we’re looking for a director, you know, send over your resume, cover letter, and we’d love to consider you. And I remember thinking, there’s no way. I’m an emerging professional. There is no way they’re going to hire me. So, I actually, I ignored the email.
Abby: Oh, no, Alli!
Brenda: Oh no.
Alli: And like a couple days later, and they were like, hey, we still haven’t gotten your cover letter and resume. You know, we’d still love to consider you. And I was like, oh, okay, well, I’ll send it in. Immediately get back to me, set up an interview and the rest is history. Yeah, they, they chose me.
Abby: That’s awesome.
Brenda: Oh, wonderful.
Abby: And which museum was this Alli?
Alli: It’s called the Milton Historical Society. It was in an old church. So, it was this quirky little, small museum located right downtown in Milton, Delaware, which is maybe about 30 minutes north of a lot of the Delaware beaches.
Abby: I want to hear about the t-shirt story, because I find that absolutely fascinating, and sort of that overall latitude you had in your role.
Alli: So, the Milton Historical Society, not only was it sort of the local history of the town, but Milton was also part of the shipbuilding industry in the southern part of the state. And, I don’t know, I just have all these different parts of me, I also have a very creative side, and so it manifested itself in me wanting to make a t-shirt for the gift shop. And I also love a good pun. So, because the town also has a little, has that quirky side to it, I was like, well, let me see if I can get away with this. And so, the shirt said, “Oh Ship” on the front, and it had a little tagline about, you know, “Shipbuilding Happens” in, you know, Milton, Delaware. I can’t remember exactly what the back said. And I was like, oh, this is right on the line.
Abby: Did they sell?
Alli: Mhm.
Abby: I knew it.
Alli: Oh, my goodness. And even years later, people remember this shirt. They asked me about it. So yeah, I think I made my mark in, in some way, even if it was just this terrible pun t-shirt.
Abby: But I think one of the fun advantages of working in a small museum and running it, like you really do wear multiple hats, you really can work in, you know, the grassroots marketing or in the merchandizing and be aware of, like who is your visitor? How is it cyclical, how is it seasonal? And you can really affect change.
Brenda: But what were some of the challenges, Alli?
Alli: Oh boy.
Brenda: Some.
Alli: Well, I think always with small museums right. I think just coming in, being the only full-time staff, I had two part time staff workers. So, it was just like everything—I was on all the time. When you’re in a small museum, you can see directly the influence you have, whether it’s through an “Oh Ship” t-shirt or a new exhibit you’re doing, or just working with the community and talking to them when they come and visit the museum. So, you get really addicted to seeing the influence that you have in a positive way. And that means that you end up taking on more and more and more. And I think I just got to a point, after two years that I realized I was burnt out and that, you know, being a director was very interesting and a really great learning experience.
But I realized there were areas I liked and areas that I didn’t like. So, to transition out of that is an interesting thing because people are like, well, you hit the top, you know, where do you go from there? And a lot of people say, oh, you’re kind of downgrading. But for me, because I don’t have an ego about those kinds of things, it was just more important that I set up my career pathway and my story. And I realized that out of this, the things I really liked were programing and education. You know that you really don’t like the administrative side.
And also, some of the other challenges, such as like with HR. When you’re a small museum, a lot of times you don’t have an HR department, and when something actually happens—I won’t get into the details—when something actually happens to you, and pretty much the only HR department that you have potentially at a small museum is your board, that gets really tough. And so, there were a couple situations I had to navigate where I was like, I can’t really rely on my board just because of the nature of the thing. So, how do you do it?
And one of them, I had to actually involve a stakeholder in the community because I had to think really creatively. I was like, how do I, how do I bring someone else in with influence that can help with this situation? But I can’t rely on the organization to kind of help, help figure this out.
Brenda: You certainly were very nimble, though, in terms of how you, I mean, the idea of bringing in an outside stakeholder and figuring out how to do that in a way that was safe. I’m just really personally very inspired by your thinking and how you were able to pivot and sort of you know, address just how to address things like this where there’s no, like, answer.
Abby: And I think that’s good advice for anybody in a situation, right? When there’s one against many and you feel either you’re not getting heard or your point across or something’s unfair, bringing in, you know, a third party, a mediator, somebody who can offer a fresh perspective often helps to solve the issue in some way, shape or form. But it seems to me that wherever you go, whatever organization you join, you really are trying to elevate them and make them successful. And so, you’ve brought to the community a number of different things. Can you talk about some of your programs?
Alli: Well, yeah, partnerships I think are one of my favorite things. You’re centered somewhere in a community, and I don’t ever feel like I’m in competition with another organization. I feel like we’re both kind of fighting the same fight. And I guess one of the best examples of that was I was working at another small museum that had historic houses, and one historic house was kind of located a little further away from kind of the main campus of where things were. And I really wanted to highlight that building. It was very cool, was an 18th century tavern, and I always go to different museum programs and kind of get inspired.
So, I will give a shout out to The Franklin Institute’s Science After Hours. I had gone and the whole museum was open, and people could kind of explore around, and they had different themes each night that you went. And there were different stations, and it was really interactive and fun. And I was like, well, what if I superimpose that kind of idea on to this historic tavern? And one of the big features that I kind of picked up on and that people were always drawn to, was just exploring the house. Let them at their own pace, explore the house, and then each room has something interactive.
So, whether it’s someone from the community doing a presentation or they’re writing with a, you know, a quill pen, for example, or they’re making 18th century insults with different words, and I would just come up with some of these activities, it really activated the space and made it come alive. And this event would be like sold out, I think I did this for about two and a half years.
But then the other, other side to it was the volunteer side. And so, we ended up getting this core group of volunteers that loved to help out. And I would also give them some ownership, so I send them kind of, here’s your area that you’re going to help with and here’s some information on it, but you know, you’re your own person, like take it and go with it. And so, they loved that so much that I just had this core group that would come volunteer every month. And it was just, that was probably one of my favorite things I ever kind of created.
Abby: Okay, so recently you shot into everyone’s LinkedIn channel when you posted your open letter to the American Alliance of Museums and their treatment of small museums. So, a little background to your story for our listeners.
You attended the conference this year after about a ten-year hiatus, because back then you were told a small museum meant a staff of 30 or more, which certainly wasn’t you. So now you’re back. Hopeful, optimistic, proud to represent real small museums in a panel presentation on small museums. Perfect for you. And the rooms overcrowded, so they have to set up extra seats and like super, super well attended. And the topic is important to this massive group of people because I think it’s about 85% of people in our profession work at small museums.
And now, Ali, tell us what happened.
Alli: So, I had ten years ago attended AAM as an emerging professional, I knew I had landed that director position and then yes, they had, the person at the panel had mentioned their staff size of it had to at least have been like 20 or 30 individuals. I was like that, that is not a small museum. And so there I was just kind of like, I was a little defeated in some ways because AAM—and I don’t want this, I’m just going to preface this: I don’t want this to be a bashing of AAM at all. And so, you know, you will see that for my letter, I just, it’s a call for just being proactive in general. But, you know, you kind of look to them as the thought leaders and sort of the overall kind of support system for museums in the US.
And so just to have that experience was just like really disappointing, and then going back ten years later, getting on this panel, for me, it was like correcting an error in the past of now I actually get to do that session that I was really hoping for ten years ago, but then I was just noticing and even just talking with colleagues, so the letter is kind of a, also, representation of some other just conversations, and I was like, I’m happy to be the, kind of, I’ll have the target on my back—conversations I had had with other employees, and there’s just some things that really turned us off, and to see that things just really hadn’t changed in some ways, or maybe reverted back in some ways.
And so just really wanted to call AAM and others out as to, you know, hey, we got to fix this and fix some other things, or, you know, how can we all come together? We’re a creative field, so we’re all connected to different resources. So, if it isn’t AAM, who else can do it?
Brenda: It is important to note that AAM is really the big player, certainly in the United States, you know, and we can talk about ICOM, you know, of course, as well and on an international level, by mission. But AAM is not insignificant. How is it that AAM is a mismatch currently for small museums?
Alli: So first and foremost, just small museum representation. So, if you’ve never worked at a small museum, you don’t really understand the challenges. And also, the really great things that a small museum can bring. And so, you know, just noticing that just about all of leadership and probably for a long time, I haven’t gone back and really done a full deep dive of that, have been, you know, people that come from larger museum backgrounds or even sort of, you know, higher executive positions.
So that was just kind of disappointing that there isn’t sort of a spread within the leadership there, executive leadership. And then articles as well. I know that there was someone at one point that was kind of really championing, on their staff, quite a few years ago with small museums, so they had helped create the small museum accreditation pathway, because there are just some things, like accreditation that really weren’t accessible to small museums in certain grants. Even though they’ll say it’s for anybody, there are just things set up that already are limiting.
So, some grants, some larger grants looking for like, what staff member is going to do this and this and this? And I had, even me, because I was ambitious when I was a director and I was like, I’m going to apply for an NEH grant before they had created the small museum grant and just even filling it out, I was like, I don’t think I have a chance.
I want to do it; I want to go for it. But, you know, they were like, well, what staff members getting assigned to this role and this role, I’m like, it’s just me. And then, yeah, they would have, so this person that was sort of championing small museums also I think was kind of instrumental, it’s just my take, in getting a lot of these small museum articles, because they always have the articles that they post out, which is really great resources in general.
But sometimes, a lot of times I read through them and I’m like, okay, that’s a great case study, but it doesn’t really apply to my site and that’s always what I’m looking for as a small museum person is, how can I take this information and how can I like objectively apply that to my site? And so not to simplify things, but I know that we’re like, we just got to get things done, so help us make that happen.
Abby: And what were some of those solutions then? Because I know, you know, in the open letter you lay out some of the solutions to benefit the museum community that you offered up to AAM.
Alli: Yes. So, I didn’t want to write a letter that was just, you know, being angry and upset, and I just want to preface that I did get to meet with some representatives recently at AAM, so they have started the conversation. But basically, some things that I put up, of course, very simply, just like create space for small museums to be in leadership positions and I think also there are some parts of AAM that have like paywalls or higher admission rates to attend certain things. And like even the annual conference is just, can be like inaccessible just in terms of costs, even for like emerging professionals. And of course, there’s some ways you can always kind of get around that. If you kind of volunteer or get a scholarship, not to say that they don’t give pathways to affordability, but still, just as a base level, it’s pretty expensive. And I get it. It’s a larger conference. So, places like Small Museum Association have like a way more affordable conference for me that I just have gone to every year and I get what I need out of it. But, you know, thinking just maybe they can think more creatively about some ways that things are structured.
Even for posting jobs. They have a job board and there is a fee associated with that. And so, I do career coaching stuff as well for museum professionals and for me when I see something like that, it just means that only certain jobs are going to get posted because they’re not going to post, let’s say, an entry level position or an internship necessarily. I think they did make a change from this, internship’s being posted on there, but you know, you’re not going to spend 250 bucks to post a smaller, lower-level position versus, you know, they’re going to put that money into executive directors, for example
So just some equity in there in terms of like opening it up so that, you know, there isn’t really one space for museum people to find a job, period. There isn’t one resource out there. So that really needs to change. Even just advocacy in general for funding. I think, in terms of grants and like, I just am thinking of things that are kind of like just help move the needle for museums in general, is there was a time during the pandemic where grants actually were funding operational costs and staff members and things like that versus the project aspect.
And I thought, oh, this is really great, seeing a lot of these grant makers kind of shift that during the pandemic. And then they shifted right back. So, I’m like, AAM already does these advocacy days who can kind of help talk to these grant makers and be like, this is actually what we need, and that would solve so many problems. So, for museums, if we could just have some funding for the people that work at these organizations who then could do these projects.
Abby: So, let’s do that: shout out to the, to people in the grant business. Please, please, please, please make a grant that helps support small museum staff and their operations.
Alli: Museum staff in general for any museum, you know. I think, some of these things benefit museums of all sizes.
Brenda: I had a conversation a couple of years ago with, with a very notable person in the museum world, and we were talking about the idea of small museums. And this individual very fervently said that it’s a frustration of theirs, that funding would ever go to a small museum, and that it’s the big museums that can be the change makers.
And I disagreed, disagreed at the time, and continued to disagree with that notion, and instead feel that the real change makers are going to be these smaller, nimble, we’ll go back to ships, it’s the tiny ship, and not the cruise ship that’s able to more nimbly pivot and be responsive to the times and be responsive to individuals and individual causes even. Would you agree with that?
Alli: Absolutely. I mean an example I can give, coming back to ships, right, so even just during the pandemic, I had an idea like day one when everything got shut down to do sort of an online program. And my boss was like, yeah, go for it, do it. So, I was able to get that program up and running in like a day. So just being able to pivot on a dime like that when you have this, the smaller sloops versus the larger ships really makes a difference.
And, you know, being able to just see what you need to do for that community or what you need to do in general. I think being community resources is super important, so you’ve seen a lot more museums become like voter registration sites, just even community gathering spots for lots of just different events that may or may not relate to the museum, but it’s a place that’s, you know, where people just go to gather, supporting the people in the community, not just the visitors, but the people that are working and volunteering there and supporting them, as much as you’re supporting the visitor and recognizing that the people that are probably working and volunteering there might have some ideas too and commitment to the community that you’re serving.
Brenda: Well, being that AAM stopped it’s work with small professional groups as a part of its organizational structure, in response to that, the Society for Experiential Graphic Design, SEGD, they have just started a brand-new professional practices group, that I must say has received a rousing amount of interest from the community. They have created their own professional practice group specific to museums.
They anticipate creating several, I believe, of these professional practices groups, but they have started with museums. And Alli, I don’t know if you are on board, but please do take a peek and get the small museum representation in the mix there. And I am very willing to believe that they would be very receptive to your voice and the voices of small museums being a part of that practice group.
Alli: Yeah, excellent. I think that’s just what needs to happen. And knowing that there is space for these smaller museums to have a voice is really helpful. And that’s kind of also what, in my conversation with AAM, that they’re like, you know, hey, we already did some outreach to some of these different committees and things that we have here, and they’re aware and are open to, you know, people applying. So, I think it’s, part of it is knowing that there is a space.
Abby: Yeah, well, they have new leadership, and this is exactly what they need to hear. And obviously they’re working with you, which I think is a great result. They’re listening, which is so important. So, you know, forging forward and making change is so important. So, thank you Alli so much for joining us today and shining light on small museums and their importance to local communities that they serve, and for honestly and candidly discussing the challenges of working in a small museum that staff face as you strive to thrive.
Alli: We try. Sometimes it doesn’t feel like it but—
Abby: Keep going, Alli. Keep going. Take a deep breath.
Brenda: Absolutely. You have a lot of people who are grateful for you and certainly including Abby and myself.
Abby: 100%.
Alli: Oh my gosh, I’m so humbled. Thank you so much.
Abby: And thanks to everyone who tuned in today. If you like what you heard, subscribe to more episodes of Matters of Experience, more episodes of Abby and Brenda, and wherever you listen to podcasts, make sure to leave a rating and a review and share with a friend. We’ll see you next time.
Brenda: Take good care of yourselves, everyone.
[Music]
Producer: Matters of Experience is produced by Lorem Ipsum Corp and recorded at Hangar Studios. Tune in next time for more fun discussions about experience design.
Science After Hours | The Franklin Institute
[Music]
Abby: Welcome to Matters of Experience. My name is Abigail Honor.
Brenda: And I’m Brenda Cowan.
Abby: This podcast is produced by Lorem Ipsum, here in New York City, and explores the creativity, innovation, and psychology driving design experiences and encounters. Hello to anybody listening for the first time and welcome back to our regular listeners.
Today our guest is Alli Schell, who, after wearing many hats in the world of museums early on in her career, now works as the Director of Public Programs at the Marshall Steam Museum in Yorklyn, Delaware, where she champions small museums, which is one of the subjects of today’s podcast. She has been around museums almost her entire life, thanks to her father who took her to cultural sites on her summers off. Alli, a big welcome to the show.
Brenda: Welcome, Alli.
Alli: Thank you so much. I am a big fan of your podcast and just appreciate all that you do for the museum community. So, thank you for having me.
Brenda: Well, we’re so excited to have you, and let’s just get kick started by having you tell us a little bit about your early exposure to museums and historic sites, and what is it about your upbringing that influenced the path that your professional life has taken?
Alli: So big thanks to my father, who is a now retired history teacher. He taught eighth grade history, which it’s its own special kind of challenge. He loved teaching middle school students. And I think one of my first museum memories is at four years old, going to Colonial Williamsburg with him.
But on his summers off, that’s what we would do. We would go and visit different cultural sites all on the East Coast, and I just was so influenced by him. So then decided when I turned 16, I got my driver’s license, the thing that I decided to do on my weekends was, you know, not drive to the mall or other places, was to go volunteer at my local museums. And this first museum that I volunteered at, I remember approaching sort of the supervisor there and trying to think of ways to draw more people into the museum. And this was at 17 years old, and the museum was located kind of in this town where there was a central hub, almost like a wagon wheel. And the central hub is where everybody kind of gathered.
They had farmer’s markets on the weekends and different things going on. And I remember on the weekends I would drive past and see all these people kind of gather in the middle, but then they wouldn’t trickle down into where our museum was just a block or two off of this central spot, and I approached her and I was like, we should go up and, you know, I’m already in costume, I’ll be happy to hand out pamphlets and brochures and talk people up. They even put a sign out. I was like brainstorming all these different things and very genuinely they were like, yeah, go and do that. That sounds like a great idea.
Brenda: You’re a natural.
Alli: Even then I was already thinking more about how to propel small museums forward.
Abby: Where do you think people like you get that drive to go the extra mile? And is it only in this area of your life or is it in other subjects at school? Like, do you think it’s just central to who you are? Or is it specifically about this subject matter?
Alli: I think it just goes back to, for me, being really drawn to museums and their missions and what they’re about and just trying to help them to survive. It’s almost like a small museum philosophy of just letting people know that these places exist, they’re here in the community, and you should come and check us out. And I think it also goes back to my father in terms of just like teaching style and being sort of engaging or sort of interpretation.
You know, he taught history so he could have just done the usual thing, we just kind of go through the book. But he would go the extra mile, and on these summers off, he would go and use his own money, it’s very common for teachers, and purchase extra things, and he would do these like weeklong, sort of interactive experiences based around Civil War history and then also the American Revolution. And he made so many kids become teachers because of that, because he had this sort of interactive style of teaching and that has just stuck with me, and that is kind of my approach because I do public programs and education.
So, I know, I know I’m giving my dad a big shout out, but he so deserves it because he just really influenced me, and that’s, sometimes what it takes is just like one person to kind of be sort of your vision and kind of sets you on your path.
Brenda: Well, I’ll tell you something: what I think is going to be revealed pretty quickly in this, is that you yourself have quite a vision. Let’s talk about your first job-job, which was a director position. Who starts out as a director? That’s incredible. A very small museum, but they took a chance on you, which is really admirable. What was that first role like for you? How did you make your mark?
Abby: I want the terrifying, I want the terrifying—
Brenda: Abby wants to know if you were terrified.
Abby: You were terrified!
Alli: I don’t think I was terrified. I think I was terrified of my first board meeting. I don’t think I was daunted by the actual act of taking on a small museum. I think I was just very excited, and also very humbled that they just appreciated sort of youthful or emerging professional ideas and energy. And I know you’re going to make me emotional just because I always just consider myself this kind of small fish in a really big pond and just kind of make my mark behind the scenes, and that’s kind of what I like to do.
Now, the interesting thing about landing this position was—I don’t think you could really do this anymore, but I was so desperate, I guess, to get a position out of graduate school that I looked up a list of museums in all the places that I was willing to move to, and just went down the list and emailed them and was sharing my resume and looking on their websites and this was the place that I ended up at, was one of the places. And they got back to me right away and they were like, actually, we’re looking for a director, you know, send over your resume, cover letter, and we’d love to consider you. And I remember thinking, there’s no way. I’m an emerging professional. There is no way they’re going to hire me. So, I actually, I ignored the email.
Abby: Oh, no, Alli!
Brenda: Oh no.
Alli: And like a couple days later, and they were like, hey, we still haven’t gotten your cover letter and resume. You know, we’d still love to consider you. And I was like, oh, okay, well, I’ll send it in. Immediately get back to me, set up an interview and the rest is history. Yeah, they, they chose me.
Abby: That’s awesome.
Brenda: Oh, wonderful.
Abby: And which museum was this Alli?
Alli: It’s called the Milton Historical Society. It was in an old church. So, it was this quirky little, small museum located right downtown in Milton, Delaware, which is maybe about 30 minutes north of a lot of the Delaware beaches.
Abby: I want to hear about the t-shirt story, because I find that absolutely fascinating, and sort of that overall latitude you had in your role.
Alli: So, the Milton Historical Society, not only was it sort of the local history of the town, but Milton was also part of the shipbuilding industry in the southern part of the state. And, I don’t know, I just have all these different parts of me, I also have a very creative side, and so it manifested itself in me wanting to make a t-shirt for the gift shop. And I also love a good pun. So, because the town also has a little, has that quirky side to it, I was like, well, let me see if I can get away with this. And so, the shirt said, “Oh Ship” on the front, and it had a little tagline about, you know, “Shipbuilding Happens” in, you know, Milton, Delaware. I can’t remember exactly what the back said. And I was like, oh, this is right on the line.
Abby: Did they sell?
Alli: Mhm.
Abby: I knew it.
Alli: Oh, my goodness. And even years later, people remember this shirt. They asked me about it. So yeah, I think I made my mark in, in some way, even if it was just this terrible pun t-shirt.
Abby: But I think one of the fun advantages of working in a small museum and running it, like you really do wear multiple hats, you really can work in, you know, the grassroots marketing or in the merchandizing and be aware of, like who is your visitor? How is it cyclical, how is it seasonal? And you can really affect change.
Brenda: But what were some of the challenges, Alli?
Alli: Oh boy.
Brenda: Some.
Alli: Well, I think always with small museums right. I think just coming in, being the only full-time staff, I had two part time staff workers. So, it was just like everything—I was on all the time. When you’re in a small museum, you can see directly the influence you have, whether it’s through an “Oh Ship” t-shirt or a new exhibit you’re doing, or just working with the community and talking to them when they come and visit the museum. So, you get really addicted to seeing the influence that you have in a positive way. And that means that you end up taking on more and more and more. And I think I just got to a point, after two years that I realized I was burnt out and that, you know, being a director was very interesting and a really great learning experience.
But I realized there were areas I liked and areas that I didn’t like. So, to transition out of that is an interesting thing because people are like, well, you hit the top, you know, where do you go from there? And a lot of people say, oh, you’re kind of downgrading. But for me, because I don’t have an ego about those kinds of things, it was just more important that I set up my career pathway and my story. And I realized that out of this, the things I really liked were programing and education. You know that you really don’t like the administrative side.
And also, some of the other challenges, such as like with HR. When you’re a small museum, a lot of times you don’t have an HR department, and when something actually happens—I won’t get into the details—when something actually happens to you, and pretty much the only HR department that you have potentially at a small museum is your board, that gets really tough. And so, there were a couple situations I had to navigate where I was like, I can’t really rely on my board just because of the nature of the thing. So, how do you do it?
And one of them, I had to actually involve a stakeholder in the community because I had to think really creatively. I was like, how do I, how do I bring someone else in with influence that can help with this situation? But I can’t rely on the organization to kind of help, help figure this out.
Brenda: You certainly were very nimble, though, in terms of how you, I mean, the idea of bringing in an outside stakeholder and figuring out how to do that in a way that was safe. I’m just really personally very inspired by your thinking and how you were able to pivot and sort of you know, address just how to address things like this where there’s no, like, answer.
Abby: And I think that’s good advice for anybody in a situation, right? When there’s one against many and you feel either you’re not getting heard or your point across or something’s unfair, bringing in, you know, a third party, a mediator, somebody who can offer a fresh perspective often helps to solve the issue in some way, shape or form. But it seems to me that wherever you go, whatever organization you join, you really are trying to elevate them and make them successful. And so, you’ve brought to the community a number of different things. Can you talk about some of your programs?
Alli: Well, yeah, partnerships I think are one of my favorite things. You’re centered somewhere in a community, and I don’t ever feel like I’m in competition with another organization. I feel like we’re both kind of fighting the same fight. And I guess one of the best examples of that was I was working at another small museum that had historic houses, and one historic house was kind of located a little further away from kind of the main campus of where things were. And I really wanted to highlight that building. It was very cool, was an 18th century tavern, and I always go to different museum programs and kind of get inspired.
So, I will give a shout out to The Franklin Institute’s Science After Hours. I had gone and the whole museum was open, and people could kind of explore around, and they had different themes each night that you went. And there were different stations, and it was really interactive and fun. And I was like, well, what if I superimpose that kind of idea on to this historic tavern? And one of the big features that I kind of picked up on and that people were always drawn to, was just exploring the house. Let them at their own pace, explore the house, and then each room has something interactive.
So, whether it’s someone from the community doing a presentation or they’re writing with a, you know, a quill pen, for example, or they’re making 18th century insults with different words, and I would just come up with some of these activities, it really activated the space and made it come alive. And this event would be like sold out, I think I did this for about two and a half years.
But then the other, other side to it was the volunteer side. And so, we ended up getting this core group of volunteers that loved to help out. And I would also give them some ownership, so I send them kind of, here’s your area that you’re going to help with and here’s some information on it, but you know, you’re your own person, like take it and go with it. And so, they loved that so much that I just had this core group that would come volunteer every month. And it was just, that was probably one of my favorite things I ever kind of created.
Abby: Okay, so recently you shot into everyone’s LinkedIn channel when you posted your open letter to the American Alliance of Museums and their treatment of small museums. So, a little background to your story for our listeners.
You attended the conference this year after about a ten-year hiatus, because back then you were told a small museum meant a staff of 30 or more, which certainly wasn’t you. So now you’re back. Hopeful, optimistic, proud to represent real small museums in a panel presentation on small museums. Perfect for you. And the rooms overcrowded, so they have to set up extra seats and like super, super well attended. And the topic is important to this massive group of people because I think it’s about 85% of people in our profession work at small museums.
And now, Ali, tell us what happened.
Alli: So, I had ten years ago attended AAM as an emerging professional, I knew I had landed that director position and then yes, they had, the person at the panel had mentioned their staff size of it had to at least have been like 20 or 30 individuals. I was like that, that is not a small museum. And so there I was just kind of like, I was a little defeated in some ways because AAM—and I don’t want this, I’m just going to preface this: I don’t want this to be a bashing of AAM at all. And so, you know, you will see that for my letter, I just, it’s a call for just being proactive in general. But, you know, you kind of look to them as the thought leaders and sort of the overall kind of support system for museums in the US.
And so just to have that experience was just like really disappointing, and then going back ten years later, getting on this panel, for me, it was like correcting an error in the past of now I actually get to do that session that I was really hoping for ten years ago, but then I was just noticing and even just talking with colleagues, so the letter is kind of a, also, representation of some other just conversations, and I was like, I’m happy to be the, kind of, I’ll have the target on my back—conversations I had had with other employees, and there’s just some things that really turned us off, and to see that things just really hadn’t changed in some ways, or maybe reverted back in some ways.
And so just really wanted to call AAM and others out as to, you know, hey, we got to fix this and fix some other things, or, you know, how can we all come together? We’re a creative field, so we’re all connected to different resources. So, if it isn’t AAM, who else can do it?
Brenda: It is important to note that AAM is really the big player, certainly in the United States, you know, and we can talk about ICOM, you know, of course, as well and on an international level, by mission. But AAM is not insignificant. How is it that AAM is a mismatch currently for small museums?
Alli: So first and foremost, just small museum representation. So, if you’ve never worked at a small museum, you don’t really understand the challenges. And also, the really great things that a small museum can bring. And so, you know, just noticing that just about all of leadership and probably for a long time, I haven’t gone back and really done a full deep dive of that, have been, you know, people that come from larger museum backgrounds or even sort of, you know, higher executive positions.
So that was just kind of disappointing that there isn’t sort of a spread within the leadership there, executive leadership. And then articles as well. I know that there was someone at one point that was kind of really championing, on their staff, quite a few years ago with small museums, so they had helped create the small museum accreditation pathway, because there are just some things, like accreditation that really weren’t accessible to small museums in certain grants. Even though they’ll say it’s for anybody, there are just things set up that already are limiting.
So, some grants, some larger grants looking for like, what staff member is going to do this and this and this? And I had, even me, because I was ambitious when I was a director and I was like, I’m going to apply for an NEH grant before they had created the small museum grant and just even filling it out, I was like, I don’t think I have a chance.
I want to do it; I want to go for it. But, you know, they were like, well, what staff members getting assigned to this role and this role, I’m like, it’s just me. And then, yeah, they would have, so this person that was sort of championing small museums also I think was kind of instrumental, it’s just my take, in getting a lot of these small museum articles, because they always have the articles that they post out, which is really great resources in general.
But sometimes, a lot of times I read through them and I’m like, okay, that’s a great case study, but it doesn’t really apply to my site and that’s always what I’m looking for as a small museum person is, how can I take this information and how can I like objectively apply that to my site? And so not to simplify things, but I know that we’re like, we just got to get things done, so help us make that happen.
Abby: And what were some of those solutions then? Because I know, you know, in the open letter you lay out some of the solutions to benefit the museum community that you offered up to AAM.
Alli: Yes. So, I didn’t want to write a letter that was just, you know, being angry and upset, and I just want to preface that I did get to meet with some representatives recently at AAM, so they have started the conversation. But basically, some things that I put up, of course, very simply, just like create space for small museums to be in leadership positions and I think also there are some parts of AAM that have like paywalls or higher admission rates to attend certain things. And like even the annual conference is just, can be like inaccessible just in terms of costs, even for like emerging professionals. And of course, there’s some ways you can always kind of get around that. If you kind of volunteer or get a scholarship, not to say that they don’t give pathways to affordability, but still, just as a base level, it’s pretty expensive. And I get it. It’s a larger conference. So, places like Small Museum Association have like a way more affordable conference for me that I just have gone to every year and I get what I need out of it. But, you know, thinking just maybe they can think more creatively about some ways that things are structured.
Even for posting jobs. They have a job board and there is a fee associated with that. And so, I do career coaching stuff as well for museum professionals and for me when I see something like that, it just means that only certain jobs are going to get posted because they’re not going to post, let’s say, an entry level position or an internship necessarily. I think they did make a change from this, internship’s being posted on there, but you know, you’re not going to spend 250 bucks to post a smaller, lower-level position versus, you know, they’re going to put that money into executive directors, for example
So just some equity in there in terms of like opening it up so that, you know, there isn’t really one space for museum people to find a job, period. There isn’t one resource out there. So that really needs to change. Even just advocacy in general for funding. I think, in terms of grants and like, I just am thinking of things that are kind of like just help move the needle for museums in general, is there was a time during the pandemic where grants actually were funding operational costs and staff members and things like that versus the project aspect.
And I thought, oh, this is really great, seeing a lot of these grant makers kind of shift that during the pandemic. And then they shifted right back. So, I’m like, AAM already does these advocacy days who can kind of help talk to these grant makers and be like, this is actually what we need, and that would solve so many problems. So, for museums, if we could just have some funding for the people that work at these organizations who then could do these projects.
Abby: So, let’s do that: shout out to the, to people in the grant business. Please, please, please, please make a grant that helps support small museum staff and their operations.
Alli: Museum staff in general for any museum, you know. I think, some of these things benefit museums of all sizes.
Brenda: I had a conversation a couple of years ago with, with a very notable person in the museum world, and we were talking about the idea of small museums. And this individual very fervently said that it’s a frustration of theirs, that funding would ever go to a small museum, and that it’s the big museums that can be the change makers.
And I disagreed, disagreed at the time, and continued to disagree with that notion, and instead feel that the real change makers are going to be these smaller, nimble, we’ll go back to ships, it’s the tiny ship, and not the cruise ship that’s able to more nimbly pivot and be responsive to the times and be responsive to individuals and individual causes even. Would you agree with that?
Alli: Absolutely. I mean an example I can give, coming back to ships, right, so even just during the pandemic, I had an idea like day one when everything got shut down to do sort of an online program. And my boss was like, yeah, go for it, do it. So, I was able to get that program up and running in like a day. So just being able to pivot on a dime like that when you have this, the smaller sloops versus the larger ships really makes a difference.
And, you know, being able to just see what you need to do for that community or what you need to do in general. I think being community resources is super important, so you’ve seen a lot more museums become like voter registration sites, just even community gathering spots for lots of just different events that may or may not relate to the museum, but it’s a place that’s, you know, where people just go to gather, supporting the people in the community, not just the visitors, but the people that are working and volunteering there and supporting them, as much as you’re supporting the visitor and recognizing that the people that are probably working and volunteering there might have some ideas too and commitment to the community that you’re serving.
Brenda: Well, being that AAM stopped it’s work with small professional groups as a part of its organizational structure, in response to that, the Society for Experiential Graphic Design, SEGD, they have just started a brand-new professional practices group, that I must say has received a rousing amount of interest from the community. They have created their own professional practice group specific to museums.
They anticipate creating several, I believe, of these professional practices groups, but they have started with museums. And Alli, I don’t know if you are on board, but please do take a peek and get the small museum representation in the mix there. And I am very willing to believe that they would be very receptive to your voice and the voices of small museums being a part of that practice group.
Alli: Yeah, excellent. I think that’s just what needs to happen. And knowing that there is space for these smaller museums to have a voice is really helpful. And that’s kind of also what, in my conversation with AAM, that they’re like, you know, hey, we already did some outreach to some of these different committees and things that we have here, and they’re aware and are open to, you know, people applying. So, I think it’s, part of it is knowing that there is a space.
Abby: Yeah, well, they have new leadership, and this is exactly what they need to hear. And obviously they’re working with you, which I think is a great result. They’re listening, which is so important. So, you know, forging forward and making change is so important. So, thank you Alli so much for joining us today and shining light on small museums and their importance to local communities that they serve, and for honestly and candidly discussing the challenges of working in a small museum that staff face as you strive to thrive.
Alli: We try. Sometimes it doesn’t feel like it but—
Abby: Keep going, Alli. Keep going. Take a deep breath.
Brenda: Absolutely. You have a lot of people who are grateful for you and certainly including Abby and myself.
Abby: 100%.
Alli: Oh my gosh, I’m so humbled. Thank you so much.
Abby: And thanks to everyone who tuned in today. If you like what you heard, subscribe to more episodes of Matters of Experience, more episodes of Abby and Brenda, and wherever you listen to podcasts, make sure to leave a rating and a review and share with a friend. We’ll see you next time.
Brenda: Take good care of yourselves, everyone.
[Music]
Producer: Matters of Experience is produced by Lorem Ipsum Corp and recorded at Hangar Studios. Tune in next time for more fun discussions about experience design.
Small Museums, Big Impact with Alli Schell
Universal Design in Cultural Institutions with Beth Redmond-Jones
Beth’s career has focused on visitors—engaging them in the natural world, finding ways for them to connect, then inspiring them take that step to protect our Earth and one ocean. During the last two decades, Beth has been actively exploring how museums can more effectively serve those with unapparent disabilities especially autism, sensory processing disorder, and mental health challenges. Beth has written several articles, presented at international conferences, and spoken on podcasts about unapparent disabilities and her museum practice.
As the editor of Welcoming Museum Visitors with Unapparent Disabilities, she has been working for the last two years to gather impactful programs and exhibitions, as well as personal accounts from individuals with lived experience, to bring to light the opportunities that museums have to engage and support those with unapparent disabilities, and how museums can be community resources for well-being.
Welcoming Museum Visitors with Unapparent Disabilities
[Music]
Abby: Welcome to Matters of Experience. My name is Abigail Honor.
Brenda: Hello. Welcome. This is Brenda Cowan.
Abby: Our podcast is produced by Lorem Ipsum here in New York City and explores the creativity, innovation and psychology driving designed experiences and encounters. Hello to anybody listening for the first time, and welcome back to our regular listeners. So, today our guest is Beth Redmond-Jones, who is the VP of Exhibitions at Monterey Bay Aquarium and author of Welcoming Museum Visitors with Unapparent Disabilities.
Her career spans over 30 years, in which Beth has worked at some incredible institutions, including the San Diego Natural History Museum, Carnegie Museum of Natural History, and the Smithsonian’s National Zoo and Conservation Biology Institute. Her work focuses on engaging visitors in the natural world and inspiring them to take that step and advocate to protect our earth and ocean as they continue their journey beyond the walls of the experience.And also, Beth has been actively exploring how museums and institutions can more effectively serve people with unapparent disabilities, which I’m really interested to talk about today, Beth. So, listeners, this is going to be a real trip. Welcome, Beth, and thank you for joining the show.
Beth: Thank you for having me. I’m so excited to talk to the two of you.
Brenda: It’s such a pleasure to have you here. So, Beth, before we focus on your incredible work in design, visitor advocacy and leadership, let us know what attracted you to the industry in the first place. How does your story begin?
Beth: Well, I grew up in Cincinnati, Ohio, and if I wasn’t outside in the woods with my dog looking for snakes and frogs and building forts, I would request that my mom or my dad would take me to either the Cincinnati Zoo or the Natural History Museum. And the Natural History Museum, in particular, was really amazing in that they had—this was the old Natural History Museum, not the one in Union Terminal right now—but they had this amazing spelunking experience where you literally opened the cave door, walked in across these rocks with water flowing around it, a waterfall, and there were stalagmites and stalactites and I still don’t know which is which, but I would go through that again and again and again, and I would exit through this cave door that opened out, and my mom would be sitting there on the bench doing her knitting, and she’d look at me and she goes, “You’re going to go again.” And I’m like, “Yes, I am.” And it was just transformative because I’d never been spelunking, so that was the closest I’d ever gotten to it. But I was just so fascinated about the whole idea of transporting someone to someplace else and like, feeling this amazing connection with place.
Brenda: What was that magic moment when you were able to take your early experiences in caves and with the natural world and in the woods and chasing frogs and snakes, when were you able to then discover that you could continue that passion and that excitement in a cultural institution?
Beth: Working in a museum in my mind was that you had to have a degree in art history, which is what I ended up pursuing, but I also had a minor in biology and studio art, and then you had to work in an art museum. So, I did an internship at the Tucson Museum of Art right after college and worked on an exhibition there, well several, actually, which was really fun, but it wasn’t filling my soul. And so I, you know, went to Washington, D.C. to work at the Smithsonian because that’s what everyone does, realizing I couldn’t get a job at the Smithsonian because I didn’t have experience or credentials or anything else. And so I ended up going to grad school, and that’s where I met Kathy McLean. She is an amazing woman here in the West Coast, one of my mentors, and she really pushed forward the idea of content driving design and coming at it from a visitor experience side.
Abby: I love that. I love that. So, in terms of your work, then Beth, so the listeners can better understand what it was you were doing, you mentioned sort of more of the design or the approach strategically thinking about yourself as the visitor and what you want them to learn and understand. What were you doing? Were you curating? Were you designing for much of your early life?
Beth: My early life really started with project management and helping wrangle all the details of an exhibition project, and then looking at the content. So, what do visitors know about a subject? How do we meet them where they are and scaffold up from there? And then designing experiences based on what you want to communicate to visitors. So, really looking at what is the content and then what is the experience design that you want to create to formulate this three-dimensional space that visitors are going to walk through or wheel through or run through.
Abby: From a project management perspective then, what were some of the challenges when you approach it that way, from the visitor’s perspective?
Beth: I think the opportunity for me with, and one of the things I really learned through the project management was I was managing the evaluation and the front-end evaluation and seeing what visitors like, listening to what they’re saying, doing interviews, collating the data for the expert to then, you know, formulate the final report. And so really understanding where visitors were, that was a huge advantage for me.
Part of my brain is really, really good at details if I can be really focused. So, it was a lot of, you know, correlating like what are all the pieces that we need for this experience from the text and the translation and the objects and that kind of thing, and are they all represented in the design documents? So, it was more of a logistical place except the evaluation and being able to manage that really allowed me to understand visitors better and their different learning styles and what excited them, and what didn’t.
Brenda: Beth, one of the things that Abby and I are really curious about has to do with how it is that you think about inspiring visitors to take action. So, what are some of the ways that through your work, you are able to really activate the visitor.
Beth: Okay. Imagine an upside-down triangle. Okay. And you’re going to put two lines through it to make three equal parts, with the top part being the largest, because it’s upside down, the middle section, and then the tiny little point at the bottom. So that upper section is the experience that your visitor has at the museum. So, at the aquarium that’s 2 million visitors a year fall into that top section and they get to experience the aquarium in whatever capacity that they, they do and however they learn.
Then you draw an arrow from that top section to the middle section. That middle section I like to call connect. Somehow there is something in that experience that made them connect with the ocean. Maybe it was the otter that they saw on exhibit and then they’re standing out on the back deck, and they saw an otter playing around or, you know, in the kelp or something like that. Somehow there was some kind of connection that happened.
Then if you take an arrow from that middle section to that bottom section, that’s the action. So, a smaller portion of that 2 million are going to connect with something in the aquarium. But even a smaller percentage of people are going to take action. And it’s building that empathy that happens between the experience and connecting with it. And until you have that empathy in that connection, you’re not apt to do something about it. And that’s really based in all the conservation psychology that’s out there.
I always use the example of recycling. When recycling started in the US, middle schoolers at that time were the ones who were coming home saying, “Mom, Dad, we’ve got to start recycling because it’s my future that you’re screwing up.” And it was these group of teens that could make a connection to their future, where the adults had, like their future was now. So, it was a way of then activating that family to then take action by recycling. Does that make sense?
Brenda: It makes a tremendous amount of sense. And I also appreciate how you think about this in in a framework of empathy and relevancy and how it is that humans ultimately, if we can understand that the tiniest thing that we do in the course of a day can actually make a difference.
Abby: So, Beth, your work really has a strong root, clearly, in visitor advocacy and reaching out through the experiential, hands-on design. I know you used multimedia, but you know, in terms of that middle tier of the triangle and really connecting with people, we’ve found that as soon as people can touch and interact rather than just stand and passively, maybe just read, they really start to emotionally resonate with the content. So, can you talk to us a bit about the way that you sort of really emotionally touched the visitors?
Beth: Well, I think there—that aligns with why I am drawn more to natural history and live animals, because there are things that have existed on this planet for millions of years and may still be here or may not.
One of the things that we talk about here at the aquarium is that the animals are ambassadors, and we create the design of our exhibits to really highlight and focus on the animals. Everything is seamless from what we call back of house, so the animal habitat, to the front of house. And our text is very minimal, and the experiences outside are very minimal, unless they completely add to what you’re seeing in front of you
So, I was just recently talking with one of my designers about like, if you were talking about a, a femur bone from some animal, you want that bone in front of you and you want that label right there, so there’s a direct connection between that label and that femur bone, and not having that femur bone across the gallery.
Brenda: So, we’ve been talking about the wonderful things that you do with the aquarium to engage visitors and to spur action and to develop relevancy, and to make for a very successful visit on visitors’ terms. What I’d love to do would be to fold this into your most recent accomplishment, which is an extraordinary book that adds great depth and breadth to our profession’s work with DEAI.
I enjoyed this book immensely, and it brings into focus the needs of museum visitors with unapparent disabilities. So, let’s enter into this part of our conversation, if you would, with a definition. Is there like a medical definition of unapparent disabilities? And what do they mean within the museum profession?
Beth: When I started working on this book, actually the title that I pitched was Hidden Disabilities. And I started talking to individuals with lived experience and a couple colleagues of mine who work in the accessibility field, and then I looked at the dictionary, imagine that, and found that, you know, the term hidden is being out of sight or not readily apparent. It’s being concealed, which means someone on purpose is trying to hide what they may or may not have.
So, then I looked at invisible and invisible implies not being seen. And we all want to be seen. So, I started thinking about, well, you know, ADA uses physical and then it was like, well, I could talk about mental health, but then it’s also neurodiversity and its dementia and grief and things that don’t have a clear definition within the DSM or within the ICD that the World Health Organization puts out.
And so, I started thinking about the word apparent, and then unapparent just came to me. A lot of people have asked me why I didn’t use the term nonapparent, and non comes across as such a negative term for me, more so than unapparent does. So, I ended up going with unapparent, and when I spoke with others with lived experience, that resonated with them. So, it’s not readily seen or directly apparent, but it is still there. It’s not being hidden. It’s not invisible. Does that make sense?
Brenda: That makes a tremendous amount of sense, and I really appreciate the thoughtfulness that went into this. And I think that choosing the right language and you bringing that forth into the broader dialog within the profession is really important.
Abby: I also just wanted to add that I completely agree with Brenda, in terms of the thoughtfulness in the way that you consulted people with, let’s wonderfully adopt the unapparent disabilities that I think is perfect, and made sure that that community were comfortable with that term.
Beth: Well, I’m going to interrupt you for one second because I’m part of that community. I have depression that I’ve lived with ever since I was a teen, and my family didn’t want to talk about it, because if you don’t talk about it, it’s not there. But I struggled with it, and both of my kids have it, and my husband, my ex-husband is on the spectrum.
Abby: It’s very personal for you.
Beth: It’s very, it’s very personal. But one of the things that I will do at conferences is I will ask people to raise their hands and keep them up if they know of anyone that has anxiety, depression, ADHD, dementia, bipolar. Within 5 to 6 terms every hand in the room is up.
Abby: Oh, I’m sure.
Beth: And one of the things I say is that this is our present and this is our future. Everyone is touched by this, yet no one will talk about it. And the stigma piece makes me crazy and that’s part of the reason I wrote this book, because we need to start talking about it, and museums are such safe places to be able, for those with these challenges, to just be, get out of their own heads, find a moment of quiet or a moment of connection. Moment of mindfulness.
Abby: I love that you brought up museums as a place for that, a place for our society to be able to come and talk freely and openly about things like mental health conditions or any concerns. To be honest, I think that as museum institutions evolve and become places for our communities, that this is one of the wonderful roles I think they can play.
Beth: Most definitely. I think the United States, though, is way behind. The National Health Service in the UK is so much further ahead. And how social prescribing is becoming very commonplace within the NHS, as well as in Canada. And I think the United States needs to get with it and start really thinking about this.
Abby: I just have a quick design question about that. So, can you tell me or explain to me a few sort of examples about things that change when you’re designing for this group? Just some really good examples, so designers who are listening can, sort of have some food for thought when they’re designing their next project.
Beth: So unapparent disabilities impacts everybody in some way or another, either personally or someone that they may be with. So, I don’t think there is a thing about creating different types of labels or anything like that, but maybe really thinking intentionally about the space that you use and how to use it.
Do you have very high active zones for someone who may be a sensory seeker in the autism spectrum? But also, do you have quiet areas where someone who is a sensory avoider might be able to decompress, or someone who gets very anxious in crowds, that they can separate themselves away and have a moment to take a few deep breaths, regroup, and then move forward.
My oldest daughter used to have a service dog. She has autism and other mental health challenges, and she was a huge inspiration for this book, and just knowing some of the exhibits I go into, they’re not designed to accommodate an individual with a service dog. So how do you do that? Most museums don’t even allow service dogs, but they have to by ADA. So, I think there’s a lot of things you can intentionally think about in just creating a welcoming space for all. And that quiet space that someone who has anxiety may want to sit and decompress, it may be a perfect space for a nursing mother just to sit down and nurse her baby for a few minutes so then they can keep going and enjoy the experience. So, it really gets then to universal design. And what is good for one is really, can be beneficial for all.
Brenda: This sounds so achievable. And yet, as you pointed out, the US is struggling in some ways to really work with this audience and make necessary change that would make things accessible for all. And I’m curious, what do you think museums and cultural institutions have been missing? How is it that they’ve been falling short? What is it? Is it funding? Is it an unawareness? Is it an unwillingness? What is it that is not happening in our institutions that you think we can really impact?
Beth: I think it’s a lot of, actually, I think it’s at a societal level. It gets into the stigma piece of us not recognizing that individuals with unapparent disabilities are around us everywhere, and not being willing to take a stand to support this audience. I’m very fortunate my staff have faith in me and trust me, and those with unapparent disabilities will come to me, yet maybe not necessarily go to HR if they’re having a rough day or need a different type of headphones so they can function in a cubicle environment or something like that. I think it’s at all levels of, not just visitors that are coming to the museums, but the staff that are working there, and how do we really make everyone feel welcome and comfortable in whatever capacity that they’re engaging.
As to why, you know, other than stigma, I think a lot of places are afraid and they may lose funding, maybe, or be seen differently. I mean, I’ve actually had a couple people reach out to me since I wrote this book saying, well, you may not be hired in a museum ever again for being so vocal.
Brenda: Seriously?
Beth: Seriously.
Brenda: Oh my Gosh.
Beth: And, I was like, wow, okay, there is stigma, full and present, and these are people who have been in the field for years.
And, you know, one of the things that I was asked, I had several readers for different sections of this book, and one of them came back to me and said, in your very first chapter you state that you have depression. I’m like, yep. And like, aren’t you afraid of like putting that out there? I’m like, if me, as the editor of this and, you know, coauthor of this book cannot state that, why am I even doing this book?
So, I think there’s a huge societal piece to this that really needs to be addressed. And hopefully, as other museums and other individuals are willing to start speaking out, that we can maybe start making change.
Abby: And let me ask you a quick question then, a bit based on where you currently work, it’s obviously a very welcoming place and a place that gives you the support you need, for the book and for where you’ve worked and what is it, do you think about the aquarium and the staff because, you know, you mentioned the docents, but the environment you work in that you think makes it special and so accepting? And what are some of the nice moments in the aquarium where you feel that there’s fantastic, inclusive design and you’re proud of your achievements?
Beth: Okay. Well, first of all, accessibility is a journey. There’s not a start and an ending. It is a continuous journey. There’s one thing I always have to remind myself and the people that I’m working with, I think we could be better. You know, this is an amazing place, but the quiet spaces are very far and few. It’s a concrete building with a slate tile floor. We have to really be intentional in the way that we design future spaces. I’ve only been here for five years, and I only have one exhibition up currently, and we’re working on a second one right now where we’re really putting accessibility at the forefront of our design. So, it’s just how can we create spaces and do that?
And we’re right now on a journey. We have just started developing an accessibility roadmap here. We worked with all of our staff in putting together a shared Google Sheet, for lack of a better term, where people could put in opportunities, things that are working, not working for both staff, as well as for our volunteers, as well as our visitors. And we are slowly working through how do we parse out and make changes over the years to come, and where are the opportunities and the precedents that we can set.
In regards to designing the Into the Deep exhibition, which is my first exhibition here, when that project started, they designed a entry gallery that was filled with monitors and bioluminescent, deep sea animals. So, it was very sparkly and blinky and, not like strobe lights, but, you know, lights going on and off of the bioluminescence of these gelatinous animals in the deep sea. And I had us redesign the gallery so we could move that off the main path, because someone with sensory processing disorder or challenges could get to the beginning of that and turn around and walk away and never see all the amazing animals that are actually in the deep sea because of this one experience that was a multimedia experience.
Abby: This is incredible, right, Brenda? Like this is phenomenal.
Brenda: It’s absolutely perfect.
Beth, I wanted to ask you about when you were putting together the book. You have an impressive lineup of authors who contributed to it and brought many different perspectives, many different facets to the stone. How did you come to identify and select the authors that you did? Like, did the content specifically drive the selection of authors, or were there particular folks out there doing work that you knew was really essential and important to bring to the fore? How did you come to direct the chapters?
Beth: Well, I didn’t want this to be all about autism, but I felt that I needed to bring up autism, because that’s something that the museum field has really made strides in. But I also wanted to look for opportunities for where programs have pushed beyond just the sensory mornings or evenings, and how they’ve really integrated those of that community and how to move that forward. I really wanted to look at mental health, and that was a little bit more challenging. I knew of the mental health exhibition that Heureka had put together, so I reached out to them, and they were really willing to write about it.
But for me, I really get tired of us all patting ourselves on the back for all the great work that we’re doing, and that’s part of the reason I wanted to have lived experience voices in it. Because first and foremost, if we’re doing these programs, we need to be engaging those audiences and asking them how we can better serve them and not just make assumptions for how we can serve them and support them. So that was not difficult to find people who I knew with lived experience. So, it was really a pleasure that they were really excited to participate in. And be a part of that as well.
Brenda: Well, the range and the depth, the breadth of authors in there, it brings so much dimensionality to this subject, and one of the things that really is important to me is the range in particular, like your decision to bring in mental health. I was very surprised, honestly, at how encompassing you have been with this particular book, and I think that it is so important that you have brought this to the profession.
Beth: Well thank you.
Abby: I think we should just tell the listeners to go out there and buy the book. Damn it, get that book! It’s a must read, but I want to move now, as we’re running out of time, and I’ve got a really critical question. Technology, Beth. Blessing or curse? Blessing or curse? What do you think?
Beth: I think it depends on the situation. I think if you can tell the story with a real object or the real thing, then you should. I think it’s really determining what is the problem you’re trying to solve with technology that you can’t do without it.
I don’t know, I get very frustrated by technology sometimes because I feel like it’s just like, oh, well, let’s just throw it on a on a computer screen. I don’t know, I’m about authenticity and the real things. I mean, if you’ve ever been to the Holocaust Museum and you stand in front of an SS uniform or inside that train car, technology is never going to replace that. And whether it’s, you know, a totally faux spelunking experience, for me, that was the real thing when I was seven years old. But it was that immersive element that I wouldn’t have those same feelings or that, I don’t think that passion for nature without being in it and loving having my parents let me run around in the woods for hours with my dog and play and collect snakes.
Abby: So, Beth, this has been incredible. Thank you so much for sharing, like, sharing your fearlessness in walking the walk and talking the talk and being a real leader.
Berenda: Here, here.
Abby: Like, I wish there were more people like you who are willing to put their head up above the parapet and tell it like it is, and not worry about losing their job and what negative things going to happen to them. So, thank you for being you and having that courage.
Beth: My pleasure. I think all the formal learning organizations can help in making people feel more welcomed, regardless of abilities and disabilities, and that is to train the frontline staff and those that engage. That is where, in the book I bring up a couple examples of the way I was treated with my oldest daughter, and it was really unpleasant and, you know, oh, people with autism kill people and, you know, do you have a problem, do you need to leave?
I mean, there was some really, really some awful things, said, and I just checked it off as them not knowing and not knowing better. So, I think if we do anything else, is training our frontline staff to come with empathy and open hearts and compassion to whoever it may be and just be, how can I help? Anything that you need that we can help make your visit better today.
And I think if we can all take that one step, we’ll be much better as a society, and hopefully will open the door for the rest of the museum to then start thinking about how we can do that for our own staff and others as well.
Brenda: Wise words.
Abby: Beth, again, thank you so much and thank you to everyone who tuned in today. If you like what you heard, subscribe for more episodes of Matters of Experience wherever you listen to podcasts, and make sure to leave a rating and a review and share with a friend. We’ll see you next time.
Brenda: Take good care everyone. Thank you, Beth.
Beth: Bye. Thank you.
[Music]
Producer: Matters of Experience is produced by Lorem Ipsum Corp and recorded at Hangar Studios. Tune in next time for more fun discussions about experience design.
Beth’s career has focused on visitors—engaging them in the natural world, finding ways for them to connect, then inspiring them take that step to protect our Earth and one ocean. During the last two decades, Beth has been actively exploring how museums can more effectively serve those with unapparent disabilities especially autism, sensory processing disorder, and mental health challenges. Beth has written several articles, presented at international conferences, and spoken on podcasts about unapparent disabilities and her museum practice.
As the editor of Welcoming Museum Visitors with Unapparent Disabilities, she has been working for the last two years to gather impactful programs and exhibitions, as well as personal accounts from individuals with lived experience, to bring to light the opportunities that museums have to engage and support those with unapparent disabilities, and how museums can be community resources for well-being.
Welcoming Museum Visitors with Unapparent Disabilities
[Music]
Abby: Welcome to Matters of Experience. My name is Abigail Honor.
Brenda: Hello. Welcome. This is Brenda Cowan.
Abby: Our podcast is produced by Lorem Ipsum here in New York City and explores the creativity, innovation and psychology driving designed experiences and encounters. Hello to anybody listening for the first time, and welcome back to our regular listeners. So, today our guest is Beth Redmond-Jones, who is the VP of Exhibitions at Monterey Bay Aquarium and author of Welcoming Museum Visitors with Unapparent Disabilities.
Her career spans over 30 years, in which Beth has worked at some incredible institutions, including the San Diego Natural History Museum, Carnegie Museum of Natural History, and the Smithsonian’s National Zoo and Conservation Biology Institute. Her work focuses on engaging visitors in the natural world and inspiring them to take that step and advocate to protect our earth and ocean as they continue their journey beyond the walls of the experience.And also, Beth has been actively exploring how museums and institutions can more effectively serve people with unapparent disabilities, which I’m really interested to talk about today, Beth. So, listeners, this is going to be a real trip. Welcome, Beth, and thank you for joining the show.
Beth: Thank you for having me. I’m so excited to talk to the two of you.
Brenda: It’s such a pleasure to have you here. So, Beth, before we focus on your incredible work in design, visitor advocacy and leadership, let us know what attracted you to the industry in the first place. How does your story begin?
Beth: Well, I grew up in Cincinnati, Ohio, and if I wasn’t outside in the woods with my dog looking for snakes and frogs and building forts, I would request that my mom or my dad would take me to either the Cincinnati Zoo or the Natural History Museum. And the Natural History Museum, in particular, was really amazing in that they had—this was the old Natural History Museum, not the one in Union Terminal right now—but they had this amazing spelunking experience where you literally opened the cave door, walked in across these rocks with water flowing around it, a waterfall, and there were stalagmites and stalactites and I still don’t know which is which, but I would go through that again and again and again, and I would exit through this cave door that opened out, and my mom would be sitting there on the bench doing her knitting, and she’d look at me and she goes, “You’re going to go again.” And I’m like, “Yes, I am.” And it was just transformative because I’d never been spelunking, so that was the closest I’d ever gotten to it. But I was just so fascinated about the whole idea of transporting someone to someplace else and like, feeling this amazing connection with place.
Brenda: What was that magic moment when you were able to take your early experiences in caves and with the natural world and in the woods and chasing frogs and snakes, when were you able to then discover that you could continue that passion and that excitement in a cultural institution?
Beth: Working in a museum in my mind was that you had to have a degree in art history, which is what I ended up pursuing, but I also had a minor in biology and studio art, and then you had to work in an art museum. So, I did an internship at the Tucson Museum of Art right after college and worked on an exhibition there, well several, actually, which was really fun, but it wasn’t filling my soul. And so I, you know, went to Washington, D.C. to work at the Smithsonian because that’s what everyone does, realizing I couldn’t get a job at the Smithsonian because I didn’t have experience or credentials or anything else. And so I ended up going to grad school, and that’s where I met Kathy McLean. She is an amazing woman here in the West Coast, one of my mentors, and she really pushed forward the idea of content driving design and coming at it from a visitor experience side.
Abby: I love that. I love that. So, in terms of your work, then Beth, so the listeners can better understand what it was you were doing, you mentioned sort of more of the design or the approach strategically thinking about yourself as the visitor and what you want them to learn and understand. What were you doing? Were you curating? Were you designing for much of your early life?
Beth: My early life really started with project management and helping wrangle all the details of an exhibition project, and then looking at the content. So, what do visitors know about a subject? How do we meet them where they are and scaffold up from there? And then designing experiences based on what you want to communicate to visitors. So, really looking at what is the content and then what is the experience design that you want to create to formulate this three-dimensional space that visitors are going to walk through or wheel through or run through.
Abby: From a project management perspective then, what were some of the challenges when you approach it that way, from the visitor’s perspective?
Beth: I think the opportunity for me with, and one of the things I really learned through the project management was I was managing the evaluation and the front-end evaluation and seeing what visitors like, listening to what they’re saying, doing interviews, collating the data for the expert to then, you know, formulate the final report. And so really understanding where visitors were, that was a huge advantage for me.
Part of my brain is really, really good at details if I can be really focused. So, it was a lot of, you know, correlating like what are all the pieces that we need for this experience from the text and the translation and the objects and that kind of thing, and are they all represented in the design documents? So, it was more of a logistical place except the evaluation and being able to manage that really allowed me to understand visitors better and their different learning styles and what excited them, and what didn’t.
Brenda: Beth, one of the things that Abby and I are really curious about has to do with how it is that you think about inspiring visitors to take action. So, what are some of the ways that through your work, you are able to really activate the visitor.
Beth: Okay. Imagine an upside-down triangle. Okay. And you’re going to put two lines through it to make three equal parts, with the top part being the largest, because it’s upside down, the middle section, and then the tiny little point at the bottom. So that upper section is the experience that your visitor has at the museum. So, at the aquarium that’s 2 million visitors a year fall into that top section and they get to experience the aquarium in whatever capacity that they, they do and however they learn.
Then you draw an arrow from that top section to the middle section. That middle section I like to call connect. Somehow there is something in that experience that made them connect with the ocean. Maybe it was the otter that they saw on exhibit and then they’re standing out on the back deck, and they saw an otter playing around or, you know, in the kelp or something like that. Somehow there was some kind of connection that happened.
Then if you take an arrow from that middle section to that bottom section, that’s the action. So, a smaller portion of that 2 million are going to connect with something in the aquarium. But even a smaller percentage of people are going to take action. And it’s building that empathy that happens between the experience and connecting with it. And until you have that empathy in that connection, you’re not apt to do something about it. And that’s really based in all the conservation psychology that’s out there.
I always use the example of recycling. When recycling started in the US, middle schoolers at that time were the ones who were coming home saying, “Mom, Dad, we’ve got to start recycling because it’s my future that you’re screwing up.” And it was these group of teens that could make a connection to their future, where the adults had, like their future was now. So, it was a way of then activating that family to then take action by recycling. Does that make sense?
Brenda: It makes a tremendous amount of sense. And I also appreciate how you think about this in in a framework of empathy and relevancy and how it is that humans ultimately, if we can understand that the tiniest thing that we do in the course of a day can actually make a difference.
Abby: So, Beth, your work really has a strong root, clearly, in visitor advocacy and reaching out through the experiential, hands-on design. I know you used multimedia, but you know, in terms of that middle tier of the triangle and really connecting with people, we’ve found that as soon as people can touch and interact rather than just stand and passively, maybe just read, they really start to emotionally resonate with the content. So, can you talk to us a bit about the way that you sort of really emotionally touched the visitors?
Beth: Well, I think there—that aligns with why I am drawn more to natural history and live animals, because there are things that have existed on this planet for millions of years and may still be here or may not.
One of the things that we talk about here at the aquarium is that the animals are ambassadors, and we create the design of our exhibits to really highlight and focus on the animals. Everything is seamless from what we call back of house, so the animal habitat, to the front of house. And our text is very minimal, and the experiences outside are very minimal, unless they completely add to what you’re seeing in front of you
So, I was just recently talking with one of my designers about like, if you were talking about a, a femur bone from some animal, you want that bone in front of you and you want that label right there, so there’s a direct connection between that label and that femur bone, and not having that femur bone across the gallery.
Brenda: So, we’ve been talking about the wonderful things that you do with the aquarium to engage visitors and to spur action and to develop relevancy, and to make for a very successful visit on visitors’ terms. What I’d love to do would be to fold this into your most recent accomplishment, which is an extraordinary book that adds great depth and breadth to our profession’s work with DEAI.
I enjoyed this book immensely, and it brings into focus the needs of museum visitors with unapparent disabilities. So, let’s enter into this part of our conversation, if you would, with a definition. Is there like a medical definition of unapparent disabilities? And what do they mean within the museum profession?
Beth: When I started working on this book, actually the title that I pitched was Hidden Disabilities. And I started talking to individuals with lived experience and a couple colleagues of mine who work in the accessibility field, and then I looked at the dictionary, imagine that, and found that, you know, the term hidden is being out of sight or not readily apparent. It’s being concealed, which means someone on purpose is trying to hide what they may or may not have.
So, then I looked at invisible and invisible implies not being seen. And we all want to be seen. So, I started thinking about, well, you know, ADA uses physical and then it was like, well, I could talk about mental health, but then it’s also neurodiversity and its dementia and grief and things that don’t have a clear definition within the DSM or within the ICD that the World Health Organization puts out.
And so, I started thinking about the word apparent, and then unapparent just came to me. A lot of people have asked me why I didn’t use the term nonapparent, and non comes across as such a negative term for me, more so than unapparent does. So, I ended up going with unapparent, and when I spoke with others with lived experience, that resonated with them. So, it’s not readily seen or directly apparent, but it is still there. It’s not being hidden. It’s not invisible. Does that make sense?
Brenda: That makes a tremendous amount of sense, and I really appreciate the thoughtfulness that went into this. And I think that choosing the right language and you bringing that forth into the broader dialog within the profession is really important.
Abby: I also just wanted to add that I completely agree with Brenda, in terms of the thoughtfulness in the way that you consulted people with, let’s wonderfully adopt the unapparent disabilities that I think is perfect, and made sure that that community were comfortable with that term.
Beth: Well, I’m going to interrupt you for one second because I’m part of that community. I have depression that I’ve lived with ever since I was a teen, and my family didn’t want to talk about it, because if you don’t talk about it, it’s not there. But I struggled with it, and both of my kids have it, and my husband, my ex-husband is on the spectrum.
Abby: It’s very personal for you.
Beth: It’s very, it’s very personal. But one of the things that I will do at conferences is I will ask people to raise their hands and keep them up if they know of anyone that has anxiety, depression, ADHD, dementia, bipolar. Within 5 to 6 terms every hand in the room is up.
Abby: Oh, I’m sure.
Beth: And one of the things I say is that this is our present and this is our future. Everyone is touched by this, yet no one will talk about it. And the stigma piece makes me crazy and that’s part of the reason I wrote this book, because we need to start talking about it, and museums are such safe places to be able, for those with these challenges, to just be, get out of their own heads, find a moment of quiet or a moment of connection. Moment of mindfulness.
Abby: I love that you brought up museums as a place for that, a place for our society to be able to come and talk freely and openly about things like mental health conditions or any concerns. To be honest, I think that as museum institutions evolve and become places for our communities, that this is one of the wonderful roles I think they can play.
Beth: Most definitely. I think the United States, though, is way behind. The National Health Service in the UK is so much further ahead. And how social prescribing is becoming very commonplace within the NHS, as well as in Canada. And I think the United States needs to get with it and start really thinking about this.
Abby: I just have a quick design question about that. So, can you tell me or explain to me a few sort of examples about things that change when you’re designing for this group? Just some really good examples, so designers who are listening can, sort of have some food for thought when they’re designing their next project.
Beth: So unapparent disabilities impacts everybody in some way or another, either personally or someone that they may be with. So, I don’t think there is a thing about creating different types of labels or anything like that, but maybe really thinking intentionally about the space that you use and how to use it.
Do you have very high active zones for someone who may be a sensory seeker in the autism spectrum? But also, do you have quiet areas where someone who is a sensory avoider might be able to decompress, or someone who gets very anxious in crowds, that they can separate themselves away and have a moment to take a few deep breaths, regroup, and then move forward.
My oldest daughter used to have a service dog. She has autism and other mental health challenges, and she was a huge inspiration for this book, and just knowing some of the exhibits I go into, they’re not designed to accommodate an individual with a service dog. So how do you do that? Most museums don’t even allow service dogs, but they have to by ADA. So, I think there’s a lot of things you can intentionally think about in just creating a welcoming space for all. And that quiet space that someone who has anxiety may want to sit and decompress, it may be a perfect space for a nursing mother just to sit down and nurse her baby for a few minutes so then they can keep going and enjoy the experience. So, it really gets then to universal design. And what is good for one is really, can be beneficial for all.
Brenda: This sounds so achievable. And yet, as you pointed out, the US is struggling in some ways to really work with this audience and make necessary change that would make things accessible for all. And I’m curious, what do you think museums and cultural institutions have been missing? How is it that they’ve been falling short? What is it? Is it funding? Is it an unawareness? Is it an unwillingness? What is it that is not happening in our institutions that you think we can really impact?
Beth: I think it’s a lot of, actually, I think it’s at a societal level. It gets into the stigma piece of us not recognizing that individuals with unapparent disabilities are around us everywhere, and not being willing to take a stand to support this audience. I’m very fortunate my staff have faith in me and trust me, and those with unapparent disabilities will come to me, yet maybe not necessarily go to HR if they’re having a rough day or need a different type of headphones so they can function in a cubicle environment or something like that. I think it’s at all levels of, not just visitors that are coming to the museums, but the staff that are working there, and how do we really make everyone feel welcome and comfortable in whatever capacity that they’re engaging.
As to why, you know, other than stigma, I think a lot of places are afraid and they may lose funding, maybe, or be seen differently. I mean, I’ve actually had a couple people reach out to me since I wrote this book saying, well, you may not be hired in a museum ever again for being so vocal.
Brenda: Seriously?
Beth: Seriously.
Brenda: Oh my Gosh.
Beth: And, I was like, wow, okay, there is stigma, full and present, and these are people who have been in the field for years.
And, you know, one of the things that I was asked, I had several readers for different sections of this book, and one of them came back to me and said, in your very first chapter you state that you have depression. I’m like, yep. And like, aren’t you afraid of like putting that out there? I’m like, if me, as the editor of this and, you know, coauthor of this book cannot state that, why am I even doing this book?
So, I think there’s a huge societal piece to this that really needs to be addressed. And hopefully, as other museums and other individuals are willing to start speaking out, that we can maybe start making change.
Abby: And let me ask you a quick question then, a bit based on where you currently work, it’s obviously a very welcoming place and a place that gives you the support you need, for the book and for where you’ve worked and what is it, do you think about the aquarium and the staff because, you know, you mentioned the docents, but the environment you work in that you think makes it special and so accepting? And what are some of the nice moments in the aquarium where you feel that there’s fantastic, inclusive design and you’re proud of your achievements?
Beth: Okay. Well, first of all, accessibility is a journey. There’s not a start and an ending. It is a continuous journey. There’s one thing I always have to remind myself and the people that I’m working with, I think we could be better. You know, this is an amazing place, but the quiet spaces are very far and few. It’s a concrete building with a slate tile floor. We have to really be intentional in the way that we design future spaces. I’ve only been here for five years, and I only have one exhibition up currently, and we’re working on a second one right now where we’re really putting accessibility at the forefront of our design. So, it’s just how can we create spaces and do that?
And we’re right now on a journey. We have just started developing an accessibility roadmap here. We worked with all of our staff in putting together a shared Google Sheet, for lack of a better term, where people could put in opportunities, things that are working, not working for both staff, as well as for our volunteers, as well as our visitors. And we are slowly working through how do we parse out and make changes over the years to come, and where are the opportunities and the precedents that we can set.
In regards to designing the Into the Deep exhibition, which is my first exhibition here, when that project started, they designed a entry gallery that was filled with monitors and bioluminescent, deep sea animals. So, it was very sparkly and blinky and, not like strobe lights, but, you know, lights going on and off of the bioluminescence of these gelatinous animals in the deep sea. And I had us redesign the gallery so we could move that off the main path, because someone with sensory processing disorder or challenges could get to the beginning of that and turn around and walk away and never see all the amazing animals that are actually in the deep sea because of this one experience that was a multimedia experience.
Abby: This is incredible, right, Brenda? Like this is phenomenal.
Brenda: It’s absolutely perfect.
Beth, I wanted to ask you about when you were putting together the book. You have an impressive lineup of authors who contributed to it and brought many different perspectives, many different facets to the stone. How did you come to identify and select the authors that you did? Like, did the content specifically drive the selection of authors, or were there particular folks out there doing work that you knew was really essential and important to bring to the fore? How did you come to direct the chapters?
Beth: Well, I didn’t want this to be all about autism, but I felt that I needed to bring up autism, because that’s something that the museum field has really made strides in. But I also wanted to look for opportunities for where programs have pushed beyond just the sensory mornings or evenings, and how they’ve really integrated those of that community and how to move that forward. I really wanted to look at mental health, and that was a little bit more challenging. I knew of the mental health exhibition that Heureka had put together, so I reached out to them, and they were really willing to write about it.
But for me, I really get tired of us all patting ourselves on the back for all the great work that we’re doing, and that’s part of the reason I wanted to have lived experience voices in it. Because first and foremost, if we’re doing these programs, we need to be engaging those audiences and asking them how we can better serve them and not just make assumptions for how we can serve them and support them. So that was not difficult to find people who I knew with lived experience. So, it was really a pleasure that they were really excited to participate in. And be a part of that as well.
Brenda: Well, the range and the depth, the breadth of authors in there, it brings so much dimensionality to this subject, and one of the things that really is important to me is the range in particular, like your decision to bring in mental health. I was very surprised, honestly, at how encompassing you have been with this particular book, and I think that it is so important that you have brought this to the profession.
Beth: Well thank you.
Abby: I think we should just tell the listeners to go out there and buy the book. Damn it, get that book! It’s a must read, but I want to move now, as we’re running out of time, and I’ve got a really critical question. Technology, Beth. Blessing or curse? Blessing or curse? What do you think?
Beth: I think it depends on the situation. I think if you can tell the story with a real object or the real thing, then you should. I think it’s really determining what is the problem you’re trying to solve with technology that you can’t do without it.
I don’t know, I get very frustrated by technology sometimes because I feel like it’s just like, oh, well, let’s just throw it on a on a computer screen. I don’t know, I’m about authenticity and the real things. I mean, if you’ve ever been to the Holocaust Museum and you stand in front of an SS uniform or inside that train car, technology is never going to replace that. And whether it’s, you know, a totally faux spelunking experience, for me, that was the real thing when I was seven years old. But it was that immersive element that I wouldn’t have those same feelings or that, I don’t think that passion for nature without being in it and loving having my parents let me run around in the woods for hours with my dog and play and collect snakes.
Abby: So, Beth, this has been incredible. Thank you so much for sharing, like, sharing your fearlessness in walking the walk and talking the talk and being a real leader.
Berenda: Here, here.
Abby: Like, I wish there were more people like you who are willing to put their head up above the parapet and tell it like it is, and not worry about losing their job and what negative things going to happen to them. So, thank you for being you and having that courage.
Beth: My pleasure. I think all the formal learning organizations can help in making people feel more welcomed, regardless of abilities and disabilities, and that is to train the frontline staff and those that engage. That is where, in the book I bring up a couple examples of the way I was treated with my oldest daughter, and it was really unpleasant and, you know, oh, people with autism kill people and, you know, do you have a problem, do you need to leave?
I mean, there was some really, really some awful things, said, and I just checked it off as them not knowing and not knowing better. So, I think if we do anything else, is training our frontline staff to come with empathy and open hearts and compassion to whoever it may be and just be, how can I help? Anything that you need that we can help make your visit better today.
And I think if we can all take that one step, we’ll be much better as a society, and hopefully will open the door for the rest of the museum to then start thinking about how we can do that for our own staff and others as well.
Brenda: Wise words.
Abby: Beth, again, thank you so much and thank you to everyone who tuned in today. If you like what you heard, subscribe for more episodes of Matters of Experience wherever you listen to podcasts, and make sure to leave a rating and a review and share with a friend. We’ll see you next time.
Brenda: Take good care everyone. Thank you, Beth.
Beth: Bye. Thank you.
[Music]
Producer: Matters of Experience is produced by Lorem Ipsum Corp and recorded at Hangar Studios. Tune in next time for more fun discussions about experience design.
Universal Design in Cultural Institutions with Beth Redmond-Jones
Science Meets Storytelling with Elisabeth Ramm
Artistic Residencies | Arts · at · CERN
Fungi Cosmology: a new kingdom and its relevance for the future – Swissnex in Brazil
[Music]
Abby: Welcome to Matters of Experience, a podcast produced by Lorem Ipsum, an experience design company headquartered in New York City. Our podcast explores the creativity, innovation and psychology driving designed experiences and encounters. If you’re new, a hearty welcome. To our regular listeners, thanks for tuning in and supporting our conversation. My name is Abigail Honor.
Brenda: Hello everyone. This is Brenda Cowan.
Abby: So, Brenda, today we’re speaking with Elisabeth Ramm, who is an associate partner at ATELIER BRÜCKNER and a lecturer at various art schools in Europe, as well as the co-founder of Swiss-based ARTHINKING association. Elisabeth designs and crafts theatrical and scenographic spatial concepts for museums and brands worldwide. Leveraging a broad spectrum of strategies and techniques drawn from theater, film, exhibition, and art to translate complex narratives holistically, immersively, and artistically into physical space. Elisabeth, it sounds like we really have a lot in common.
Brenda: Yes, some kindred spirits.
Abby: So very, yes, very excited to welcome you to the show.
Elisabeth: Thank you so, so very much for having me tonight. It’s an honor. I’m in Europe. It’s 10 o’clock in the evening. Yeah.
Abby: Thank you. Thanks for staying up. But I know for you this must be normal as you work around the globe. When do you ever sleep?
Elisabeth: Actually, I try, I have to try. Well, I have to get some sleep, obviously, you know, so, I’m a mother as well, so you know how that works. So, you try to, you know, combine various different aspects in life, you know. But yeah.
Brenda: That’s actually a perfect segue into where we wanted to really begin thinking about all of the different techniques that you use, as Abby mentioned, drawn from various disciplines like theater and film. What was your experience with all of these different kinds of art forms before joining ATELIER BRÜCKNER?
Elisabeth: Actually, it was, I would say, basically through my biography. My father is a classical musician and I’d been born in the former eastern Germany part, and he was introducing me, actually, to classical music. So, I learned the violin, and then I was studying classical violin. And then, as I saw or eventually realized that I have other, well, maybe, interests, I kind of terminated this.
And then I went to Zurich. This was really a time when a digital revolution really actually happened. So I did my bachelor’s in media art and then since I always wanted to kind of stage and really well see what spatial impact also ideas and storytelling could have, I then back in the time when scenography was not really so evolved, I decided to, well, to go into theater directing.
And so, I did my masters in this one, and so I had kind of a really a broad overview. And then of course, I thought, okay, what now what to do with all of these kind of, you know, aspects? And then I discovered actually that there is something like scenography and exhibition design. And then I really found, I have to say, I found my home in this approach because it’s so interdisciplinary, there are so many things that are coming together that intersect storytelling. I mean, you know it yourself. Yeah. Content and then spatial imagery and experiences that are being laid out, are being designed. So, I think this really kind of fits me and suits me.
Abby: What was it when you were directing theater that wasn’t enough for you personally, Elisabeth? What sort of drove you into museums and exhibition design?
Elisabeth: Actually, I think it’s a different media that I could take advantage of; the different experiences that I could create. And I think most of all, that visitors in an exhibition actually choose their own way. They choose their own path. So, it’s not that you put visitors in front of a narration, and then something happens, and they have to listen to this. So, they actually, they freely explore what is coming. So there is a level of suspense, yeah, and as I said too, you can work with graphic design, you know, all kinds of, you know, media that you can take advantage of in so many different ways, only in one exhibition, and I think this kind of variety of experience creation, that was, for me, quite interesting.
Abby: We talk about storytelling—you use the word a lot on the show, Brenda, right? For me, it’s about a drama, protagonist, antagonist, what’s sort of the struggle and hopefully the positive or nuanced outcome. And how do we tell the key chapters in the story in this authentic, engaging, immersive way? And we always start, at Lorem Ipsum, we start with a story structure before designing, you know, and diving into the design aspect of it. And we like to get our guests perspective on what storytelling is for them in their work. Can you talk to us a little bit about your process? And when you say storytelling, what you mean?
Elisabeth: Yeah, that’s interesting because it means, you know, for different people, different things. And so, we kind of try to apply the idea of the dramaturgy in space also to our work. So, you know, like where is the peak point, where are the high points, so how are we kind of guiding visitors around?
But I would say storytelling is for us strongly, also comes from content. So, we would analyze what is there, yeah, so what is really the body of content or what are the messages that we want to convey, and how can we derive motives out of these kind of content clusters or however, and then from there kind of create, of course, always from the other end coming, thinking of experiences. So, you know, what is our target audience, for example, and what would they expect or also what we would like to, you know, dive into.
And of course, a storyline can be a chronology. It can be a thematic order, you know, it can follow different kind of principles, I would say. It can also be interrupted, so you can have breakouts, for example. So, let’s say before maybe things were more didactic and then suddenly you have something where you break out into something totally emotional. But we of course also then think from the end of the space. Yeah. So, what really actually tells the architecture, what is the space and the shell that we are doing this in?
Brenda: You’re describing such an incredible landscape to us right now, really giving us an idea of just how rich and full of drama and possibility your spaces are. And one of the things that Abby and I are hoping to be able to focus on with you today is your work in science, and we’re really curious to hear how do you apply these different elements of storytelling and create an exciting, designed environment that conveys science concepts?
Elisabeth: That is a very interesting question because that is, I would say, reflects a challenge that we are currently facing because we are at the moment are assigned to, well, eventually create a science center. But the target audience for this one is elementary school kids, until I would say teens or, you know, like late teens. And one thing that for us was important is to think of, okay, I mean, science is—or science museums are really kind of fostering, I would say problem solving, critical thinking, you know, engineering, you know, all these kind of natural, scientific kind of ideas.
But at the same time we were wondering, okay, we are, I think, in very special times right now. So, we are facing numerous challenges, as we all know, climate change, you know, migration, food security, energy and so on and so forth, and what kind of skill set do we want youngsters to have, to possess? What can we foster through our exhibition and what do we have?
And for us, one key aspect in this entire kind of setting was the idea of creativity. So, the ability eventually to make youngsters—acquaint them—with creative thinking, with, you know, like methods that they can, not learn but, you know, kind of experience. So, to really be able to think out of the box and to come up with ideas that eventually, hopefully, kind of shape the world or however.
Abby: That’s a big responsibility, that’s fascinating, like to actually be able to change the way that the visitor thinks in order to be able to learn about who they are and the way that they work—actually, to change their process of learning.
Brenda: And at a really particular age, too, if we’re thinking developmentally, you’ve really got such an ideal sort of age range within the course of human development to be able to really reach young people at a time when they’re formulating ideas and just starting to really understand—
Elisabeth: Exactly.
Brenda: —right, the world beyond their door.
Abby: But does that mean then, are you thinking about how, how often does one person, one of these kids come because to really affect change probably once isn’t enough. So, is there going to be—and this is early, because you haven’t concepted, I get it, but is there any thinking towards before the student comes in and then after the students left?
Elisabeth: Absolutely. I think what is really key in general is that an institution, however, wherever, is really grown and rooted within not only a community but also its location and that it grows with its visitors and with its audience. So, you know, that when you come, you know, as eventually a teen, you remember how it was when you were a kid and then, you know, eventually you would even come, you know, as an adult and remember that.
And then also, you know, mirror the experience eventually, even in a digital realm, so that you always have a connecting point and that, I mean, of course, you know, pre communication, post communication, all of this is very important. But I think really to create an institution that lasts, so, that does not only give you a one-time experience, but where you can always come and see something new or something different.
Abby: So, you just returned from the Ecsite Conference where exhibition educators, makers, designers came together to discuss all things experience, exhibitions, science, and storytelling. I know that there was an element to the conference that really struck you as important as it related to the question of whether natural phenomena need storytelling or scenography at all. This is a sort of a controversial discussion about whether, for example, natural phenomena speak for themselves or speak for itself, or if setting up a narrative interpretation is essential. So where do you fall in this discussion, Elisabeth?
Elisabeth: That was, that was very, very interesting, very interesting lecture, I have to say. There were many, many workshops in this Ecsite Conference, and this one was really, that was outstanding, because the, already kind of the announcement of the session was interesting.
So, the announcement goes like this: so, some science centers use effects like colors, signage, materials to give visual similarities for a space. But some science centers have decided to go further and implement extensive scenography in an effort to tell stories and create immersive experiences for the visitors. But does this actually have the intended effect, or is it just an expensive distraction for our visitors, which also delays our projects?
So, this is how actually they were framing it. And I thought, okay, this should be interesting. And it was really a vivid discussion about whether or not this makes sense. And they had to kind of install this or in the scenery of really a trial. And there were, I would say, people from Phaeno and from other science centers in Switzerland that would say no, they really, they stick to this, this makes sense, and this is absolutely the right approach.
And then, of course, you know, there was me like a scenographer standing up and saying, you know, my son just asked me the other day, mama, why are we actually not falling off the earth? And I thought about this question because this is such a deep and, you know, multi-layered question that really, in my opinion, requires storytelling. And in an extent, it also requires scenography to be contextualized, to be understood, because what in the end is science? Science is nature, and nature is science. But to really understand the complexity and the simplicity at the same time, yeah, of natural phenomena, I think in this case really strongly needs embedding. and there, scenography of course strongly can help. So, I was super, super, super pro-scenography of course.
Brenda: I am completely on the side of scenography and embedding phenomena within a story to gain access, and I think especially because it can enable a person to go deeper and then a little bit deeper and then a little bit deeper, you can feed people as they’re exploring in their own way. But when you have a very rich context that is built out, you know, not just visually or sensory, but also through layers of content, through emotional experience, you can really reach so many more people, I think. So, I’m with you, Elisabeth. Elisabeth, let’s talk about the history and some of the differences between STEM and STEAM, and what do they mean to you as it relates to experience design?
Elisabeth: Yeah. So, STEM, basically I believe was introduced in the 2000, early 2000 years, and STEM is science, technology, engineering and math. So, ten years later, you know, like another kind of shift of mindset appears, like a little bit of an evolution, and suddenly we find between the E and the M an A that stands for art. So, we have STEAM now and the idea is behind that—and this, of course, is a leap forward—that art, of course, has a profound impact of how we see things. So that is really a shift of perspective, and I think this shift of perspective, that leads then to this eureka moment where you think like, oh, wow, it’s not, you know, like a binary thinking, where you think, okay, it’s black or white or it’s right or wrong or it’s this or that, you know, so it’s either or and nothing third.
So, you know, to exclude eventually implicit knowledge, to exclude intuition. And I think this is exactly where this A, the art, actually comes in. And of course, you know, there are many institutions that were created, then and under the label of STEAM: the Wellcome Collection in London, and then the Ars Electronica Center in Linz, you know, there’s a fantastic children’s museum in Vienna as well, called ZOOM, that is relying totally and solely only on programing. They have a temporary exhibition. But this actually, this art approach that is brought into institutions in many different ways, yeah, some have art collections suddenly, or they invite artists to do their artistic research. They have residency programs such as the CERN in Switzerland. They have really an artist in residence program. So, it’s really kind of a cooperation. And also, the scientists take great advantage of what the artists actually are doing. So this is really an interesting approach.
And for me, one example of how this can be mind-blowing and where it actually makes a difference is of a fungus. So, there’s an art institution in Switzerland where a friend of mine was actually the co-director, and they also had an artist in residence program. And as it happens, in the Swiss National Park, there was a gigantic fungus being found in the year 2004. And it was one of the largest living organisms, and it was also very old. So, it was a thousand years old. And this very fungus, of course, leads now to, you know, a vast amount of topics and themes, you know, so this is really as a starting point to think about eventually, interconnectedness and symbiosis of, you know, like hidden networks and communication, adaptation and resilience.
So also to take this one kind of thing, you know, and, and really explore different realities to really shift perspective around this kind of idea. This, I think, for me is really a great example of how to bring in or how, what STEAM actually can do with, with thinking and with scientific, well, binary thinking between right and wrong. So really kind of bringing in a multidimensional reality.
Abby: So excited. I want to go. And it also just gets, as you talking about it, it makes me excited to want to learn and go see and understand, and the more you understand about the fungus, the more you understand about humanity, because we’re all interrelated and interconnected, and it’s just exactly where science museums should be.
Brenda: You know, I’d love to add a layer of complexity to the dialogue right now, and get back to how it is that we are addressing, through our design, through our experiences, through our science centers, the big challenges that are facing the world right now. And I’m thinking about, you know, specifically climate change as being an area of science that so many science centers are approaching.
How is it, Elisabeth, that you can bring an audience into the complexity of what our planet is facing today? Like, what kind of thinking do we need and how do we move forward? How do you instill a sense of hope, opportunity, possibility through your designed environments?
Elisabeth: Well, first of all, exactly what you said, a sense of hope and possibility? I think, you know, from a conceptual kind of a level, this is exactly where we try to, to pick young minds up, because it’s not about that they solve our problems or, you know, become, you know, have the burden of to become a game changer. So, it’s exactly this: to ignite the idea of, you know, there is something that we have to face, but as well, you know, there is an opportunity of invention. It’s a challenge, and we should tackle this challenge.
So, I can answer with a different example I just saw in the Futurium, in the Future Museum in Berlin, there was a really interesting installation, very, very large. So, you would walk into a space and there were these gigantic Neo-Natur sculptures, yeah, so they would be out of wood and they at the moment would serve as exhibition canvas or, you know, how do you say, so with objects and graphic and everything. So, they were functional, but at the same time they were very artistic and they were very space filling and very, very prominent and super immersive.
And the idea of neo-nature is something where technology, humanity or human, so the human approach, this human design approach as well as an idea of nature, so, the Anthropocene, the age of man, where we anyways, you know, shape our environment, but to kind of find new possibilities to do so. So, to create environments and shapes and shells. Parametric architecture, for example, would be another example of this. So, to really actually, within them, or intersection of technology and art and design and the human approach really create shapes and forms that are, that are different, that are very ecstatic, but also kind of, you know, blend in nature in a different way and therefore become sustainable. So, in this one to really kind of, you know, have an option and have a possible and really a creative and interesting potential to, well, to design and to create. And I think this is something that is very, that can, you can embrace this, yeah, and it makes—it’s fun and yeah.
Abby: So for some of our listeners thinking about designing spaces like you, you use light, you use sound, you use color, really to create this expansive atmospheres where landscapes of imagination can flourish and grow. What practical advice can you give some of our listeners to sort of solve problems, design these exhibits with all of these tools that you need to use? Have you got any advice, because sometimes it can be overwhelming?
Elisabeth: I honestly think coming from theater, you know, let’s say suspense or an atmosphere, an experience can be created everywhere, anywhere with, I think little means. For me, it’s always light and sound, for example. So sound is really, it’s really important. It’s quite often underestimated. And then certainly I would say also narration, a story you can create, I would say a spatial landscape only through a story. A well-told story, a good narration, a, really an audio play, you know, that is, that is eventually heard in the, in the space or whatever can already set a certain spatial atmosphere as we know, and then it becomes theatrical or it becomes immersive, because eventually you dive into the story, you see the images within your mind, you know, you fill out the space with your own imagination. So, I’m not sure if it always takes this, you know, kind of big, super, scenography kind of imagery. So, I think the story or yeah, atmospheric means or displays are very easily being achieved.
Brenda: Elisabeth, I’m an educator in exhibition and experience design, and in my work I’m highly invested in supporting emerging exhibition and experience designers, developers, leaders. How do you leverage your own talents and your own work to bolster the next generation?
Elisabeth: For me, what is interesting is to see them coming up with their ideas, with their, you know, different approaches. And then, because I see myself not really as a teacher, I see myself more as an amplifier, more as a muse. So, I try to listen, you know, very carefully of what they actually come up with. And then I try to inspire them with links with, you know, references with, yeah, and inspirational kind of ideas. And then of course, I would never, you know, hold back to revealing that there’s also a methodology. So, there is the process, yes? When I was studying theater, I remember that there, everything was a mystery, yeah? So, how do you design a storyline? How everything kind of then comes together until the very, you know, premiere and the opening night.
And of course, there is a methodology that can be learned. How far you then actually break the rules that is then the question of, you know, creativity and, you know, like, really, yeah, so first, you know, to learn the frame and then kind of to throw it away, but so I would say it’s like, it’s both, it’s always kind of letting them go and then kind of, you know, getting them back through, telling them how I actually do things, but also, you know, enjoy listening. I really enjoy listening.
Abby: So, you mentioned breaking rules. Can you give us a good example in your work when you broke the rules, which is risky and nerve wracking and I’m sure you lost some sleep about it, but you were right to break the rules, and you are happy you broke the rules? Just so our designers can understand that sometimes taking risks is a good thing.
Elisabeth: Yeah, I think what is always a critical point is when there is no reference yet. We are surrounded, as we all know, yeah, by a lot of images. Pinterest is the perfect example of this. So, the question is if we, you know, not kind of only procreate or, you know, is if there’s a constant evolution of, you know, an idea that evolves into a like slightly different idea, and then there are 20 images of the same idea, you know, and then it’s to say, okay, let’s take that idea.
So, I think whenever and this happens in every project, for everyone, I think, when the part of innovation is coming. And so, when you have an idea, but there is not a mood image that reflects this idea, so you really have to be profound and, you know, like really specific and say I, you know, and you have to explain it, you have to draw it.
So, for example, I remember, I mean, I was just partly onboard in that project, but there was a kinetic sculpture, yeah, that actually BRÜCKNER developed for the Hyundai Motorstudio. And this kinetic sculpture, which consisted of different poles that were kind of coming out of the, you know, kind of a ground installation and that were shaping different forms of different cars. And nobody really had an idea how this could work, and if it looked cool and if it was good or whatever. And then I think we just, we were very kind of consistent. So, you have to be in this kind of case or in this example, really kind of, really pulled through and to be very strong. And then of course, you need strong people that say, this is a good idea, and we believe in this.
And then finally, of course, getting through with mockup and then really doing it and really kind of, you know, yeah, and really getting us through. So, I would say the moment of when you try to do something that really has not done before, then a trust relationship with the client and with the entire team is really needed.
Abby: Yeah, and that’s when it gets really fun, right?
Brenda: Yeah. And trust is something that has come up often in our conversations. How do you approach building trust?
Elisabeth: That is a very deep and essential question, honestly. You have to be, again, listening, be very perceptive, be very open, be very adaptable. Also be resilient, you know, and show, I would say, the client because I believe in, not colleagueship, I think when you’re really approached on a project, you have to become accomplices. You know, you have to become slightly more than this. You have to understand that you really are sitting in this one boat together, and you cannot achieve something because somebody thinks they want to, you know, make the money. Yes, as well. But at the same time, I mean, I don’t go home at, you know, five in the evening or six or whenever, you know, like my profession is what I chose to be, actually my life. So I spent my life or part or times of my life, you know, like doing, concerning myself with, let’s say, you know, other people’s ideas and, you know, requirements, and so on, and to kind of let them know I’m doing this voluntarily because I want something here, I think for, for me, you know, to to get this idea across, then ultimately, in my perception, build this kind of trust. But of course, the other party, then, accordingly, of course, has to mutually commit to this idea and then also kind of, you know, float along this kind of process.
Abby: I think that’s fantastic way of describing it, when you say it’s a life, it’s not a job. And that’s exactly how I feel, Elizabeth, that it just—it’s so enjoyable, but it’s so all encompassing. You go to sleep thinking about it, you wake up thinking about it. You see things when you’re walking through an airport, you see things in the mall.
Brenda: You make a podcast about it.
Abby: Yeah, you make a podcast about it, like you’re literally consumed, and so there has to be that passion and that excitement.
Elisabeth: Absolutely.
Abby: So, thank you, Elisabeth, for chatting with us today and for representing immersive experience design around the globe and creating some truly wonderful environments at ATELIER BRÜCKNER for us all to learn and enjoy. I’m very excited to see your science center grow, so keep us updated and open its doors to those teenagers and shape those young minds.
Elisabeth: Thank you so much for having me. It was really fun. Thanks.
Abby: And thanks to everyone who tuned in today. If you like what you heard, subscribe for more episodes of Matters of Experience wherever you listen to podcasts. Make sure to leave a rating and a review and share with a friend. We’ll see you next time.
Brenda: Take care everybody.
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Producer: Matters of Experience is produced by Lorem Ipsum Corp and recorded at Hanger Studios. Tune in next time for more fun discussions about experience design.
Artistic Residencies | Arts · at · CERN
Fungi Cosmology: a new kingdom and its relevance for the future – Swissnex in Brazil
[Music]
Abby: Welcome to Matters of Experience, a podcast produced by Lorem Ipsum, an experience design company headquartered in New York City. Our podcast explores the creativity, innovation and psychology driving designed experiences and encounters. If you’re new, a hearty welcome. To our regular listeners, thanks for tuning in and supporting our conversation. My name is Abigail Honor.
Brenda: Hello everyone. This is Brenda Cowan.
Abby: So, Brenda, today we’re speaking with Elisabeth Ramm, who is an associate partner at ATELIER BRÜCKNER and a lecturer at various art schools in Europe, as well as the co-founder of Swiss-based ARTHINKING association. Elisabeth designs and crafts theatrical and scenographic spatial concepts for museums and brands worldwide. Leveraging a broad spectrum of strategies and techniques drawn from theater, film, exhibition, and art to translate complex narratives holistically, immersively, and artistically into physical space. Elisabeth, it sounds like we really have a lot in common.
Brenda: Yes, some kindred spirits.
Abby: So very, yes, very excited to welcome you to the show.
Elisabeth: Thank you so, so very much for having me tonight. It’s an honor. I’m in Europe. It’s 10 o’clock in the evening. Yeah.
Abby: Thank you. Thanks for staying up. But I know for you this must be normal as you work around the globe. When do you ever sleep?
Elisabeth: Actually, I try, I have to try. Well, I have to get some sleep, obviously, you know, so, I’m a mother as well, so you know how that works. So, you try to, you know, combine various different aspects in life, you know. But yeah.
Brenda: That’s actually a perfect segue into where we wanted to really begin thinking about all of the different techniques that you use, as Abby mentioned, drawn from various disciplines like theater and film. What was your experience with all of these different kinds of art forms before joining ATELIER BRÜCKNER?
Elisabeth: Actually, it was, I would say, basically through my biography. My father is a classical musician and I’d been born in the former eastern Germany part, and he was introducing me, actually, to classical music. So, I learned the violin, and then I was studying classical violin. And then, as I saw or eventually realized that I have other, well, maybe, interests, I kind of terminated this.
And then I went to Zurich. This was really a time when a digital revolution really actually happened. So I did my bachelor’s in media art and then since I always wanted to kind of stage and really well see what spatial impact also ideas and storytelling could have, I then back in the time when scenography was not really so evolved, I decided to, well, to go into theater directing.
And so, I did my masters in this one, and so I had kind of a really a broad overview. And then of course, I thought, okay, what now what to do with all of these kind of, you know, aspects? And then I discovered actually that there is something like scenography and exhibition design. And then I really found, I have to say, I found my home in this approach because it’s so interdisciplinary, there are so many things that are coming together that intersect storytelling. I mean, you know it yourself. Yeah. Content and then spatial imagery and experiences that are being laid out, are being designed. So, I think this really kind of fits me and suits me.
Abby: What was it when you were directing theater that wasn’t enough for you personally, Elisabeth? What sort of drove you into museums and exhibition design?
Elisabeth: Actually, I think it’s a different media that I could take advantage of; the different experiences that I could create. And I think most of all, that visitors in an exhibition actually choose their own way. They choose their own path. So, it’s not that you put visitors in front of a narration, and then something happens, and they have to listen to this. So, they actually, they freely explore what is coming. So there is a level of suspense, yeah, and as I said too, you can work with graphic design, you know, all kinds of, you know, media that you can take advantage of in so many different ways, only in one exhibition, and I think this kind of variety of experience creation, that was, for me, quite interesting.
Abby: We talk about storytelling—you use the word a lot on the show, Brenda, right? For me, it’s about a drama, protagonist, antagonist, what’s sort of the struggle and hopefully the positive or nuanced outcome. And how do we tell the key chapters in the story in this authentic, engaging, immersive way? And we always start, at Lorem Ipsum, we start with a story structure before designing, you know, and diving into the design aspect of it. And we like to get our guests perspective on what storytelling is for them in their work. Can you talk to us a little bit about your process? And when you say storytelling, what you mean?
Elisabeth: Yeah, that’s interesting because it means, you know, for different people, different things. And so, we kind of try to apply the idea of the dramaturgy in space also to our work. So, you know, like where is the peak point, where are the high points, so how are we kind of guiding visitors around?
But I would say storytelling is for us strongly, also comes from content. So, we would analyze what is there, yeah, so what is really the body of content or what are the messages that we want to convey, and how can we derive motives out of these kind of content clusters or however, and then from there kind of create, of course, always from the other end coming, thinking of experiences. So, you know, what is our target audience, for example, and what would they expect or also what we would like to, you know, dive into.
And of course, a storyline can be a chronology. It can be a thematic order, you know, it can follow different kind of principles, I would say. It can also be interrupted, so you can have breakouts, for example. So, let’s say before maybe things were more didactic and then suddenly you have something where you break out into something totally emotional. But we of course also then think from the end of the space. Yeah. So, what really actually tells the architecture, what is the space and the shell that we are doing this in?
Brenda: You’re describing such an incredible landscape to us right now, really giving us an idea of just how rich and full of drama and possibility your spaces are. And one of the things that Abby and I are hoping to be able to focus on with you today is your work in science, and we’re really curious to hear how do you apply these different elements of storytelling and create an exciting, designed environment that conveys science concepts?
Elisabeth: That is a very interesting question because that is, I would say, reflects a challenge that we are currently facing because we are at the moment are assigned to, well, eventually create a science center. But the target audience for this one is elementary school kids, until I would say teens or, you know, like late teens. And one thing that for us was important is to think of, okay, I mean, science is—or science museums are really kind of fostering, I would say problem solving, critical thinking, you know, engineering, you know, all these kind of natural, scientific kind of ideas.
But at the same time we were wondering, okay, we are, I think, in very special times right now. So, we are facing numerous challenges, as we all know, climate change, you know, migration, food security, energy and so on and so forth, and what kind of skill set do we want youngsters to have, to possess? What can we foster through our exhibition and what do we have?
And for us, one key aspect in this entire kind of setting was the idea of creativity. So, the ability eventually to make youngsters—acquaint them—with creative thinking, with, you know, like methods that they can, not learn but, you know, kind of experience. So, to really be able to think out of the box and to come up with ideas that eventually, hopefully, kind of shape the world or however.
Abby: That’s a big responsibility, that’s fascinating, like to actually be able to change the way that the visitor thinks in order to be able to learn about who they are and the way that they work—actually, to change their process of learning.
Brenda: And at a really particular age, too, if we’re thinking developmentally, you’ve really got such an ideal sort of age range within the course of human development to be able to really reach young people at a time when they’re formulating ideas and just starting to really understand—
Elisabeth: Exactly.
Brenda: —right, the world beyond their door.
Abby: But does that mean then, are you thinking about how, how often does one person, one of these kids come because to really affect change probably once isn’t enough. So, is there going to be—and this is early, because you haven’t concepted, I get it, but is there any thinking towards before the student comes in and then after the students left?
Elisabeth: Absolutely. I think what is really key in general is that an institution, however, wherever, is really grown and rooted within not only a community but also its location and that it grows with its visitors and with its audience. So, you know, that when you come, you know, as eventually a teen, you remember how it was when you were a kid and then, you know, eventually you would even come, you know, as an adult and remember that.
And then also, you know, mirror the experience eventually, even in a digital realm, so that you always have a connecting point and that, I mean, of course, you know, pre communication, post communication, all of this is very important. But I think really to create an institution that lasts, so, that does not only give you a one-time experience, but where you can always come and see something new or something different.
Abby: So, you just returned from the Ecsite Conference where exhibition educators, makers, designers came together to discuss all things experience, exhibitions, science, and storytelling. I know that there was an element to the conference that really struck you as important as it related to the question of whether natural phenomena need storytelling or scenography at all. This is a sort of a controversial discussion about whether, for example, natural phenomena speak for themselves or speak for itself, or if setting up a narrative interpretation is essential. So where do you fall in this discussion, Elisabeth?
Elisabeth: That was, that was very, very interesting, very interesting lecture, I have to say. There were many, many workshops in this Ecsite Conference, and this one was really, that was outstanding, because the, already kind of the announcement of the session was interesting.
So, the announcement goes like this: so, some science centers use effects like colors, signage, materials to give visual similarities for a space. But some science centers have decided to go further and implement extensive scenography in an effort to tell stories and create immersive experiences for the visitors. But does this actually have the intended effect, or is it just an expensive distraction for our visitors, which also delays our projects?
So, this is how actually they were framing it. And I thought, okay, this should be interesting. And it was really a vivid discussion about whether or not this makes sense. And they had to kind of install this or in the scenery of really a trial. And there were, I would say, people from Phaeno and from other science centers in Switzerland that would say no, they really, they stick to this, this makes sense, and this is absolutely the right approach.
And then, of course, you know, there was me like a scenographer standing up and saying, you know, my son just asked me the other day, mama, why are we actually not falling off the earth? And I thought about this question because this is such a deep and, you know, multi-layered question that really, in my opinion, requires storytelling. And in an extent, it also requires scenography to be contextualized, to be understood, because what in the end is science? Science is nature, and nature is science. But to really understand the complexity and the simplicity at the same time, yeah, of natural phenomena, I think in this case really strongly needs embedding. and there, scenography of course strongly can help. So, I was super, super, super pro-scenography of course.
Brenda: I am completely on the side of scenography and embedding phenomena within a story to gain access, and I think especially because it can enable a person to go deeper and then a little bit deeper and then a little bit deeper, you can feed people as they’re exploring in their own way. But when you have a very rich context that is built out, you know, not just visually or sensory, but also through layers of content, through emotional experience, you can really reach so many more people, I think. So, I’m with you, Elisabeth. Elisabeth, let’s talk about the history and some of the differences between STEM and STEAM, and what do they mean to you as it relates to experience design?
Elisabeth: Yeah. So, STEM, basically I believe was introduced in the 2000, early 2000 years, and STEM is science, technology, engineering and math. So, ten years later, you know, like another kind of shift of mindset appears, like a little bit of an evolution, and suddenly we find between the E and the M an A that stands for art. So, we have STEAM now and the idea is behind that—and this, of course, is a leap forward—that art, of course, has a profound impact of how we see things. So that is really a shift of perspective, and I think this shift of perspective, that leads then to this eureka moment where you think like, oh, wow, it’s not, you know, like a binary thinking, where you think, okay, it’s black or white or it’s right or wrong or it’s this or that, you know, so it’s either or and nothing third.
So, you know, to exclude eventually implicit knowledge, to exclude intuition. And I think this is exactly where this A, the art, actually comes in. And of course, you know, there are many institutions that were created, then and under the label of STEAM: the Wellcome Collection in London, and then the Ars Electronica Center in Linz, you know, there’s a fantastic children’s museum in Vienna as well, called ZOOM, that is relying totally and solely only on programing. They have a temporary exhibition. But this actually, this art approach that is brought into institutions in many different ways, yeah, some have art collections suddenly, or they invite artists to do their artistic research. They have residency programs such as the CERN in Switzerland. They have really an artist in residence program. So, it’s really kind of a cooperation. And also, the scientists take great advantage of what the artists actually are doing. So this is really an interesting approach.
And for me, one example of how this can be mind-blowing and where it actually makes a difference is of a fungus. So, there’s an art institution in Switzerland where a friend of mine was actually the co-director, and they also had an artist in residence program. And as it happens, in the Swiss National Park, there was a gigantic fungus being found in the year 2004. And it was one of the largest living organisms, and it was also very old. So, it was a thousand years old. And this very fungus, of course, leads now to, you know, a vast amount of topics and themes, you know, so this is really as a starting point to think about eventually, interconnectedness and symbiosis of, you know, like hidden networks and communication, adaptation and resilience.
So also to take this one kind of thing, you know, and, and really explore different realities to really shift perspective around this kind of idea. This, I think, for me is really a great example of how to bring in or how, what STEAM actually can do with, with thinking and with scientific, well, binary thinking between right and wrong. So really kind of bringing in a multidimensional reality.
Abby: So excited. I want to go. And it also just gets, as you talking about it, it makes me excited to want to learn and go see and understand, and the more you understand about the fungus, the more you understand about humanity, because we’re all interrelated and interconnected, and it’s just exactly where science museums should be.
Brenda: You know, I’d love to add a layer of complexity to the dialogue right now, and get back to how it is that we are addressing, through our design, through our experiences, through our science centers, the big challenges that are facing the world right now. And I’m thinking about, you know, specifically climate change as being an area of science that so many science centers are approaching.
How is it, Elisabeth, that you can bring an audience into the complexity of what our planet is facing today? Like, what kind of thinking do we need and how do we move forward? How do you instill a sense of hope, opportunity, possibility through your designed environments?
Elisabeth: Well, first of all, exactly what you said, a sense of hope and possibility? I think, you know, from a conceptual kind of a level, this is exactly where we try to, to pick young minds up, because it’s not about that they solve our problems or, you know, become, you know, have the burden of to become a game changer. So, it’s exactly this: to ignite the idea of, you know, there is something that we have to face, but as well, you know, there is an opportunity of invention. It’s a challenge, and we should tackle this challenge.
So, I can answer with a different example I just saw in the Futurium, in the Future Museum in Berlin, there was a really interesting installation, very, very large. So, you would walk into a space and there were these gigantic Neo-Natur sculptures, yeah, so they would be out of wood and they at the moment would serve as exhibition canvas or, you know, how do you say, so with objects and graphic and everything. So, they were functional, but at the same time they were very artistic and they were very space filling and very, very prominent and super immersive.
And the idea of neo-nature is something where technology, humanity or human, so the human approach, this human design approach as well as an idea of nature, so, the Anthropocene, the age of man, where we anyways, you know, shape our environment, but to kind of find new possibilities to do so. So, to create environments and shapes and shells. Parametric architecture, for example, would be another example of this. So, to really actually, within them, or intersection of technology and art and design and the human approach really create shapes and forms that are, that are different, that are very ecstatic, but also kind of, you know, blend in nature in a different way and therefore become sustainable. So, in this one to really kind of, you know, have an option and have a possible and really a creative and interesting potential to, well, to design and to create. And I think this is something that is very, that can, you can embrace this, yeah, and it makes—it’s fun and yeah.
Abby: So for some of our listeners thinking about designing spaces like you, you use light, you use sound, you use color, really to create this expansive atmospheres where landscapes of imagination can flourish and grow. What practical advice can you give some of our listeners to sort of solve problems, design these exhibits with all of these tools that you need to use? Have you got any advice, because sometimes it can be overwhelming?
Elisabeth: I honestly think coming from theater, you know, let’s say suspense or an atmosphere, an experience can be created everywhere, anywhere with, I think little means. For me, it’s always light and sound, for example. So sound is really, it’s really important. It’s quite often underestimated. And then certainly I would say also narration, a story you can create, I would say a spatial landscape only through a story. A well-told story, a good narration, a, really an audio play, you know, that is, that is eventually heard in the, in the space or whatever can already set a certain spatial atmosphere as we know, and then it becomes theatrical or it becomes immersive, because eventually you dive into the story, you see the images within your mind, you know, you fill out the space with your own imagination. So, I’m not sure if it always takes this, you know, kind of big, super, scenography kind of imagery. So, I think the story or yeah, atmospheric means or displays are very easily being achieved.
Brenda: Elisabeth, I’m an educator in exhibition and experience design, and in my work I’m highly invested in supporting emerging exhibition and experience designers, developers, leaders. How do you leverage your own talents and your own work to bolster the next generation?
Elisabeth: For me, what is interesting is to see them coming up with their ideas, with their, you know, different approaches. And then, because I see myself not really as a teacher, I see myself more as an amplifier, more as a muse. So, I try to listen, you know, very carefully of what they actually come up with. And then I try to inspire them with links with, you know, references with, yeah, and inspirational kind of ideas. And then of course, I would never, you know, hold back to revealing that there’s also a methodology. So, there is the process, yes? When I was studying theater, I remember that there, everything was a mystery, yeah? So, how do you design a storyline? How everything kind of then comes together until the very, you know, premiere and the opening night.
And of course, there is a methodology that can be learned. How far you then actually break the rules that is then the question of, you know, creativity and, you know, like, really, yeah, so first, you know, to learn the frame and then kind of to throw it away, but so I would say it’s like, it’s both, it’s always kind of letting them go and then kind of, you know, getting them back through, telling them how I actually do things, but also, you know, enjoy listening. I really enjoy listening.
Abby: So, you mentioned breaking rules. Can you give us a good example in your work when you broke the rules, which is risky and nerve wracking and I’m sure you lost some sleep about it, but you were right to break the rules, and you are happy you broke the rules? Just so our designers can understand that sometimes taking risks is a good thing.
Elisabeth: Yeah, I think what is always a critical point is when there is no reference yet. We are surrounded, as we all know, yeah, by a lot of images. Pinterest is the perfect example of this. So, the question is if we, you know, not kind of only procreate or, you know, is if there’s a constant evolution of, you know, an idea that evolves into a like slightly different idea, and then there are 20 images of the same idea, you know, and then it’s to say, okay, let’s take that idea.
So, I think whenever and this happens in every project, for everyone, I think, when the part of innovation is coming. And so, when you have an idea, but there is not a mood image that reflects this idea, so you really have to be profound and, you know, like really specific and say I, you know, and you have to explain it, you have to draw it.
So, for example, I remember, I mean, I was just partly onboard in that project, but there was a kinetic sculpture, yeah, that actually BRÜCKNER developed for the Hyundai Motorstudio. And this kinetic sculpture, which consisted of different poles that were kind of coming out of the, you know, kind of a ground installation and that were shaping different forms of different cars. And nobody really had an idea how this could work, and if it looked cool and if it was good or whatever. And then I think we just, we were very kind of consistent. So, you have to be in this kind of case or in this example, really kind of, really pulled through and to be very strong. And then of course, you need strong people that say, this is a good idea, and we believe in this.
And then finally, of course, getting through with mockup and then really doing it and really kind of, you know, yeah, and really getting us through. So, I would say the moment of when you try to do something that really has not done before, then a trust relationship with the client and with the entire team is really needed.
Abby: Yeah, and that’s when it gets really fun, right?
Brenda: Yeah. And trust is something that has come up often in our conversations. How do you approach building trust?
Elisabeth: That is a very deep and essential question, honestly. You have to be, again, listening, be very perceptive, be very open, be very adaptable. Also be resilient, you know, and show, I would say, the client because I believe in, not colleagueship, I think when you’re really approached on a project, you have to become accomplices. You know, you have to become slightly more than this. You have to understand that you really are sitting in this one boat together, and you cannot achieve something because somebody thinks they want to, you know, make the money. Yes, as well. But at the same time, I mean, I don’t go home at, you know, five in the evening or six or whenever, you know, like my profession is what I chose to be, actually my life. So I spent my life or part or times of my life, you know, like doing, concerning myself with, let’s say, you know, other people’s ideas and, you know, requirements, and so on, and to kind of let them know I’m doing this voluntarily because I want something here, I think for, for me, you know, to to get this idea across, then ultimately, in my perception, build this kind of trust. But of course, the other party, then, accordingly, of course, has to mutually commit to this idea and then also kind of, you know, float along this kind of process.
Abby: I think that’s fantastic way of describing it, when you say it’s a life, it’s not a job. And that’s exactly how I feel, Elizabeth, that it just—it’s so enjoyable, but it’s so all encompassing. You go to sleep thinking about it, you wake up thinking about it. You see things when you’re walking through an airport, you see things in the mall.
Brenda: You make a podcast about it.
Abby: Yeah, you make a podcast about it, like you’re literally consumed, and so there has to be that passion and that excitement.
Elisabeth: Absolutely.
Abby: So, thank you, Elisabeth, for chatting with us today and for representing immersive experience design around the globe and creating some truly wonderful environments at ATELIER BRÜCKNER for us all to learn and enjoy. I’m very excited to see your science center grow, so keep us updated and open its doors to those teenagers and shape those young minds.
Elisabeth: Thank you so much for having me. It was really fun. Thanks.
Abby: And thanks to everyone who tuned in today. If you like what you heard, subscribe for more episodes of Matters of Experience wherever you listen to podcasts. Make sure to leave a rating and a review and share with a friend. We’ll see you next time.
Brenda: Take care everybody.
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Producer: Matters of Experience is produced by Lorem Ipsum Corp and recorded at Hanger Studios. Tune in next time for more fun discussions about experience design.
Science Meets Storytelling with Elisabeth Ramm
Taste, Touch, and Tech with Emilie Baltz
Whether you’re a designer, a creative professional, or simply curious about the world of sensory design, this episode offers a wealth of insights and inspiration. Join us for an engaging conversation that celebrates the power of multi-sensory experiences and the importance of human connection in design.
As an award-winning artist, designer, author and public speaker her appearances include TEDx, DLD, PSFK Conference, Ignite Conference, Creative Mornings, TODAY Show, NBC, Wall Street Journal, D-CRIT and more. Emilie holds a Bachelors Degree in Film Studies from Vassar College and a Masters Degree in Industrial Design from Pratt Institute.
[Music]
Abby: Welcome to Matters of Experience. My name is Abigail Honor.
Brenda: Hello, this is Brenda Cowan.
Abby: This is produced by Lorem Ipsum, an experience design company headquartered in New York City. And our podcast explores the creativity, innovation and psychology driving designed experiences and encounters. Hello to anybody listening for the first time, and welcome back to our regular listeners.
So today we’d like to welcome Emilie Baltz, an immersive experience director whose work adds a sensory dimension to design, which is one of the many reasons she’s unique. But also, she’s the inventor of the word “eatstallation,” which I absolutely love. Emilie, a big welcome to the show.
Emilie: Thank you.
Brenda: Emilie, we’re going to kick things off by talking about the multi-sensory work that you create that truly fosters curiosity and wonder. And you like to say that your work fosters curiosity and wonder one lick, suck, bite and sniff at a time.
Emilie: That’s right.
Brenda: And as I’m thinking about the lick, suck, bite and sniff at a time, I get so many flickers of memories. So, I think about eating ice cream on the beach in the summertime. I’m thinking about my lilac bush in the spring. Is this the kind of response that you hope for, Emilie, in others when you create the work that you do and sort of trigger memory and affiliations? Or am I, have I just gone off the deep end here?
Emilie: I would say yes. So, I’m really interested in how our bodies experience the world and how they’re also portals for experience. And so, everything that you just described to me are examples of embodied experience. We have these nostalgic, you know, moments in our childhood of licking ice cream or being at the beach, you know, swimming in waves. And we remember all of that because of all the sensory stimulation as well as the physical engagement.
You know, I think of multi-sensory experience design also choreographically. So, nothing exists on its own. We never just see. Right? It’s always a choreography of all of our senses that comes into our body as sensation. And then through our cultural experiences, our language, we start to make meaning out of them. And emotion then introduces, you know, emotion is the meaning making state of feeling. So that’s kind of the choreographic principle, I would say, thinking about all of those senses and their relationship to each other because they’re constantly in motion, you know.
Abby: That’s incredible. So, your work is a combination of the senses, art and technology, if I was going to try and bucket it in some, some verticals, but can you let us know about your journey, sort of to what we see today? Tell us about your path.
Emilie: Sure. It is a non-linear path. I originally studied screenwriting and contemporary dance, and then I went on five years later, and I have a master’s degree in industrial design, with actually a focus on food as a material for design, because I was interested in industrial design and its relationship to human behavior. Industrial design is so heavily influenced by human psychology, you know, behavioral habits, and it really is, I think, one of the earlier foundations that lead us now into what we would call experience design as a discipline.
Brenda: I love that you’re talking about food. I love the idea that food can foster community, communication and sharing in our everyday lives. I know that’s a big part of how you approach thinking about food in your work. What does this look like in design? Like what are some of the behaviors that you see your design with food cultivating?
Emilie: I think for me, food is both medium and metaphor for experience design. I can use food as an ingredient, as a material in creating a dish, for example, or a consumer packaged good, right, so you can very easily go into product, ingredient, nutrition, all of kind of the functional benefits that we expect with our materiality of food. But you also can lean into its multi-sensory properties because food is our only multi-sensory material on earth, because when we eat, we don’t just taste. Flavor is a construct of all of our senses, and if you’ve ever plugged your nose while eating and then you release it, you realize just how dependent our sense of taste is on our sense of flavor.
And then my work also looks at all of the different kinds of rituals and behaviors that go around the experience of eating, that foster things like community, the development of mythology. Family dinners are usually the forums for sharing our history, talking about our days, inventing the future as well as, you know, even celebratory experiences, you know, state dinners, for example, are actually mediums for diplomacy, for power. Food is this universal medium that allows for all kinds of different intersections and relationships of the human experience and that feels, you know, timeless, as I said, universal. I can’t think of another material that does this.
Brenda: How do you manage the mess? That’s what I keep, I keep thinking about it—no, but seriously, how do you manage the mess of food? What comes to mind?
Emilie: You know, I worked in fine dining between undergraduate. The reason I got into industrial—
Abby: I was going to say, how did you get into the food part?
Emilie: Yeah, I worked in bars and restaurants, and I had the great luck of falling into the wave of molecular gastronomy in the early 2000s in New York City, which was led by chefs like Wylie Dufresne, Will Goldfarb, you know, these were my heroes and my mentors. And so, what I discovered within that world was the attention to detail, the kind of service design that goes into fine dining. And so, when we talk about mess, like in those places, there were no mess because we designed for no mess. We designed for the best guest experience possible.
So that kind of ballet of people in space, and also the kind of storytelling that was happening within that time, because suddenly with the introduction of chemistry into food, right—chemistry into gastronomy is what molecular gastronomy was known for—you could transform a carrot into a cloud, right? You could dive into a day at the beach at Saint Barts that my mentor Will Goldfarb famously made, right. So suddenly you had multi-sensory stories that you weren’t just looking at, someone wasn’t telling it to you, but you were feeling them. And for me, that’s a precursor also to this kind of experiential and immersive present that we have, because we don’t just tell stories anymore. We live stories now.
Abby: Yeah. What were some of the challenges? Because you’re sort of an outlier doing this. There’s other people that try to do similar stuff to you, but you for me, you’re very much singularly doing what you do at this level and with this success. So how did you get to that?
Emilie: I was, I believe in a couple of things. Number one is that I always said yes. I said yes to everything. And I also say, what if a lot. So, I like the experience of risk. I like the emotional experience of risk. I also hate it, because I’m human. But during graduate school, I had this time and place that offered, you know, a semblance of stability where I could take risks. And so, I called, I literally would call the kitchens of the chefs that I admired. And strangely, they got on the phone, and it was such a landscape of generosity. You know, I owe my career and creativity to many of these people because they were so open and they were so genuinely excited about the newness that was in the field at that time, and also so genuinely connected to human beings. Food is an empathetic and generous activity—feeding someone, right? And that inspired me.
And by saying yes, again, it opened the door into a whole network of people who had, not even a shared industry, but I would say a shared spirit. Everyone was in pursuit of invention. Everyone was in pursuit of care, you know, and wonder and imagination. And so, finding that, more even then like a discipline, finding emotional qualities that are shared for me has always been one of the great ways forward. And, you know, that continued in that spirit.
Abby: And it’s in all your work. I mean it completely shows everything you create.
Brenda: Well, I’m thinking about the sound machine at Liberty Science Center, which is honestly, it’s one of my favorite installations that I’ve encountered, truly. And, you know, I bring my graduate students to it every year as a part of our curriculum, actually. And folks, if you don’t know it, it incorporates sound, smell, memory. It is accessible and it’s social, but it’s also individual. It’s funny, it’s poignant, and it is very playful and fun. And we consider its power to engage and stimulate trans sensory relationships in so many different ways. Emilie, can I ask you to share with the listeners a little bit about this particular piece?
Emilie: Sure. The Dream Machine was originally actually created for the Panorama Music Festival, which used to happen on Randall’s Island in New York, and it was commissioned by a wonderful curator and thinker, Justin Bolognino, who ran the media agency at the time, who was really interested in bringing interactive media to festival formats, specifically how we could create experiences that would allow visitors to play music together.
And as I was thinking through it, you know, I was also reading Aldous Huxley’s Brave New World at the time. And that book, if you’re not familiar with it, looks at the future, right, it’s a piece of speculative fiction, and Huxley uniquely looks at America. And he says, oh, in America you will not be controlled by like, dictatorship, not an overt sense of power. You will be controlled by pleasure. And so, in the Brave New World, everyone is on the Soma drug, which makes them not feel anything. And so, he invents these machines for re-feeling. And one of them is the smell organ. And it plays arpeggios of thyme, lavender and pig dung. You know, insomuch as like scent is directly linked to our limbic system, which is our center of memory and emotion.
So, I brought those two ideas and came up with this notion of what would a dream of humanity be? What if we could play all of our feelings in concert, in harmony together? This organ, quote unquote, is a wheel of feeling, basic human feelings from happiness to disgust. It’s ten different stations, and you play it by pumping bicycle pumps that are connected to this like strange collage of a trombone and a French horn. And by pumping the bicycle pump, you actually pump a scent that is designed to elicit that specific emotion. So, there’s a scent of respect, for example, which is kind of like a woody scent. And it also simultaneously triggers a sound that was also algorithmically designed to elicit that emotion. And a color of light. So, it’s a multi-sensory organ.
And insomuch as that creates also natural accessibility because it’s multimodal. So, lots of different people can engage with it in lots of different kinds of learning styles. And there’s a little secret in it that I don’t know if you ever got, but if everybody actually plays all of the stations in unison, like in harmony, the sound is harmonious. But also you release an Easter egg in the middle, so this giant puff of fog comes up from the middle.
Brenda: Oh my goodness.
Abby: You heard it here.
Emilie: It’s a celebration of human—
Abby: Get to the Liberty Science Center, get that puff created. Let’s go people.
Brenda: I love it. I have not seen the puff.
Emilie: The puff can come. Hopefully if the puff is still intact, we got to go check.
Abby: Of course it is, of course it is.
Brenda: Well this exhibit is, to put it in a way that all of you listeners I know understand, it is loved. I have seen like this particular exhibit element withstand so much enthusiastic use—
Emilie: It’s enthusiastic. This is true.
Brenda: —not just from kids but from adults as well.
Abby: So, I have a question about how you come up with your ideas. Is it usually an RFP that gets sent to you? Is it something that you’ve just willed out of thin air and you’re like, oh my gosh, who’s going to pay for this? Where can I go to sell it? I’d love to sort of understand more of what this looks like, sort of how you brainstorm, how you get work.
Emilie: It’s both, you know, over the course of the last 25 years, I’ve been able to come up with my own ideas, often very late at night.
Abby: So, you don’t get up early in the morning then, you’re a night owl.
Emilie: Well, I have a six-year-old, I get up at all times.
Brenda: You are ever present, ever ready.
Emilie: I’m ever present, ever ready. But he is a great source of inspiration for these things too, you know. Yeah. There are times where just like, I think, any artist, there’s an itch that you just have to scratch and an idea, you know, flows. And then due to the fact that I have a unique specialty and that I also really love human beings—I want to also say that in general, as a practitioner to other practitioners is like, the human relationship side of it for me is the real joy of making work.
And so, I get a lot of RFPs. You know, I also, presently I work as the Creative Director for Digital Experience at Gensler. So, I have just an influx of all sorts of different kinds of parts of the industry, of parts of the world that are fascinating, you know, so there’s some strategy that I will say that I’m interested in, like I’m interested in certain sectors, and I actively will go and, you know, meet people there as well. But a lot of it is also because of my own natural belief in this kind of experience design. I think that that becomes something that feels for me, it’s authentic, you know.
Abby: Yeah.
Emilie: And I think for anybody who has landed on that, you usually start to attract also other people who are interested in that.
Abby: Yeah. It feels very like you are your work.
Brenda: Well and generosity, to use the word that you’ve brought up a couple of times now, I think is really, really key. What’s really exciting to hear is that you’re generous as a person and generous as a thinker, and the work that you create is likewise very generous. Your ability to craft experiences where other people get to share with others, it’s inspiring, and it just makes a tremendous amount of sense, because, and quite literally, when you’re engaging with the senses, you are in so many ways automatically able, I think, to connect with other people. Right? Our senses can transcend language.
Emilie: Yeah, exactly. So, you know, I grew up in a bi cultural household, so we spoke two languages.
Abby: Oh, which ones?
Emilie: French and English. My mom is French. My father was American. That’s a primary experience for me is that the times also that we were together were language less. And often those were actually around meals as we would go, you know, we’d go to France and see my family there or they would sometimes mix. And nobody spoke each other’s language except for my brother and I.
But—and my mother, too. But those kinds of universal experiences that are fundamentally human, they’re primary rituals and experiences, it starts to stitch the fabric of our world together. I am a reductionist. I need to go to the simplest thing possible too, and I also, in my own way, am constantly looking to make meaning as one of the activities of my life.
I also am really firmly grounded in the absurd. Like many days, I don’t think that the world makes very much sense. So, so it is up to us, especially as creative people, to give meaning to it. Because through that act of meaning making, we start to give purpose to life, you know? And as maybe another general truism, I think that our human relationships, for me, I know they’ve always given me huge amounts of value and meaning and usually spaces that are most meaningful are moments of dancing with someone that you love, or breaking bread with a stranger and getting to know them. You know, maybe that sounds a little cliched and utopian in 2024, but—
Brenda: No.
Abby: No, it sounds like going back to basics, to be honest, which is, I think what we all maybe need to just sort of take a break and remember what makes us human and what makes us connect with each other.
Brenda: Abby and I, we were just discussing the fact that I just came back from a mini vacation, which was so good, and so, so overdue. And you’re making me remember probably the singular most meaningful experience that I had, which was in Paris, where one of my best friends in the whole world has just relocated, and I had dinner with two very dear friends of hers whose English is not so great.
So, there wasn’t a whole lot of verbal communication, and one person was an artist, and his wife is a botanist. And the four of us, my friend and I, we sat together, and we had a meal together, and it was pasta and bread and red wine and very little dialogue, and one of the most special moments I’ve had in, I don’t know how long. I feel like I know these people inside and out, and so very little of it was about verbal communication, and so much of it was about literally the sharing of the food, and the cooking together.
Emilie: Yeah, yeah.
Brenda: How—it’s simplicity.
Emilie: It’s incredibly simple, you know, and I think that, who is it, Mary Oliver would call that the soft animal. And we need those moments, you know, our entire life—we are no longer primitive beings, but there is a balance in our experiences going through our daily life, going through highly mechanized industrial civilizations now, you know, where we have to go back to that, we have to make time for it. And I even think about what are the learnings from that cooking together, being together that could show up in spaces like museums. Also, when we think about the transformation of these kinds of cultural spaces, there’s a real hunger, you know, pun intended there, for that kind of language less engagement with each other.
Abby: One hundred percent.
Emilie: And that buzzword of like it has to be human, quote unquote, you know, everyone is talking about that right now. It has to be immersive. I like to look a little bit more deeply at that and more practically of, well, what does that mean. To go back to that statement before, you know, there’s nothing more immersive, actually, than dancing with someone that you love. Immersion does not need to be a spectacle. It can be about present tense. It can be about connection; it can be about intimacy. But I think it’s a, it’s an active experience. It’s an embodied experience. It’s engagement. We’re doing something with our bodies, with each other in time and space.
Abby: But I think an interesting thing to think about is a lot of the experiences that we’re designing for in museums have a narrative story. There’s a lot of limitations that are put on you when you have to tell some sort of a story that people need to learn and engage with, and then it becomes a little bit more challenging to do something that could be an immersive group activity, because people have to be, I won’t say reading, but they have to be, let’s at least say learning some facts. Right? And so that I think is the challenge for what we’re doing is trying to do that balance and make sure that people are physically engaged in doing things and part of the story, whilst learning about what the story is they’re part of and moving—because we don’t have much time, we have so much to get from you.
Brenda: My goodness.
Abby: I just want to talk about technology.
Emilie: Yeah.
Abby: Technology—
Brenda: AI.
Abby: Yes. AI, so talk a little bit so that people can get and paint a picture of your work in terms of how you work with technology and how you’re thinking about working with AI, if you are, if you’re not.
Emilie: I think of technology as another ingredient, and I would use the word ingredient rather than tool because it’s an integrated part of what I do. What I find extraordinary about technology is its extra sensory property, you know. In its best use, it is magic. It reveals different possibilities, different ways of engaging with the world. I have been known to put sensors in ice cream cones and cotton candy machines to make both of them sing when you either lick or spin them. But that’s what I think of it, you know, I think of it as an ingredient. It never should be for me, the most, the dominant narrative necessarily. And I think artificial intelligence, you know, I’m, I’m curious about it. I use it, you know, I use it as image generation software. I’m most interested in its ability to show us more about ourselves.
And I think the fact that now we have an observational tool on humanity that is based on pattern recognition. That, to me, is the most interesting way that it may change our behaviors, for better and for worse, you know, and incredible cautionary tales that I also see emerging in terms of the kind of biases that are still being brought up, the lack of criticality that we have around that.
You know, there’s a host of ethics questioning privacy, etc., etc., etc. like we could spend the next two hours talking about that. But where I do find hope is more of the artistic uses presently that are really using it kind of as a black mirror and also maybe even as a rainbow mirror, you know, to show us all the different facets of ourselves and that kind of dialogue feels like a dialogic opportunity to be in dialogue with ourselves, see ourselves differently, maybe try to rewrite ourselves in new ways.
Brenda: We need to absolutely find out, what is it that you are currently passionate about? What’s coming next from your world, Emilie?
Emilie: I am so presently passionate about community building and placemaking. Those are two real needs that I personally feel, and that I also see in the world. And so how our experiences can create opportunities for more in-person experiences, for a shared sense of belonging, a feeling of togetherness and also hope.
Abby: Now I’m going to go to a dark place, because—
Emilie: The Anthropocene is nigh!
Abby: I heard you say, and I quote, “joy has little currency in the art market.” And then I just fell in love with you after that statement. So, I was like, my background is painting and art, so, why do you think that is? And what does joy bring to someone in this context or in an installation or exhibition?
Emilie: There is a certain accessibility to joy, to real joy that is about shared experience, that is about delight in everyday life, I think. And that’s just a celebration of humanity. And if there is one critical gaze that I have onto the art world is its at times incredible opacity and the gatekeeping of those feelings and of those celebrations.
And so, when I say joy is not something that is highly valued in the art world, I think it’s more of a point of entry into the kind of engagement and celebration that I think real art creates, because I’ve had totally joyful, transcendent experiences in front of some of the greatest works of art. But that’s not an explicit communication. And I think for a lot of people who come up in the art world, or even in any kind of creative industry, the idea that one can express joy, create joy, sell joy is something that often gets devalued.
Abby: I completely agree, yeah.
Emilie: And instead, it becomes a rather competitive landscape of who’s better than who, who’s cooler than who, you know? And these are statements of like 14-year-old me in high school, probably too. But, but those are, those are conversations that I think are interesting to have because it also is slightly uncomfortable.
Brenda: I keep thinking about the episode that Abby and I just recorded before you showed up, which was our 50th episode anniversary, but where we really focused on inspiration and what is inspiration and the muse. And I just keep thinking about the relationship between joy and inspiration and how they can even perhaps be swapped out and about.
Emilie: Yeah, recently had this conversation with a good friend of mine, David Schwarz, who runs HUSH Studios here in Brooklyn and I was saying, you know, I believe in joy. And he said, oh, I would call that inspiration.
Brenda: Fantastic. Yeah. So, I really, I think that they are interchangeable in many ways. And we do need inspiration. I might also even add the word delight into that and the experience of delight. I teach a studio at the School of Visual Arts called Design Delight in the Products of Design Master’s program there, and the goal of that studio—
Abby: Hold on, wait a minute. When do you have—we have these guests on, I’m like, when do you sleep? Besides being a mother, let’s just put that aside. You work at Gensler, you’re teaching, you’re making all your own—what the, what’s the secret, Emilie, to that?
Emilie: Someone once told me—they’re like, some people have 100% energy in their tank. You have 600% energy.
Abby: There you go, I believe it. I believe it.
Emilie: I have a lot of energy. It’s a gift to be alive. And I’ve always felt that quality. I’ve always really, deeply felt that it’s an honor to be here. It’s short, you know, and when you see people around you not be here anymore, you realize even how shorter it is. And when you see life in front of you like it’s a gift to have my son as a reminder of that.
So, I want to be here. I want to to play with this thing called life, and I want to enjoy it. And I want more than anything for more people to enjoy it, because it is difficult to be alive. And it’s getting more difficult, you know, as we walk around and we start to see the context that we live in, the conditions, we need experiences of life to balance it, you know?
And that’s where I think experiences of joy or delight, delight for me is the gift of paying attention. It’s to be present in this moment more than it is happy bunnies or the color pink, or anything else that we might aesthetically connect with that. For me, this is now becoming a very personal narrative, but for me that is how I try to affect the experience of my life.
How do you cope with this thing that we have to live every day in these bodies, you know, and what privilege to be here, sitting with you in New York City. You know, I don’t take that for granted. So can our work dive a little bit more deeply into that and those themes of care, those themes of generosity, you know, those are important to me, you know, and I hope that I, I try to do as best as I can in my daily life to remind myself of that.
And I’m also incredibly human and fail daily at living that, you know. So, I might sound amazing saying all this out loud, but, you know, I’m also like a person who’s grumpy and tired and, you know, sometimes doesn’t do great and all that stuff, but I feel lucky to be able to do it. And, and that’s something I want to share with the world.
Abby: Yeah. That’s called being a human.
Brenda: Well, you dive headlong right on into it.
Abby: Yeah. And this has been absolutely inspiring. You are our new muse.
Brenda: Yes, absolutely.
Abby: This is wonderful. Thank you for going deep and being really personal. I connected with the way that you’re feeling about why you do what you do. That’s, I think, exactly the same reason why I do it. We just walk this way once and you better make it a good one. So ring the life out of it, as much as you can.
Brenda: Well, it’s a big dance, isn’t it?
Emilie: It sure is.
Brenda: So, get up out of your chair.
Abby: And have a party.
Emilie: Oh my gosh, I still I still have this desire to make the church of party to just celebrate and party.
Abby: Oh, you heard it first here, we’ll invite you when it’s opening.
Emilie: You’re going to run it, okay?
Abby: I’m there. Yeah. Just don’t have me sing. Dancing’s fine, singing, no. Thank you, Emilie, so much. This has been incredible, like, you’re so courageous, and go out and invent and create things, everybody. Thanks for listening, for everybody who tuned in today. And if you like what you heard, subscribe for more episodes of Matters of Experience, wherever you listen to podcasts. Make sure to leave a rating and a review and share with a friend. We’ll see you next time.
Brenda: Be well everyone.
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Producer: Matters of Experience is produced by Lorem Ipsum Corp and recorded at Hangar Studios. Tune in next time for more fun discussions about experience design.
As an award-winning artist, designer, author and public speaker her appearances include TEDx, DLD, PSFK Conference, Ignite Conference, Creative Mornings, TODAY Show, NBC, Wall Street Journal, D-CRIT and more. Emilie holds a Bachelors Degree in Film Studies from Vassar College and a Masters Degree in Industrial Design from Pratt Institute.
[Music]
Abby: Welcome to Matters of Experience. My name is Abigail Honor.
Brenda: Hello, this is Brenda Cowan.
Abby: This is produced by Lorem Ipsum, an experience design company headquartered in New York City. And our podcast explores the creativity, innovation and psychology driving designed experiences and encounters. Hello to anybody listening for the first time, and welcome back to our regular listeners.
So today we’d like to welcome Emilie Baltz, an immersive experience director whose work adds a sensory dimension to design, which is one of the many reasons she’s unique. But also, she’s the inventor of the word “eatstallation,” which I absolutely love. Emilie, a big welcome to the show.
Emilie: Thank you.
Brenda: Emilie, we’re going to kick things off by talking about the multi-sensory work that you create that truly fosters curiosity and wonder. And you like to say that your work fosters curiosity and wonder one lick, suck, bite and sniff at a time.
Emilie: That’s right.
Brenda: And as I’m thinking about the lick, suck, bite and sniff at a time, I get so many flickers of memories. So, I think about eating ice cream on the beach in the summertime. I’m thinking about my lilac bush in the spring. Is this the kind of response that you hope for, Emilie, in others when you create the work that you do and sort of trigger memory and affiliations? Or am I, have I just gone off the deep end here?
Emilie: I would say yes. So, I’m really interested in how our bodies experience the world and how they’re also portals for experience. And so, everything that you just described to me are examples of embodied experience. We have these nostalgic, you know, moments in our childhood of licking ice cream or being at the beach, you know, swimming in waves. And we remember all of that because of all the sensory stimulation as well as the physical engagement.
You know, I think of multi-sensory experience design also choreographically. So, nothing exists on its own. We never just see. Right? It’s always a choreography of all of our senses that comes into our body as sensation. And then through our cultural experiences, our language, we start to make meaning out of them. And emotion then introduces, you know, emotion is the meaning making state of feeling. So that’s kind of the choreographic principle, I would say, thinking about all of those senses and their relationship to each other because they’re constantly in motion, you know.
Abby: That’s incredible. So, your work is a combination of the senses, art and technology, if I was going to try and bucket it in some, some verticals, but can you let us know about your journey, sort of to what we see today? Tell us about your path.
Emilie: Sure. It is a non-linear path. I originally studied screenwriting and contemporary dance, and then I went on five years later, and I have a master’s degree in industrial design, with actually a focus on food as a material for design, because I was interested in industrial design and its relationship to human behavior. Industrial design is so heavily influenced by human psychology, you know, behavioral habits, and it really is, I think, one of the earlier foundations that lead us now into what we would call experience design as a discipline.
Brenda: I love that you’re talking about food. I love the idea that food can foster community, communication and sharing in our everyday lives. I know that’s a big part of how you approach thinking about food in your work. What does this look like in design? Like what are some of the behaviors that you see your design with food cultivating?
Emilie: I think for me, food is both medium and metaphor for experience design. I can use food as an ingredient, as a material in creating a dish, for example, or a consumer packaged good, right, so you can very easily go into product, ingredient, nutrition, all of kind of the functional benefits that we expect with our materiality of food. But you also can lean into its multi-sensory properties because food is our only multi-sensory material on earth, because when we eat, we don’t just taste. Flavor is a construct of all of our senses, and if you’ve ever plugged your nose while eating and then you release it, you realize just how dependent our sense of taste is on our sense of flavor.
And then my work also looks at all of the different kinds of rituals and behaviors that go around the experience of eating, that foster things like community, the development of mythology. Family dinners are usually the forums for sharing our history, talking about our days, inventing the future as well as, you know, even celebratory experiences, you know, state dinners, for example, are actually mediums for diplomacy, for power. Food is this universal medium that allows for all kinds of different intersections and relationships of the human experience and that feels, you know, timeless, as I said, universal. I can’t think of another material that does this.
Brenda: How do you manage the mess? That’s what I keep, I keep thinking about it—no, but seriously, how do you manage the mess of food? What comes to mind?
Emilie: You know, I worked in fine dining between undergraduate. The reason I got into industrial—
Abby: I was going to say, how did you get into the food part?
Emilie: Yeah, I worked in bars and restaurants, and I had the great luck of falling into the wave of molecular gastronomy in the early 2000s in New York City, which was led by chefs like Wylie Dufresne, Will Goldfarb, you know, these were my heroes and my mentors. And so, what I discovered within that world was the attention to detail, the kind of service design that goes into fine dining. And so, when we talk about mess, like in those places, there were no mess because we designed for no mess. We designed for the best guest experience possible.
So that kind of ballet of people in space, and also the kind of storytelling that was happening within that time, because suddenly with the introduction of chemistry into food, right—chemistry into gastronomy is what molecular gastronomy was known for—you could transform a carrot into a cloud, right? You could dive into a day at the beach at Saint Barts that my mentor Will Goldfarb famously made, right. So suddenly you had multi-sensory stories that you weren’t just looking at, someone wasn’t telling it to you, but you were feeling them. And for me, that’s a precursor also to this kind of experiential and immersive present that we have, because we don’t just tell stories anymore. We live stories now.
Abby: Yeah. What were some of the challenges? Because you’re sort of an outlier doing this. There’s other people that try to do similar stuff to you, but you for me, you’re very much singularly doing what you do at this level and with this success. So how did you get to that?
Emilie: I was, I believe in a couple of things. Number one is that I always said yes. I said yes to everything. And I also say, what if a lot. So, I like the experience of risk. I like the emotional experience of risk. I also hate it, because I’m human. But during graduate school, I had this time and place that offered, you know, a semblance of stability where I could take risks. And so, I called, I literally would call the kitchens of the chefs that I admired. And strangely, they got on the phone, and it was such a landscape of generosity. You know, I owe my career and creativity to many of these people because they were so open and they were so genuinely excited about the newness that was in the field at that time, and also so genuinely connected to human beings. Food is an empathetic and generous activity—feeding someone, right? And that inspired me.
And by saying yes, again, it opened the door into a whole network of people who had, not even a shared industry, but I would say a shared spirit. Everyone was in pursuit of invention. Everyone was in pursuit of care, you know, and wonder and imagination. And so, finding that, more even then like a discipline, finding emotional qualities that are shared for me has always been one of the great ways forward. And, you know, that continued in that spirit.
Abby: And it’s in all your work. I mean it completely shows everything you create.
Brenda: Well, I’m thinking about the sound machine at Liberty Science Center, which is honestly, it’s one of my favorite installations that I’ve encountered, truly. And, you know, I bring my graduate students to it every year as a part of our curriculum, actually. And folks, if you don’t know it, it incorporates sound, smell, memory. It is accessible and it’s social, but it’s also individual. It’s funny, it’s poignant, and it is very playful and fun. And we consider its power to engage and stimulate trans sensory relationships in so many different ways. Emilie, can I ask you to share with the listeners a little bit about this particular piece?
Emilie: Sure. The Dream Machine was originally actually created for the Panorama Music Festival, which used to happen on Randall’s Island in New York, and it was commissioned by a wonderful curator and thinker, Justin Bolognino, who ran the media agency at the time, who was really interested in bringing interactive media to festival formats, specifically how we could create experiences that would allow visitors to play music together.
And as I was thinking through it, you know, I was also reading Aldous Huxley’s Brave New World at the time. And that book, if you’re not familiar with it, looks at the future, right, it’s a piece of speculative fiction, and Huxley uniquely looks at America. And he says, oh, in America you will not be controlled by like, dictatorship, not an overt sense of power. You will be controlled by pleasure. And so, in the Brave New World, everyone is on the Soma drug, which makes them not feel anything. And so, he invents these machines for re-feeling. And one of them is the smell organ. And it plays arpeggios of thyme, lavender and pig dung. You know, insomuch as like scent is directly linked to our limbic system, which is our center of memory and emotion.
So, I brought those two ideas and came up with this notion of what would a dream of humanity be? What if we could play all of our feelings in concert, in harmony together? This organ, quote unquote, is a wheel of feeling, basic human feelings from happiness to disgust. It’s ten different stations, and you play it by pumping bicycle pumps that are connected to this like strange collage of a trombone and a French horn. And by pumping the bicycle pump, you actually pump a scent that is designed to elicit that specific emotion. So, there’s a scent of respect, for example, which is kind of like a woody scent. And it also simultaneously triggers a sound that was also algorithmically designed to elicit that emotion. And a color of light. So, it’s a multi-sensory organ.
And insomuch as that creates also natural accessibility because it’s multimodal. So, lots of different people can engage with it in lots of different kinds of learning styles. And there’s a little secret in it that I don’t know if you ever got, but if everybody actually plays all of the stations in unison, like in harmony, the sound is harmonious. But also you release an Easter egg in the middle, so this giant puff of fog comes up from the middle.
Brenda: Oh my goodness.
Abby: You heard it here.
Emilie: It’s a celebration of human—
Abby: Get to the Liberty Science Center, get that puff created. Let’s go people.
Brenda: I love it. I have not seen the puff.
Emilie: The puff can come. Hopefully if the puff is still intact, we got to go check.
Abby: Of course it is, of course it is.
Brenda: Well this exhibit is, to put it in a way that all of you listeners I know understand, it is loved. I have seen like this particular exhibit element withstand so much enthusiastic use—
Emilie: It’s enthusiastic. This is true.
Brenda: —not just from kids but from adults as well.
Abby: So, I have a question about how you come up with your ideas. Is it usually an RFP that gets sent to you? Is it something that you’ve just willed out of thin air and you’re like, oh my gosh, who’s going to pay for this? Where can I go to sell it? I’d love to sort of understand more of what this looks like, sort of how you brainstorm, how you get work.
Emilie: It’s both, you know, over the course of the last 25 years, I’ve been able to come up with my own ideas, often very late at night.
Abby: So, you don’t get up early in the morning then, you’re a night owl.
Emilie: Well, I have a six-year-old, I get up at all times.
Brenda: You are ever present, ever ready.
Emilie: I’m ever present, ever ready. But he is a great source of inspiration for these things too, you know. Yeah. There are times where just like, I think, any artist, there’s an itch that you just have to scratch and an idea, you know, flows. And then due to the fact that I have a unique specialty and that I also really love human beings—I want to also say that in general, as a practitioner to other practitioners is like, the human relationship side of it for me is the real joy of making work.
And so, I get a lot of RFPs. You know, I also, presently I work as the Creative Director for Digital Experience at Gensler. So, I have just an influx of all sorts of different kinds of parts of the industry, of parts of the world that are fascinating, you know, so there’s some strategy that I will say that I’m interested in, like I’m interested in certain sectors, and I actively will go and, you know, meet people there as well. But a lot of it is also because of my own natural belief in this kind of experience design. I think that that becomes something that feels for me, it’s authentic, you know.
Abby: Yeah.
Emilie: And I think for anybody who has landed on that, you usually start to attract also other people who are interested in that.
Abby: Yeah. It feels very like you are your work.
Brenda: Well and generosity, to use the word that you’ve brought up a couple of times now, I think is really, really key. What’s really exciting to hear is that you’re generous as a person and generous as a thinker, and the work that you create is likewise very generous. Your ability to craft experiences where other people get to share with others, it’s inspiring, and it just makes a tremendous amount of sense, because, and quite literally, when you’re engaging with the senses, you are in so many ways automatically able, I think, to connect with other people. Right? Our senses can transcend language.
Emilie: Yeah, exactly. So, you know, I grew up in a bi cultural household, so we spoke two languages.
Abby: Oh, which ones?
Emilie: French and English. My mom is French. My father was American. That’s a primary experience for me is that the times also that we were together were language less. And often those were actually around meals as we would go, you know, we’d go to France and see my family there or they would sometimes mix. And nobody spoke each other’s language except for my brother and I.
But—and my mother, too. But those kinds of universal experiences that are fundamentally human, they’re primary rituals and experiences, it starts to stitch the fabric of our world together. I am a reductionist. I need to go to the simplest thing possible too, and I also, in my own way, am constantly looking to make meaning as one of the activities of my life.
I also am really firmly grounded in the absurd. Like many days, I don’t think that the world makes very much sense. So, so it is up to us, especially as creative people, to give meaning to it. Because through that act of meaning making, we start to give purpose to life, you know? And as maybe another general truism, I think that our human relationships, for me, I know they’ve always given me huge amounts of value and meaning and usually spaces that are most meaningful are moments of dancing with someone that you love, or breaking bread with a stranger and getting to know them. You know, maybe that sounds a little cliched and utopian in 2024, but—
Brenda: No.
Abby: No, it sounds like going back to basics, to be honest, which is, I think what we all maybe need to just sort of take a break and remember what makes us human and what makes us connect with each other.
Brenda: Abby and I, we were just discussing the fact that I just came back from a mini vacation, which was so good, and so, so overdue. And you’re making me remember probably the singular most meaningful experience that I had, which was in Paris, where one of my best friends in the whole world has just relocated, and I had dinner with two very dear friends of hers whose English is not so great.
So, there wasn’t a whole lot of verbal communication, and one person was an artist, and his wife is a botanist. And the four of us, my friend and I, we sat together, and we had a meal together, and it was pasta and bread and red wine and very little dialogue, and one of the most special moments I’ve had in, I don’t know how long. I feel like I know these people inside and out, and so very little of it was about verbal communication, and so much of it was about literally the sharing of the food, and the cooking together.
Emilie: Yeah, yeah.
Brenda: How—it’s simplicity.
Emilie: It’s incredibly simple, you know, and I think that, who is it, Mary Oliver would call that the soft animal. And we need those moments, you know, our entire life—we are no longer primitive beings, but there is a balance in our experiences going through our daily life, going through highly mechanized industrial civilizations now, you know, where we have to go back to that, we have to make time for it. And I even think about what are the learnings from that cooking together, being together that could show up in spaces like museums. Also, when we think about the transformation of these kinds of cultural spaces, there’s a real hunger, you know, pun intended there, for that kind of language less engagement with each other.
Abby: One hundred percent.
Emilie: And that buzzword of like it has to be human, quote unquote, you know, everyone is talking about that right now. It has to be immersive. I like to look a little bit more deeply at that and more practically of, well, what does that mean. To go back to that statement before, you know, there’s nothing more immersive, actually, than dancing with someone that you love. Immersion does not need to be a spectacle. It can be about present tense. It can be about connection; it can be about intimacy. But I think it’s a, it’s an active experience. It’s an embodied experience. It’s engagement. We’re doing something with our bodies, with each other in time and space.
Abby: But I think an interesting thing to think about is a lot of the experiences that we’re designing for in museums have a narrative story. There’s a lot of limitations that are put on you when you have to tell some sort of a story that people need to learn and engage with, and then it becomes a little bit more challenging to do something that could be an immersive group activity, because people have to be, I won’t say reading, but they have to be, let’s at least say learning some facts. Right? And so that I think is the challenge for what we’re doing is trying to do that balance and make sure that people are physically engaged in doing things and part of the story, whilst learning about what the story is they’re part of and moving—because we don’t have much time, we have so much to get from you.
Brenda: My goodness.
Abby: I just want to talk about technology.
Emilie: Yeah.
Abby: Technology—
Brenda: AI.
Abby: Yes. AI, so talk a little bit so that people can get and paint a picture of your work in terms of how you work with technology and how you’re thinking about working with AI, if you are, if you’re not.
Emilie: I think of technology as another ingredient, and I would use the word ingredient rather than tool because it’s an integrated part of what I do. What I find extraordinary about technology is its extra sensory property, you know. In its best use, it is magic. It reveals different possibilities, different ways of engaging with the world. I have been known to put sensors in ice cream cones and cotton candy machines to make both of them sing when you either lick or spin them. But that’s what I think of it, you know, I think of it as an ingredient. It never should be for me, the most, the dominant narrative necessarily. And I think artificial intelligence, you know, I’m, I’m curious about it. I use it, you know, I use it as image generation software. I’m most interested in its ability to show us more about ourselves.
And I think the fact that now we have an observational tool on humanity that is based on pattern recognition. That, to me, is the most interesting way that it may change our behaviors, for better and for worse, you know, and incredible cautionary tales that I also see emerging in terms of the kind of biases that are still being brought up, the lack of criticality that we have around that.
You know, there’s a host of ethics questioning privacy, etc., etc., etc. like we could spend the next two hours talking about that. But where I do find hope is more of the artistic uses presently that are really using it kind of as a black mirror and also maybe even as a rainbow mirror, you know, to show us all the different facets of ourselves and that kind of dialogue feels like a dialogic opportunity to be in dialogue with ourselves, see ourselves differently, maybe try to rewrite ourselves in new ways.
Brenda: We need to absolutely find out, what is it that you are currently passionate about? What’s coming next from your world, Emilie?
Emilie: I am so presently passionate about community building and placemaking. Those are two real needs that I personally feel, and that I also see in the world. And so how our experiences can create opportunities for more in-person experiences, for a shared sense of belonging, a feeling of togetherness and also hope.
Abby: Now I’m going to go to a dark place, because—
Emilie: The Anthropocene is nigh!
Abby: I heard you say, and I quote, “joy has little currency in the art market.” And then I just fell in love with you after that statement. So, I was like, my background is painting and art, so, why do you think that is? And what does joy bring to someone in this context or in an installation or exhibition?
Emilie: There is a certain accessibility to joy, to real joy that is about shared experience, that is about delight in everyday life, I think. And that’s just a celebration of humanity. And if there is one critical gaze that I have onto the art world is its at times incredible opacity and the gatekeeping of those feelings and of those celebrations.
And so, when I say joy is not something that is highly valued in the art world, I think it’s more of a point of entry into the kind of engagement and celebration that I think real art creates, because I’ve had totally joyful, transcendent experiences in front of some of the greatest works of art. But that’s not an explicit communication. And I think for a lot of people who come up in the art world, or even in any kind of creative industry, the idea that one can express joy, create joy, sell joy is something that often gets devalued.
Abby: I completely agree, yeah.
Emilie: And instead, it becomes a rather competitive landscape of who’s better than who, who’s cooler than who, you know? And these are statements of like 14-year-old me in high school, probably too. But, but those are, those are conversations that I think are interesting to have because it also is slightly uncomfortable.
Brenda: I keep thinking about the episode that Abby and I just recorded before you showed up, which was our 50th episode anniversary, but where we really focused on inspiration and what is inspiration and the muse. And I just keep thinking about the relationship between joy and inspiration and how they can even perhaps be swapped out and about.
Emilie: Yeah, recently had this conversation with a good friend of mine, David Schwarz, who runs HUSH Studios here in Brooklyn and I was saying, you know, I believe in joy. And he said, oh, I would call that inspiration.
Brenda: Fantastic. Yeah. So, I really, I think that they are interchangeable in many ways. And we do need inspiration. I might also even add the word delight into that and the experience of delight. I teach a studio at the School of Visual Arts called Design Delight in the Products of Design Master’s program there, and the goal of that studio—
Abby: Hold on, wait a minute. When do you have—we have these guests on, I’m like, when do you sleep? Besides being a mother, let’s just put that aside. You work at Gensler, you’re teaching, you’re making all your own—what the, what’s the secret, Emilie, to that?
Emilie: Someone once told me—they’re like, some people have 100% energy in their tank. You have 600% energy.
Abby: There you go, I believe it. I believe it.
Emilie: I have a lot of energy. It’s a gift to be alive. And I’ve always felt that quality. I’ve always really, deeply felt that it’s an honor to be here. It’s short, you know, and when you see people around you not be here anymore, you realize even how shorter it is. And when you see life in front of you like it’s a gift to have my son as a reminder of that.
So, I want to be here. I want to to play with this thing called life, and I want to enjoy it. And I want more than anything for more people to enjoy it, because it is difficult to be alive. And it’s getting more difficult, you know, as we walk around and we start to see the context that we live in, the conditions, we need experiences of life to balance it, you know?
And that’s where I think experiences of joy or delight, delight for me is the gift of paying attention. It’s to be present in this moment more than it is happy bunnies or the color pink, or anything else that we might aesthetically connect with that. For me, this is now becoming a very personal narrative, but for me that is how I try to affect the experience of my life.
How do you cope with this thing that we have to live every day in these bodies, you know, and what privilege to be here, sitting with you in New York City. You know, I don’t take that for granted. So can our work dive a little bit more deeply into that and those themes of care, those themes of generosity, you know, those are important to me, you know, and I hope that I, I try to do as best as I can in my daily life to remind myself of that.
And I’m also incredibly human and fail daily at living that, you know. So, I might sound amazing saying all this out loud, but, you know, I’m also like a person who’s grumpy and tired and, you know, sometimes doesn’t do great and all that stuff, but I feel lucky to be able to do it. And, and that’s something I want to share with the world.
Abby: Yeah. That’s called being a human.
Brenda: Well, you dive headlong right on into it.
Abby: Yeah. And this has been absolutely inspiring. You are our new muse.
Brenda: Yes, absolutely.
Abby: This is wonderful. Thank you for going deep and being really personal. I connected with the way that you’re feeling about why you do what you do. That’s, I think, exactly the same reason why I do it. We just walk this way once and you better make it a good one. So ring the life out of it, as much as you can.
Brenda: Well, it’s a big dance, isn’t it?
Emilie: It sure is.
Brenda: So, get up out of your chair.
Abby: And have a party.
Emilie: Oh my gosh, I still I still have this desire to make the church of party to just celebrate and party.
Abby: Oh, you heard it first here, we’ll invite you when it’s opening.
Emilie: You’re going to run it, okay?
Abby: I’m there. Yeah. Just don’t have me sing. Dancing’s fine, singing, no. Thank you, Emilie, so much. This has been incredible, like, you’re so courageous, and go out and invent and create things, everybody. Thanks for listening, for everybody who tuned in today. And if you like what you heard, subscribe for more episodes of Matters of Experience, wherever you listen to podcasts. Make sure to leave a rating and a review and share with a friend. We’ll see you next time.
Brenda: Be well everyone.
[Music]
Producer: Matters of Experience is produced by Lorem Ipsum Corp and recorded at Hangar Studios. Tune in next time for more fun discussions about experience design.
Taste, Touch, and Tech with Emilie Baltz
The Muse in Museum
Join us for a special milestone as we celebrate 50 episodes of Matters of Experience! Abby and Brenda dive into the heart of what makes our profession so unique – and celebrate the incredible guests and topics we’ve explored.
In this episode, “The Muse in Museum,” we reflect on the muses that shape our show. From the creative minds at the San Francisco Museum of Modern Art to innovative voices at the Museum of the Future, we uncover the magic behind designed experiences.
A heartfelt thank you to all our guests and supportive listeners. Your insights and stories have made this journey extraordinary. Don’t miss this special episode – listen now and celebrate with us!
Cooper Hewitt, Smithsonian Design Museum – Lorem Ipsum Corp
The Senses: Design Beyond Vision
Objects of Love, Hope and Fear
Listen to some of the episodes discussed:
[Music]
Abby: Welcome to Matters of Experience. My name is Abigail Honor.
Brenda: Hello, I’m Brenda Cowan.
Abby: This podcast is produced by Lorem Ipsum, an Experience Design company, headquartered in New York, and our podcast explores the creativity, innovation and psychology driving designed experiences and encounters. Hello to anybody listening for the first time, and a welcome back to our regular listeners. So, Brenda, today is a very special episode for us both.
Brenda: It is. A very special episode.
Abby: It is, right? It’s our 50th episode. And when I look back at the array of guests from Bosco, who works at the San Francisco Museum of Modern Art, or Sundar, from the Museum of the Future, and Victor from Intel, who talked to us about the business of connecting people to stories, and that’s just to name a few. We’ve covered multiple aspects of experiential design, from initial concept, data gathering, inclusive design, multimedia, fabrication, and AI and I feel like we’re just getting started.
Brenda: It really does, doesn’t it, feel like we’re really just starting to sort of dig into this, which is so wild, and—so what’s 50? Silver? Gold? What are we, paper? What gift am I giving?
Abby: Yeah, what gift are we getting.
Brenda: You know, listening to the sort of the range of topics and some of the folks who, who we’ve been able to speak with, I’m also thinking of some of the amazing guests that we spoke with about subjects in design, such as empathy, emotion, satisfaction, community, and storytelling. You know, so much of what we’ve talked about over these episodes is the element of the person and the personal in designed experiences, and how important it is to stay true to the people with whom we work with and for, to always seek to enable individuals to have experiences on their own terms. That’s something that I just find myself coming back to time and time again. Good design fosters and encourages this dynamic. That’s my takeaway from so many of the folks and so many of the conversations that we’ve had.
Abby: So, Brenda, you had this brilliant idea for this 50th show, our little anniversary, which is gold, by the way. I googled it very quickly.
Brenda: Oh, it’s gold, okay.
Abby: I should have known that, not that that big day isn’t coming up for me in a few years.
Brenda: Put that ring on my finger, Abby.
Abby: But we’re going to focus on the subject of inspiration, what muses do and how they form the basis of a museum. So, settle in everyone, and we’re hoping, hoping to really inspire you with the conversation today.
Brenda: Well, inspiration Abby, it’s something that I’ve been thinking about quite a lot these days, in no small part due to the fact that I just got a mini break, a vacation. I just got back from back-to-back trips to Baltimore, Santa Fe, and Paris and in each place, no matter how humble the place was or how epic, I found myself caught up in these moments that inspired me to think, act, contemplate, and just sink into moments of quietude. And sometimes it was experiences where, let’s say I saw someone or something that surprised me and that made me want to engage. Or perhaps I was touching and smelling something in nature that was sending me flying back into early memories. I was in a designed light, sound and architecture extravaganza that blew my mind—side note, stay tuned for a future episode on that one. And all along throughout these experiences, I would catch myself having this like inner dialogue, questioning what I was responding to and wanting to know more, wondering about my own reactions and in what ways I was finding things so meaningful.
Abby: I just want to jump in right now. That’s so interesting, the idea of when you have the thoughts and feelings that you don’t know necessarily why or where they’ve come from, and it can be a bit sort of befuddling and exciting as well, as you start to learn more about yourself from these experiences and then try to draw conclusions from them about who you are, where you’re going, why you had them, where you’ve been. And I totally agree, I had a similar—I was at Cannes Film Festival walking down the street and I smelled something. It must have been some succulents or passing some flowers or something, and it immediately shot me back to my village days in, in England with horses in a field, which is so bizarre from being in sort of like a cement small town to get moved there, and then all of those emotions from being about that age came flooding back.
Brenda: As I was having my moments, I started to think about muses of inspirations that prompt us to wonder and question and learn and grow. You know, the nine goddesses of Zeus.
Abby: He had nine? Wait a minute, he had nine goddesses? Oh my goodness me, lucky man.
Brenda: But I was thinking of the nine goddesses of Zeus who preside over the arts and sciences and of the museum. So, Abby, when we’re talking about the museum, we’re talking about the seat of the muses. So if you’re following me, inspiration is key to all of this. And I think that being open to it and cognizant of it is crucial for creatives and leaders and, well, everyone that’s been on the show has been speaking to inspiration in one way or another. And in a way, our show is like a museum. Our show is a seat for the muses. So taking this moment to reflect on that and to see our guests as the muses that they are to us is important to do, and an awful lot of fun for our 50th. I’ll give you all a little heads up that we’re going to give you a little exercise in just a little bit, so stick with us and prepare to play a little bit with your own inspirations.
Abby: That sounds very exciting. So, when you talk about switching off, you just mentioned switching off, and I was thinking about daydreaming and, you know, looking for inspiration by switching off, and I know that I read a lot of studies about how it actually, this idea of daydreaming will reduce stress and anxiety. So it really can help there and bring back clarity and even efficiency and problem solving. You know, it can help you through big decisions or deadlines that you know you may not have the answers to all be able to do until you sort of like, switch off. I know it sounds like an oxymoron, like, how do you get something done when you actually disengage from it? But that’s at least for me as well, the way that it works.
And the same with creativity. I’m looking forward to going on a vacation because I’m looking forward to being able to switch off. But at the same time, I’m always absorbing content, information. But when you’re in the sort of more relaxed mode, you have time to contemplate and play in your head. And I think that playing, that creativity really is, for me at least, where my inspiration comes from.
And another thing that I think about all of our peers is they all seem to be multi-talented or interested in lots of different things. They’re not one trick ponies. So you could have somebody who’s an engineer who works in AR, who’s also a musician, and you could have someone else who’s got an amazing sense of fashion or likes to paint and design.
Brenda: Well, we just had Eli Kuslansky on, who is a brilliant multimedia technical designer and also a writer, an artist and a chef.
Abby: Yup, exactly. So, I really believe that you can find inspiration in very, very different places.
Brenda: It’s interesting that it’s the advice that I give my students when they get a mini break of their own, and so many of them will come and ask me, okay, what should I work on during my break and what should I and should I be doing this? And should I be doing that? And I can, you know, bone up on these particular skills and I can be reading this and la la la la la. And the advice that I give time and time again is do nothing, do something that brings you a lot of joy, that brings you pleasure, whatever it might be, and just sink yourself into that and it will reap rewards.
Abby: I also wanted to tie the subject of this podcast, which is muses and inspiration, with how I had the inspiration to do this. Brenda, it was your work actually at FIT, from coming in and having the privilege to speak to the students, and then seeing my peers coming in, also talking from the different facets of what we do. And I felt that we were missing a podcast about everything we do. And I realized that the group you were bringing in were all from very different walks of life, and the idea of this Matters of Experience sort of popped in my head, and you as the natural partner, so I just hoped you’d say yes.
Brenda: Of course I said yes.
Abby: And you jumped straight in.
Brenda: Seriously? How could I say no? And you and I definitely have a shared mission in terms of thinking about the profession and the need for this work that we all listening are engaged in, in our own individual and joint ways. The need for this profession to be viewed and understood more and more as a profession, as a thing unto itself. And the more that we can speak, the more that we can publish, the more that we can promote what exhibition and experience design is, the more it’s going to gain, I think, in terms of awareness.
Abby: No, it’s awareness and actually role in the creation of an experience. So that our clients can understand when they need us and why they need us. And it’s a shout out to SEGD and Cybelle Jones and that incredible organization and how they support us and get the word out to the community about what we do.
Brenda: I know that the times that we’ve spoken about the need for exhibition and experience design to really have more weight as a profession unto itself comes when we talk about architecture and the role of architecture and architects, and how architecture is viewed and how very differently so—
Abby: Yes, yes it is.
Brenda: —than where we’re coming from.
Abby: Yeah, and when—it’s really interesting, one of the episodes that resonated with me was early on with the architect, Alex Bitus. He brought us sort of three key drivers for his work, which were environment, materials, and the site history, which really makes perfect sense when you think about the exterior, and I guess sort of from his perspective, interior of a new building, but how it will fit or complement the world around it and be inspired by the local landscape through the materials, you know, he’s designed, he’s built it with.
But what’s interesting from our experience design perspective is that we create these environments that often juxtapose, to be honest, against the building design from maybe a form and a function perspective, and I think it’s okay that it does that. We design and service the story. What are we trying to say? What’s the right environment for that story? So we think about guiding the visitor through the journey and often design being inspired by the setting of the story, I guess more like scenic design or film set design.
Brenda: Well, when you’re talking about immersion in the moment and in the story, let’s also include emotional involvement, engagement with other people, engagement with objects as well. And these are things that we learned a lot about from so many of the folks that we’ve spoken with: community and connection and belonging. I’m remembering one of our early episodes with the wonderful Joy Bailey-Bryant, and I’m also thinking about Annie Polland from the Tenement Museum.
These individuals brought to light such important elements of the nature of being a creative and also storytelling and the nature of experiences being about people belonging, being welcomed, being a part of the story and feeling like and knowing that they are a part of the institution in myriad ways. And I’m also thinking about emotion and empathy-rich experiences, and our conversation with Jasminko Halilovic and Elif Gokcigdem, and Terry Snowball.
These are individuals who, for me, were so inspiring because they were really sharing with us how it is that emotions and evocative objects and difficult subjects and challenging subjects are a very rich part of the fabric of what we do and our ability to be able to share these stories in very sensory-rich ways is absolutely critical, and that emotion is a key part of this immersed experience that we keep hearing about and talking about throughout all of our episodes.
Abby: Well, it’s empathetic design, and I think it’s something that, I mean, you tell me, Brenda, it seems like something that’s really coming to the forefront, like right now, over the last few years, something that we all need to bear in mind. What caused this? Where did it come from? Has it been around and I’ve just been not looking in the right places, because I feel that in all of those examples, all of those museums, they really are powerful.
Brenda: I think that thinking in empathy has to do with and we, when we talked with Elif Gokcigdem, she spoke a lot about designing for empathy, which is really the focus of her life’s work, really. And she was talking about how understanding that empathy is a way of understanding that there is a oneness in the world and of which we are all a part, and that we can use this understanding and this awareness as a tool of thinking about a lot of what I was just talking about, the idea that there is connectivity, that we can foster, that we can enable, that we can reinforce through designed experiences where people can realize, oh, I’m actually a part of this story.It’s important to me because it’s relevant to me, even if it’s about people I don’t know or places I’m not familiar with.
Empathy as a tool can be seen as being a matter of showcasing different perspectives, hearing narratives from many different people and many different places, perspectives from many different periods in time, and to be able to not present necessarily just a singular idea or a singular perspective, but indeed to be able to explore subjects in a myriad of ways and through myriad even of interpretations.
Abby: Yup, now what comes to mind is our recent conversation with Jamie Lawyer from the Rubin Museum, when she explained that her first encounter at a museum, this young girl goes in, she’s standing there absolutely thrilled by what she’s looking at, and the docent comes over and her first thought is, oh my gosh, have I done something wrong? And he was like, no, I’d like to tell you more about this piece.And she felt that oneness, I think. I think she felt that emotional connection with what she was looking at, and it was so profound that now that’s what her life’s work is, to bring that feeling of oneness to all of the visitors who come into her museum. So, you know, from this one moment and this one kind gesture from the docent, but also the amazing curatorial work of the museum staff, connected with Jamie and her story.
Brenda: So when we were talking with Kiersten F. Latham, she was sharing with us how critical it was to think about the front of house staff and how important it is to really elevate an awareness of their role and that so much jibed with what we were talking about when we were having our conversation with Monica Montgomery and we were talking about how it is that people need to feel like they are welcomed in and not, you know, in some kind of a rarefied moment or a rarefied place such that it has nothing to do with them.
Abby: And what’s actually really interesting is when we did our project with the Smithsonian, one of the problems is their actual physical building, and that what it represents really excludes a huge proportion of the community. And so how do you break down those physical barriers and the mental barriers to make sure that you’re welcoming through your doors, as well as digitally, online and all the other ways we can do it, but in person into your establishment, and that they will feel that they have been heard and are a valued part of that community.
Brenda: Well, this loops even back around a little bit to talking about how it is that people need to be a part of the creation, that people are not the afterthought. This is something that when we were talking with Joy Bailey-Bryant from Lord Cultural, and she was sharing with us the idea of belonging and that we need to engage communities, individuals, as well as our experts, as well as our own staff in the creation of our institutions, in the creation of our exhibitions, of our programs, and that belonging very much so begins there.
Abby: And also our teams, our internal teams need to be diverse. Everybody’s sick of hearing it, but if they don’t represent the community at least as far as you can, then it’s just like a one trick pony. You have to have the different voices at the table, at the creative table.
Brenda: Abby, when I’m thinking about what you’re talking about, I’m thinking about Ellen Lupton and The Senses.
Abby: Oh, yes. Ellen was absolutely fantastic. Yeah. It was so interesting how Ellen came up with this wonderful show, The Senses like, which was at Cooper Hewitt a while ago, and it really relied heavily on scent and touch to tell the story. And what was inspiring about her story was how she came up with the idea for the show. Talking about musing, she was musing and thinking about her previous show, about beauty and questioning it, and what she kept coming back to is the sensory experience that had worked so well in that show.
And I think it’s fascinating that she allowed her mind and thoughts to wander and dream about what that could look like as an exhibition. She didn’t have an RFP. She had nothing. She just sort of went on this journey of interest for her. And so, through these musings, a large, more conceptual topic about the senses was born. And I really was thinking that asking what if, as a designer, is key at certain stages and giving yourself this air.
Brenda: Well you’re talking about something actually very sophisticated. You’re talking about operating in the subjunctive mood, which is specifically when you begin a sentence, let’s say, with imagine if or what if? And it automatically puts you in a hypothetical mindset. And in a space of questioning that absolutely does open up possibilities. And what’s really cool is not only is it useful, a useful way to think as a creative person or even as a business leader or whomever it is that you are, it’s a very important way to frame out an exhibition. Imagine if…
Abby: Yeah, we like that a lot, a lot of the successful exhibitions that we’ve made, or we’ve reviewed of our peers have the visitor answer those questions and really get drawn in and really try to think and play and engage with the content in that manner.
Brenda: You know, thinking about trying things and doing things and investing yourself in possibilities makes me think of Tom Bowman. Tom, right, our sustainability expert, who was so unbelievably inspiring to me, and interestingly, when talking about one of the biggest crises of our lifetimes, Tom left me with this feeling of hope and this belief that even the smallest of things can indeed be consequential and can make a difference, and that even if there are situations where you’re doing something and it might have a, you know, ill impact on the environment, it can nevertheless be better than the alternative which could be insurmountable, in terms of, you know, the damage that can be done.
And I think that what was really inspiring thinking about Tom was that he gave you a means of just grounding yourself in the midst of something that is just so huge, and that folks in the exhibit industry who are taking initiatives towards green design, towards thinking in terms of sustainable materials, sustainable practices, that it actually really, really does make a difference.
Abby: Yeah.
Brenda: Let’s talk about Andrea Hadley-Johnson.
Abby: Oh, perfect segue. Oh, Andrea, fellow Brit, she’s absolutely incredible. And she really made me stop and think about the way we curate for the local community and also collaborate with them. Like her story is amazing, when she told us about the exhibition at Derby Museum and the Objects of Love, Hope and Fear gallery, where she took artifacts in the museum out into the community who helped her understand what they were, and the story of going into the barbers with the comb. And they were telling her where they thought it came from, and then sharing their combs. So that idea of looking back at history and then looking back at the present and how we’ve evolved and just really working in that way with artifacts in the community, it sort of completely blew my mind.
Brenda: Again, connection, belonging and it’s just another nice reinforcing example of how our guests are talking about connectivity, how they’re talking about people belonging, and how we’re talking about multiple perspectives.
Abby: Yes, very key, multiple perspectives, and that also reminds me, at the National Justice Museum in Nottingham, Andrea had locals choose an object. She would sort a group of objects and they were doing a photographic exhibition, and the locals would come in and have to choose an object they wanted to pose with. One of the objects in the collection was a pistol, a little bit of an older pistol. So not something in the last decade or so, a bit older.
The lady had chosen the pistol and posed with this pistol, and a colleague of Andrea’s said, you know, we can’t show the pistol because gun crime is on the rise in the UK. And, you know, there’s also been a lot of knife crime. It’s really a serious issue for the government, and we’re a national justice museum, and it isn’t something that we should be messing around with. It was a very serious conversation about what she was trying to do. And for Andrea, it was censorship, and she discussed how it really matters to have these kinds of conversations.
So, I just found this absolutely fantastic. And it’s so interesting how an artifact can sit there in front of us all, very quietly and go unnoticed. And when it’s selected out and put into a different environment, let’s say, in terms of the lady holding the pistol for a photograph, it takes on a whole new meaning.
Brenda: Well, I’m thinking as well about going back to Jasminko Halilovic and talking about the War Childhood Museum, where we are seeing objects that have bullet holes in them and that show the violent end, right, of guns. And what that means, like in terms of this conversation about what we choose to show in our institutions and what the meaning of these things is and how it is that Andrea had to really fight and advocate for allowing people to respond to objects in a way that was natural to them, and to have it be like you were saying, a conversation.
Abby: I think she embodied, as a curator, she has courage. It’s these difficult questions that bring us together. It’s these difficult questions that we have to be having in our museums. And there’s not always an answer. It’s not, again, it’s not about right or wrong.
Brenda: Abby, I think that a lot of our muses in their beautiful, flowing togas are kind of badass.
Abby: I do too. They are.
Brenda: I think what I’d like to do is get us chewing on something and give something for all of you listeners to play around with just a little bit. Give yourself a treat and take a couple of minutes out of your day and meditate on the meaning of something that is inspiring to you. And you know this is more than a treat. Okay, this is a meal. Give yourself a good hearty inspiration meal.
Think of something or someone that has inspired you, and it doesn’t matter how small the moment might have seemed or how inconsequential. Give yourself a tremendous amount of freedom to just remember and reflect upon something that you found inspiring. And then what you’re going to do is you’re going to imagine that you are conducting an interview with that person or thing, and you’re going to ask it or them about how they see themselves as important. Ask that person or that object what impact they make on people or on the world, and then ask them what their own hopes are, and then think about why it is that you are inspired by this person or thing, what connections you are making as a result of this inspiration, and then think about what feelings and hopes of your own are ignited. In doing this exercise, and thinking through those steps and imagining, back to the imagine if and what if brilliant way of questioning, you yourself are now a museum. Your mind is a museum, and you have the basis for designing an experience about your own inspiration. You are becoming your own muse.
Abby: Wow.
Brenda: I guarantee you, even if you mutter to yourself in the process of doing this.
Abby: Am I allowed to ask you who you thought, who inspired you.
Brenda: Oh my gosh, where to begin? I get inspired.
Abby: It’s me, isn’t it.
Brenda: It is you.
Abby: What do you mean Brenda, where to begin? I’m sitting right opposite you!
Brenda: Oh my God, I just, I didn’t want to make you blush, Abby. Okay, there you have it.
Abby: I’m blushing right now. Well, thank you, Brenda, for this incredible journey we’re on.
Brenda: Thank you, Abby.
Abby: Thank you for being my partner. I feel incredibly fortunate to be able to share the stories of our peers, to be honest with the wider audience and continue hopefully to support our community and in our small way, with one podcast at a time. So, it’s been a heck of a journey so far.
Brenda: So far, so good. Abby. Have a wonderful gold anniversary.
Abby: You too. And thanks to everyone who tuned in today and has tuned in before. If you like what you heard, it’s not always quite like this, but subscribe for more episodes of Matters of Experience wherever you listen to podcasts, please leave a rating and a review and share with a friend. We’ll see you next time.
Brenda: Take care everybody.
[Music]
Producer: Matters of Experience is produced by Lorem Ipsum Corp and recorded at Hangar Studios. Tune in next time for more fun discussions about experience design.
Cooper Hewitt, Smithsonian Design Museum – Lorem Ipsum Corp
The Senses: Design Beyond Vision
Objects of Love, Hope and Fear
Listen to some of the episodes discussed:
[Music]
Abby: Welcome to Matters of Experience. My name is Abigail Honor.
Brenda: Hello, I’m Brenda Cowan.
Abby: This podcast is produced by Lorem Ipsum, an Experience Design company, headquartered in New York, and our podcast explores the creativity, innovation and psychology driving designed experiences and encounters. Hello to anybody listening for the first time, and a welcome back to our regular listeners. So, Brenda, today is a very special episode for us both.
Brenda: It is. A very special episode.
Abby: It is, right? It’s our 50th episode. And when I look back at the array of guests from Bosco, who works at the San Francisco Museum of Modern Art, or Sundar, from the Museum of the Future, and Victor from Intel, who talked to us about the business of connecting people to stories, and that’s just to name a few. We’ve covered multiple aspects of experiential design, from initial concept, data gathering, inclusive design, multimedia, fabrication, and AI and I feel like we’re just getting started.
Brenda: It really does, doesn’t it, feel like we’re really just starting to sort of dig into this, which is so wild, and—so what’s 50? Silver? Gold? What are we, paper? What gift am I giving?
Abby: Yeah, what gift are we getting.
Brenda: You know, listening to the sort of the range of topics and some of the folks who, who we’ve been able to speak with, I’m also thinking of some of the amazing guests that we spoke with about subjects in design, such as empathy, emotion, satisfaction, community, and storytelling. You know, so much of what we’ve talked about over these episodes is the element of the person and the personal in designed experiences, and how important it is to stay true to the people with whom we work with and for, to always seek to enable individuals to have experiences on their own terms. That’s something that I just find myself coming back to time and time again. Good design fosters and encourages this dynamic. That’s my takeaway from so many of the folks and so many of the conversations that we’ve had.
Abby: So, Brenda, you had this brilliant idea for this 50th show, our little anniversary, which is gold, by the way. I googled it very quickly.
Brenda: Oh, it’s gold, okay.
Abby: I should have known that, not that that big day isn’t coming up for me in a few years.
Brenda: Put that ring on my finger, Abby.
Abby: But we’re going to focus on the subject of inspiration, what muses do and how they form the basis of a museum. So, settle in everyone, and we’re hoping, hoping to really inspire you with the conversation today.
Brenda: Well, inspiration Abby, it’s something that I’ve been thinking about quite a lot these days, in no small part due to the fact that I just got a mini break, a vacation. I just got back from back-to-back trips to Baltimore, Santa Fe, and Paris and in each place, no matter how humble the place was or how epic, I found myself caught up in these moments that inspired me to think, act, contemplate, and just sink into moments of quietude. And sometimes it was experiences where, let’s say I saw someone or something that surprised me and that made me want to engage. Or perhaps I was touching and smelling something in nature that was sending me flying back into early memories. I was in a designed light, sound and architecture extravaganza that blew my mind—side note, stay tuned for a future episode on that one. And all along throughout these experiences, I would catch myself having this like inner dialogue, questioning what I was responding to and wanting to know more, wondering about my own reactions and in what ways I was finding things so meaningful.
Abby: I just want to jump in right now. That’s so interesting, the idea of when you have the thoughts and feelings that you don’t know necessarily why or where they’ve come from, and it can be a bit sort of befuddling and exciting as well, as you start to learn more about yourself from these experiences and then try to draw conclusions from them about who you are, where you’re going, why you had them, where you’ve been. And I totally agree, I had a similar—I was at Cannes Film Festival walking down the street and I smelled something. It must have been some succulents or passing some flowers or something, and it immediately shot me back to my village days in, in England with horses in a field, which is so bizarre from being in sort of like a cement small town to get moved there, and then all of those emotions from being about that age came flooding back.
Brenda: As I was having my moments, I started to think about muses of inspirations that prompt us to wonder and question and learn and grow. You know, the nine goddesses of Zeus.
Abby: He had nine? Wait a minute, he had nine goddesses? Oh my goodness me, lucky man.
Brenda: But I was thinking of the nine goddesses of Zeus who preside over the arts and sciences and of the museum. So, Abby, when we’re talking about the museum, we’re talking about the seat of the muses. So if you’re following me, inspiration is key to all of this. And I think that being open to it and cognizant of it is crucial for creatives and leaders and, well, everyone that’s been on the show has been speaking to inspiration in one way or another. And in a way, our show is like a museum. Our show is a seat for the muses. So taking this moment to reflect on that and to see our guests as the muses that they are to us is important to do, and an awful lot of fun for our 50th. I’ll give you all a little heads up that we’re going to give you a little exercise in just a little bit, so stick with us and prepare to play a little bit with your own inspirations.
Abby: That sounds very exciting. So, when you talk about switching off, you just mentioned switching off, and I was thinking about daydreaming and, you know, looking for inspiration by switching off, and I know that I read a lot of studies about how it actually, this idea of daydreaming will reduce stress and anxiety. So it really can help there and bring back clarity and even efficiency and problem solving. You know, it can help you through big decisions or deadlines that you know you may not have the answers to all be able to do until you sort of like, switch off. I know it sounds like an oxymoron, like, how do you get something done when you actually disengage from it? But that’s at least for me as well, the way that it works.
And the same with creativity. I’m looking forward to going on a vacation because I’m looking forward to being able to switch off. But at the same time, I’m always absorbing content, information. But when you’re in the sort of more relaxed mode, you have time to contemplate and play in your head. And I think that playing, that creativity really is, for me at least, where my inspiration comes from.
And another thing that I think about all of our peers is they all seem to be multi-talented or interested in lots of different things. They’re not one trick ponies. So you could have somebody who’s an engineer who works in AR, who’s also a musician, and you could have someone else who’s got an amazing sense of fashion or likes to paint and design.
Brenda: Well, we just had Eli Kuslansky on, who is a brilliant multimedia technical designer and also a writer, an artist and a chef.
Abby: Yup, exactly. So, I really believe that you can find inspiration in very, very different places.
Brenda: It’s interesting that it’s the advice that I give my students when they get a mini break of their own, and so many of them will come and ask me, okay, what should I work on during my break and what should I and should I be doing this? And should I be doing that? And I can, you know, bone up on these particular skills and I can be reading this and la la la la la. And the advice that I give time and time again is do nothing, do something that brings you a lot of joy, that brings you pleasure, whatever it might be, and just sink yourself into that and it will reap rewards.
Abby: I also wanted to tie the subject of this podcast, which is muses and inspiration, with how I had the inspiration to do this. Brenda, it was your work actually at FIT, from coming in and having the privilege to speak to the students, and then seeing my peers coming in, also talking from the different facets of what we do. And I felt that we were missing a podcast about everything we do. And I realized that the group you were bringing in were all from very different walks of life, and the idea of this Matters of Experience sort of popped in my head, and you as the natural partner, so I just hoped you’d say yes.
Brenda: Of course I said yes.
Abby: And you jumped straight in.
Brenda: Seriously? How could I say no? And you and I definitely have a shared mission in terms of thinking about the profession and the need for this work that we all listening are engaged in, in our own individual and joint ways. The need for this profession to be viewed and understood more and more as a profession, as a thing unto itself. And the more that we can speak, the more that we can publish, the more that we can promote what exhibition and experience design is, the more it’s going to gain, I think, in terms of awareness.
Abby: No, it’s awareness and actually role in the creation of an experience. So that our clients can understand when they need us and why they need us. And it’s a shout out to SEGD and Cybelle Jones and that incredible organization and how they support us and get the word out to the community about what we do.
Brenda: I know that the times that we’ve spoken about the need for exhibition and experience design to really have more weight as a profession unto itself comes when we talk about architecture and the role of architecture and architects, and how architecture is viewed and how very differently so—
Abby: Yes, yes it is.
Brenda: —than where we’re coming from.
Abby: Yeah, and when—it’s really interesting, one of the episodes that resonated with me was early on with the architect, Alex Bitus. He brought us sort of three key drivers for his work, which were environment, materials, and the site history, which really makes perfect sense when you think about the exterior, and I guess sort of from his perspective, interior of a new building, but how it will fit or complement the world around it and be inspired by the local landscape through the materials, you know, he’s designed, he’s built it with.
But what’s interesting from our experience design perspective is that we create these environments that often juxtapose, to be honest, against the building design from maybe a form and a function perspective, and I think it’s okay that it does that. We design and service the story. What are we trying to say? What’s the right environment for that story? So we think about guiding the visitor through the journey and often design being inspired by the setting of the story, I guess more like scenic design or film set design.
Brenda: Well, when you’re talking about immersion in the moment and in the story, let’s also include emotional involvement, engagement with other people, engagement with objects as well. And these are things that we learned a lot about from so many of the folks that we’ve spoken with: community and connection and belonging. I’m remembering one of our early episodes with the wonderful Joy Bailey-Bryant, and I’m also thinking about Annie Polland from the Tenement Museum.
These individuals brought to light such important elements of the nature of being a creative and also storytelling and the nature of experiences being about people belonging, being welcomed, being a part of the story and feeling like and knowing that they are a part of the institution in myriad ways. And I’m also thinking about emotion and empathy-rich experiences, and our conversation with Jasminko Halilovic and Elif Gokcigdem, and Terry Snowball.
These are individuals who, for me, were so inspiring because they were really sharing with us how it is that emotions and evocative objects and difficult subjects and challenging subjects are a very rich part of the fabric of what we do and our ability to be able to share these stories in very sensory-rich ways is absolutely critical, and that emotion is a key part of this immersed experience that we keep hearing about and talking about throughout all of our episodes.
Abby: Well, it’s empathetic design, and I think it’s something that, I mean, you tell me, Brenda, it seems like something that’s really coming to the forefront, like right now, over the last few years, something that we all need to bear in mind. What caused this? Where did it come from? Has it been around and I’ve just been not looking in the right places, because I feel that in all of those examples, all of those museums, they really are powerful.
Brenda: I think that thinking in empathy has to do with and we, when we talked with Elif Gokcigdem, she spoke a lot about designing for empathy, which is really the focus of her life’s work, really. And she was talking about how understanding that empathy is a way of understanding that there is a oneness in the world and of which we are all a part, and that we can use this understanding and this awareness as a tool of thinking about a lot of what I was just talking about, the idea that there is connectivity, that we can foster, that we can enable, that we can reinforce through designed experiences where people can realize, oh, I’m actually a part of this story.It’s important to me because it’s relevant to me, even if it’s about people I don’t know or places I’m not familiar with.
Empathy as a tool can be seen as being a matter of showcasing different perspectives, hearing narratives from many different people and many different places, perspectives from many different periods in time, and to be able to not present necessarily just a singular idea or a singular perspective, but indeed to be able to explore subjects in a myriad of ways and through myriad even of interpretations.
Abby: Yup, now what comes to mind is our recent conversation with Jamie Lawyer from the Rubin Museum, when she explained that her first encounter at a museum, this young girl goes in, she’s standing there absolutely thrilled by what she’s looking at, and the docent comes over and her first thought is, oh my gosh, have I done something wrong? And he was like, no, I’d like to tell you more about this piece.And she felt that oneness, I think. I think she felt that emotional connection with what she was looking at, and it was so profound that now that’s what her life’s work is, to bring that feeling of oneness to all of the visitors who come into her museum. So, you know, from this one moment and this one kind gesture from the docent, but also the amazing curatorial work of the museum staff, connected with Jamie and her story.
Brenda: So when we were talking with Kiersten F. Latham, she was sharing with us how critical it was to think about the front of house staff and how important it is to really elevate an awareness of their role and that so much jibed with what we were talking about when we were having our conversation with Monica Montgomery and we were talking about how it is that people need to feel like they are welcomed in and not, you know, in some kind of a rarefied moment or a rarefied place such that it has nothing to do with them.
Abby: And what’s actually really interesting is when we did our project with the Smithsonian, one of the problems is their actual physical building, and that what it represents really excludes a huge proportion of the community. And so how do you break down those physical barriers and the mental barriers to make sure that you’re welcoming through your doors, as well as digitally, online and all the other ways we can do it, but in person into your establishment, and that they will feel that they have been heard and are a valued part of that community.
Brenda: Well, this loops even back around a little bit to talking about how it is that people need to be a part of the creation, that people are not the afterthought. This is something that when we were talking with Joy Bailey-Bryant from Lord Cultural, and she was sharing with us the idea of belonging and that we need to engage communities, individuals, as well as our experts, as well as our own staff in the creation of our institutions, in the creation of our exhibitions, of our programs, and that belonging very much so begins there.
Abby: And also our teams, our internal teams need to be diverse. Everybody’s sick of hearing it, but if they don’t represent the community at least as far as you can, then it’s just like a one trick pony. You have to have the different voices at the table, at the creative table.
Brenda: Abby, when I’m thinking about what you’re talking about, I’m thinking about Ellen Lupton and The Senses.
Abby: Oh, yes. Ellen was absolutely fantastic. Yeah. It was so interesting how Ellen came up with this wonderful show, The Senses like, which was at Cooper Hewitt a while ago, and it really relied heavily on scent and touch to tell the story. And what was inspiring about her story was how she came up with the idea for the show. Talking about musing, she was musing and thinking about her previous show, about beauty and questioning it, and what she kept coming back to is the sensory experience that had worked so well in that show.
And I think it’s fascinating that she allowed her mind and thoughts to wander and dream about what that could look like as an exhibition. She didn’t have an RFP. She had nothing. She just sort of went on this journey of interest for her. And so, through these musings, a large, more conceptual topic about the senses was born. And I really was thinking that asking what if, as a designer, is key at certain stages and giving yourself this air.
Brenda: Well you’re talking about something actually very sophisticated. You’re talking about operating in the subjunctive mood, which is specifically when you begin a sentence, let’s say, with imagine if or what if? And it automatically puts you in a hypothetical mindset. And in a space of questioning that absolutely does open up possibilities. And what’s really cool is not only is it useful, a useful way to think as a creative person or even as a business leader or whomever it is that you are, it’s a very important way to frame out an exhibition. Imagine if…
Abby: Yeah, we like that a lot, a lot of the successful exhibitions that we’ve made, or we’ve reviewed of our peers have the visitor answer those questions and really get drawn in and really try to think and play and engage with the content in that manner.
Brenda: You know, thinking about trying things and doing things and investing yourself in possibilities makes me think of Tom Bowman. Tom, right, our sustainability expert, who was so unbelievably inspiring to me, and interestingly, when talking about one of the biggest crises of our lifetimes, Tom left me with this feeling of hope and this belief that even the smallest of things can indeed be consequential and can make a difference, and that even if there are situations where you’re doing something and it might have a, you know, ill impact on the environment, it can nevertheless be better than the alternative which could be insurmountable, in terms of, you know, the damage that can be done.
And I think that what was really inspiring thinking about Tom was that he gave you a means of just grounding yourself in the midst of something that is just so huge, and that folks in the exhibit industry who are taking initiatives towards green design, towards thinking in terms of sustainable materials, sustainable practices, that it actually really, really does make a difference.
Abby: Yeah.
Brenda: Let’s talk about Andrea Hadley-Johnson.
Abby: Oh, perfect segue. Oh, Andrea, fellow Brit, she’s absolutely incredible. And she really made me stop and think about the way we curate for the local community and also collaborate with them. Like her story is amazing, when she told us about the exhibition at Derby Museum and the Objects of Love, Hope and Fear gallery, where she took artifacts in the museum out into the community who helped her understand what they were, and the story of going into the barbers with the comb. And they were telling her where they thought it came from, and then sharing their combs. So that idea of looking back at history and then looking back at the present and how we’ve evolved and just really working in that way with artifacts in the community, it sort of completely blew my mind.
Brenda: Again, connection, belonging and it’s just another nice reinforcing example of how our guests are talking about connectivity, how they’re talking about people belonging, and how we’re talking about multiple perspectives.
Abby: Yes, very key, multiple perspectives, and that also reminds me, at the National Justice Museum in Nottingham, Andrea had locals choose an object. She would sort a group of objects and they were doing a photographic exhibition, and the locals would come in and have to choose an object they wanted to pose with. One of the objects in the collection was a pistol, a little bit of an older pistol. So not something in the last decade or so, a bit older.
The lady had chosen the pistol and posed with this pistol, and a colleague of Andrea’s said, you know, we can’t show the pistol because gun crime is on the rise in the UK. And, you know, there’s also been a lot of knife crime. It’s really a serious issue for the government, and we’re a national justice museum, and it isn’t something that we should be messing around with. It was a very serious conversation about what she was trying to do. And for Andrea, it was censorship, and she discussed how it really matters to have these kinds of conversations.
So, I just found this absolutely fantastic. And it’s so interesting how an artifact can sit there in front of us all, very quietly and go unnoticed. And when it’s selected out and put into a different environment, let’s say, in terms of the lady holding the pistol for a photograph, it takes on a whole new meaning.
Brenda: Well, I’m thinking as well about going back to Jasminko Halilovic and talking about the War Childhood Museum, where we are seeing objects that have bullet holes in them and that show the violent end, right, of guns. And what that means, like in terms of this conversation about what we choose to show in our institutions and what the meaning of these things is and how it is that Andrea had to really fight and advocate for allowing people to respond to objects in a way that was natural to them, and to have it be like you were saying, a conversation.
Abby: I think she embodied, as a curator, she has courage. It’s these difficult questions that bring us together. It’s these difficult questions that we have to be having in our museums. And there’s not always an answer. It’s not, again, it’s not about right or wrong.
Brenda: Abby, I think that a lot of our muses in their beautiful, flowing togas are kind of badass.
Abby: I do too. They are.
Brenda: I think what I’d like to do is get us chewing on something and give something for all of you listeners to play around with just a little bit. Give yourself a treat and take a couple of minutes out of your day and meditate on the meaning of something that is inspiring to you. And you know this is more than a treat. Okay, this is a meal. Give yourself a good hearty inspiration meal.
Think of something or someone that has inspired you, and it doesn’t matter how small the moment might have seemed or how inconsequential. Give yourself a tremendous amount of freedom to just remember and reflect upon something that you found inspiring. And then what you’re going to do is you’re going to imagine that you are conducting an interview with that person or thing, and you’re going to ask it or them about how they see themselves as important. Ask that person or that object what impact they make on people or on the world, and then ask them what their own hopes are, and then think about why it is that you are inspired by this person or thing, what connections you are making as a result of this inspiration, and then think about what feelings and hopes of your own are ignited. In doing this exercise, and thinking through those steps and imagining, back to the imagine if and what if brilliant way of questioning, you yourself are now a museum. Your mind is a museum, and you have the basis for designing an experience about your own inspiration. You are becoming your own muse.
Abby: Wow.
Brenda: I guarantee you, even if you mutter to yourself in the process of doing this.
Abby: Am I allowed to ask you who you thought, who inspired you.
Brenda: Oh my gosh, where to begin? I get inspired.
Abby: It’s me, isn’t it.
Brenda: It is you.
Abby: What do you mean Brenda, where to begin? I’m sitting right opposite you!
Brenda: Oh my God, I just, I didn’t want to make you blush, Abby. Okay, there you have it.
Abby: I’m blushing right now. Well, thank you, Brenda, for this incredible journey we’re on.
Brenda: Thank you, Abby.
Abby: Thank you for being my partner. I feel incredibly fortunate to be able to share the stories of our peers, to be honest with the wider audience and continue hopefully to support our community and in our small way, with one podcast at a time. So, it’s been a heck of a journey so far.
Brenda: So far, so good. Abby. Have a wonderful gold anniversary.
Abby: You too. And thanks to everyone who tuned in today and has tuned in before. If you like what you heard, it’s not always quite like this, but subscribe for more episodes of Matters of Experience wherever you listen to podcasts, please leave a rating and a review and share with a friend. We’ll see you next time.
Brenda: Take care everybody.
[Music]
Producer: Matters of Experience is produced by Lorem Ipsum Corp and recorded at Hangar Studios. Tune in next time for more fun discussions about experience design.
The Muse in Museum
Breakdowns and Breakthroughs with Eli Kuslansky
Mr. Kuslansky installations include the Yale School of Management, Sony, The Smithsonian Institution, The New York Stock Exchange, Goldman Sachs, Intel, IBM, Times Mirror Corporation, The White House Visitor’s Center, and for Frank Gehry, Foster + Partners, and other architects, designers and Institutions around the world.
[Music]
Abby: Welcome to Matters of Experience. My name is Abigail Honor.
Brenda: This is Brenda Cowan.
Abby: Our podcast is produced by Lorem Ipsum, an experience design company headquartered in New York, and our podcast explores the creativity, innovation and psychology driving design experiences and encounters. Hello to anybody listening for the first time, and a welcome back to our regular listeners. So, Brenda, today we’re talking with Eli Kuslansky. He is the partner and chief strategist at Unified Field, an innovation and media production firm, which he founded 35 years ago. And that’s really kind of amazing. I just wanted to give you a big shout out for weathering all the storms and steering your ship—
Brenda: A lot of storms in 35 years.
Abby: —through economic waters, and the pun is intentional because you started at the South Street Seaport and did nautical antique appraisals for Sotheby’s and Christie’s. Let’s start there. Tell us a little bit more about that and where you got your start in this business.
Eli: Yikes, okay. No, no, well South Street was interesting because, when I graduated from Cooper Union, I wasn’t quite sure what the work I was doing, I really liked that much, and I wasn’t sure what to do and found this beautiful photograph of a kind of, like, a really interesting cat who is, like, playing banjo in a mix of, a shop full of ship models, which has been a big interest of mine. So, there was a photograph in a newspaper, newsletter my brother read. I looked over his shoulder and saw it.
Brenda: And that was it, that, you were hooked.
Eli: That was it. That was my first foray into museums.
Brenda: Fantastic.
Eli: Which is, you know, I always believe in this thing called the power of serendipity.
Brenda: Mmhmm.
Abby: Was it an ad in the newspaper? Was it like—
Eli: No, no, it was an article.
Abby: Just an article about South Street Seaport.
Eli: South Street, Seaport newsletter. And that was it. From there we worked for several years. You know, we did exhibits. We also sold stuff in the store, we restored and built ship models, museum ship models, and, from there I went to Ralph Appelbaum Associates, well, actually, there’s an interim between that and Ralph Appelbaum, I was a finish carpentry foreman.
Brenda: So somehow or other, in the midst of all of this, you got really interested in technology, perhaps hooked for life in technology. Where did that start? Where did that begin?
Eli: Yeah. Well, what happened was, you know, I was in construction to make a living. And at that point, I was a finish carpentry foreman, and, you know, I tired of doing that, and I wanted something cleaner, that paid better. So, I started taking CAD lessons, AutoCAD lessons, and I zoomed right through it. And then I had to get a job though I had no experience.
So, I lied. I figured the first five jobs I’d get fired from, but then at that point I’d have like five jobs on my resume. And then it was great, and then I could work through the night, you know, did my artwork during the day and I had like machines, four machine running macros. So, they let me do it.
Abby: Wow. Because you must have adopted CAD pretty early on then. What year was that?
Eli: Oh, God. I’m not saying. No, but to give you an idea of when we started the company, because we were one of the pioneers of it, that was the point when DOS was shifting over to Window, right, so it was text based. And one of our first jobs we did was to do an interface, graphic interface for the Bank of New York for their, you know, their institutional banking.
Abby: That’s crazy.
Eli: We, actually in the Window’s ward, I got to meet Bill Gates.
Abby: That was cool.
Eli: So, we realized at that point that this was going to be big.
Brenda: Let’s flow from that. Let’s talk more about media and museums, and Unified Field has been an innovator in museum-based media and technologies for a long time and absolutely still to present day. And I believe that your work is really particularly known for being very evocative, very emotion rich, and very much so centered around powerful human stories, and I’m thinking about a relatively recent project that you did, the Museum of Tolerance in LA.
I’m wondering if you can tell us about the work that you did there, because I know the project in particular, from you and am just enamored of it. Share with our listeners that particular project.
Eli: Well, the Museum of Tolerance Social Lab was a way to, you know, look at some of the pertinent and important topics surrounding things like, you know, anti-Semitism and intolerance, you know, things like that. So, we, somebody else I won’t mention who did some previous work on that for the conceptual part of it. And then we came in and this is typical in our case where we can, where we’re allowed to, we try to push the envelope.
So, to give you one example. There was a thing about points of view. So, we did this cube that was 9 feet high, 14 feet on a side, four sided, back projected. It was called Point of View, and it had directional sound, and it was kind of like a Rashomon movie in a way.
So, for example, you had, you know, let’s say a young woman is coming out to her parents that she’s gay, right, and there’s four participants. So, one side would be her point of view. It’s the same film shot four times. The other one would be the mom, the other one, the father. Another would be, I don’t know, the gardener, I forgot who it was, you know, it was something like that. So that was kind of cool.
You know, it’s tricky because museums are, you know, when they’re curatorially driven, they want to try and get as much content as they can, and it sometimes blends into being didactic. But that’s not, you know, we’re in a participatory culture in a digital society. So, it was like it has to be experiential and somewhat poetic, somewhat theatrical, even though the content has a lot of gravitas to it. So anyway, I don’t know, there was also something that they took out which was a tolerance test when they came in.
Brenda: Woah, that sounds provocative.
Eli: It was very provocative, but they wanted to take it out because one of the donors came in and found out that they’re intolerant.
Abby: So, it works then, it was working.
Eli: Yeah, sure it works.
Brenda: One would assume. I mean, the thing that I love that we’re hearing from you so much about this particular work is empathy, which is something that Abby and I’ve been hearing a lot about, and I know that in the profession, it’s a trend. It’s a real growing trend and I think that in many ways, if one can be an early adopter of empathy in exhibits, then I think that, and in this particular example as well, being very decisive and very sort of programmatic about what empathy can actually look like, how it can feel, how it can be poetic in an exhibit environment. That’s something that I really think about quite a lot when I think about your work.
Eli: Yeah, that’s interesting, well thank you. That’s a high compliment indeed. Yeah. I mean you have to make it empathetic because it has to resonate, not only just one type of audience, multi type of audiences, and otherwise it’s just technology for technology’s sake. So, you can still do the best technology and coolest technology, but if it’s not connecting with people and visitors, it’s not effective.
Abby: We also at Lorem Ipsum do a lot of work like this, and we find it challenging sometimes when potentially a client or an institution feels like it’s trying to tell a specific message or being, as you said, more didactic. And we try to often focus them more on the experience and the fact that people are coming in with different experiences themselves when they are standing in front and absorbing the messages and the emotions that are getting conveyed.
So, I’d love to hear your perspective on how you work with clients to allow them to have the courage to push the visitors into places that are uncomfortable. I mean, you mentioned the tolerance test, for example, and I think that’s exactly where we all need to be, by the way, I think if we’re just putting out things that people want and accept and have already chewed on, then, you’re not ever getting through. You need to put people in a subtly or uncomfortable sort of a place, otherwise you’re not challenging their preconceived notions of who they are and how they perceive others. So, I’d love to talk about the sort of like delicacy that’s needed when working with a client to really make something that’s worthwhile.
Eli: Well, the first part is you have to listen to them. You really have to actively listen to them and to let them know that you got what they’re saying. So, you’re not just pushing something on them. The other part of it, I think, is that you also have to present it in the format that they would get it, right, and then part of that is also making it their idea, so they own it.
You know, we also have this expression to look for the gold in the conversation because oftentimes, you know, you don’t like what they’re saying and they’re saying crazy stuff and like, you know, what are you talking about? You’re an amateur. But invariably there’s something in it that’s really valuable and that, that they’re trying to tell you and either frustrated about or they’re inspired by, and that’s the stuff you have to look for.
The other thing, too, is that it’s important to do focus groups. Because that will burst their assumptions about things, sometimes.
Brenda: It’s such a valuable thing and so rarely done, things like front end evaluation with the focus groups, interviews, town halls and sessions such as that and even formative, you know, at midpoint when you’re having to sort of really muscle through or negotiate things where the client is convinced it’s not working, you know it’s going to work. And at any rate, that’s a really critical takeaway for every client out there. Please, please consider evaluation, focus groups, testing in every possible way.
Eli: Yeah, it’s great. And we’ve done that in this, and I won’t tell you who the museums are, but there’s a story, right, so one science center, Midwest science center, wanted to do this thing, it was a totally questionable idea is the best way to describe it. But basically, what it is, is you have a screen, you listen to a bunch of scientists in a lab coat, which already boring. And then you vote on what they say. And we tell them, like, that’s not going to work. So, they said, okay, but we want to do it anyways, and they spent over $500,000 on it.
Brenda: Wow. Yeah.
Eli: Fast forward five years later, we have another museum in the east wanted to the same exact thing and we tell them, look, this XYZ science center built it. It didn’t work then, it’s not going to work now, but we want it. It’s like, okay, we’re going to do it for you, just with the caveat that don’t come back to us and say it doesn’t work and sure enough, it didn’t work.
Abby: But that’s interesting. We run into this a lot. We have the museum and the content people, and then I feel our job is to listen and understand what they’re trying to communicate and then we come up with the ways to effectively communicate it. I think part of our job is to understand how to engage the visitor in a fun and meaningful way, and that is not easy. I do not think that’s easy at all.
Brenda: No, it’s definitely not easy. And just like it’s not easy working with these clients who are, you know, might be hellbent on a particular idea that they feel strongly about. I’ll also add in one of the things that is really difficult about our whole industry, and that I also really kind of love is the level of vulnerability that people I think have to be able to embrace to do this kind of work, because when it’s done well, when it’s done with good partners, you have to take a lot of risks and you have to just simply not know.
You have to not know what it’s going to look like. And also you need to be able to really trust that things are going to connect with the visitor and that the, if it’s a collection, if it’s an idea, if it’s a story, whatever it is that the, you know, institutions about, that is so important and so valuable to you that people will be able to fall in love with it in little ways.
Abby: What’s your process? So, the listeners can understand, do you come up with how are you going to use an interactive, you know, are you looking at the story first and the best ways to tell that story? Can you just shed a little bit of light on how you guys think and how you come up with an end product.
Eli: Let’s talk about museums because brands are different. But I think in the case of museums, you really want to get a good snapshot of everybody’s P.O.V., if you will, and not just in formal meetings, you know, I know many years ago, when we first started the bank project, the senior product manager of the software project at the bank would go to their clients, and you’re talking about dealing with people at GM, at the highest level, you know, CFO, stuff like that. And in that, that’s a good case study, because we’d sit around these conference rooms and we ask them questions, blah, blah, blah. And it’s all like, you know, the guy who runs the software is interested in features, and the guy who’s the senior guy is in value, right?
So, it’s, it’s not like we speak to a client’s one language. You’re talking to 2 or 3 different languages. So, you have to be aware of that, across the body and stuff like that, you know. But what’s interesting is that most of the meeting was B.S., like you say an hour meeting, like, you know, the first 50 minutes, 45 minutes, totally useless. Right? It was at the end, the last five minutes that you would get the guy who is like the, who really knew the stuff inside and out would buttonhole you and say, look, it would really be great if we did this.
Brenda: You got the gold.
Eli: That’s the gold. So, once you have that, then you’re, you know, of course you usually work with exhibit designers and architects, stuff like that. And then you know, you got to get in alignment, the conceptual alignment. And the best time for us to come in is, especially in architectural based projects, is after they’ve done the block studies and other stuff, like in the overall arching themes and stuff, is to come in as an, early on in the conceptual phase. That’s the best benefit people get out of it because unlike the museum or the architects, oftentimes we’ll work across multiple industries or multiple cultures. So, we can bring that weight of knowledge and experience to this particular, you know, project.
Abby: People talk about listening all the time. And so when someone says, yeah, you got to listen, I think nobody’s listening to the fact what listening really means, because for me, it’s about going into a room and not having any preconceived ideas of what stories they want to tell and how you think they’re best to tell. And literally going in tabula rasa and sitting there and being completely open and hearing the client.
I’ve seen people think they’re listening, but they’ve sort of almost already know what’s going to happen or what they think it should be. And then they’re in the meeting and they leave, and it’s like they haven’t heard anything.
Brenda: Being highly present is really complicated, and part of me wonders when thinking about the client dynamic with the, I’ll call, I’ll lump us all into the creative, right, and the dynamic of creatives, I think that, man, when we are able to get into flow state, what a tremendous pleasure that is. And it really is right. It’s a state of optimal creativity, optimal experience, and it’s highly, highly present.
And it’s like ultimate uber present. You are just really in the moment, you’re creating and, right, all this great stuff is happening, and I wonder how much a client actually gets to experience that. And I think that maybe more confidence also comes from having been able to have those kinds of experiences and kind of come out on the other side, you know, you can trust yourself a little bit.
And so, I’m just sort of playing the empathy game here, really thinking about these different perspectives, because I think about most clients and you know, man, they’re constantly dealing with past and with future, and I wonder how much they get to really zone in the moment.
Eli: But I think, I think there’s an aspect to it that you really have to create a space of safety. A safe environment to be able to be vulnerable on your side and their side. So, in some ways it’s not just conversation, it’s a state of being.
Brenda: Eli, this is something that you and I have spoken about. I’ve known you for just about 18 years now, and I always love talking with you. I just love hearing where it is that you’re coming from. And I’m thinking of some recent conversations that we had actually through Covid and thereafter, and here’s the deal: you’re an artist; you’re a podcaster of Art Movez, which, listeners, I highly recommend you tune into; you’re also, as I see it, a philosopher and you—
Eli: Kind of like a street philosopher.
Brenda: Okay. But I think of you very much so as a Renaissance man, who has a lot of ideas about how it is that we’re currently operating at a time of profound growth, sort of societally, culturally, but also scientifically and a time of great discovery. And we would love to hear what’s your vision of art, culture and science in the world right now?
Eli: Yeah, that’s a great question. Well, I think the way the universe kind of works, according to my POV, is that it there is breakdowns and breakthroughs. And then you have to have a breakdown before you get a breakthrough, otherwise you have a perfect system. And the other thing that’s interesting about it; the breakthrough is at the same commensurate scale as the breakdown in terms of depth and breadth and stuff. So, the bigger the breakdown, the bigger the breakthrough, right.
So, you’re looking at now, we have an assault on democracy around the world and people’s rights. And you know, other things too. So, and it’s not quite accurate, but I, and the reason I don’t think it’s accurate, because I had this conversation with Chrissie Iles, who is the curator of the Whitney. And, you know, I said, you know, I think that we’re in a new Renaissance because of the old, you know, the plague sort of helped start the other Renaissance.
And she said, which one? You know, because it’s like there’s more than one. And you’re starting to see that, you’re starting to see it in medicine, science, you know, and the arts. You know, you look at a lot of fine art today, there’s really amazing stuff of it going around. Brilliant work. But for the most part, you know, 90% of it or more could have been done in the 1930s.
So, then the question is, what is art of our time, not art made in our time, which is how most museum, art museum describes, or, but how most museums describe it is like what is 21st century as art made in our time? But that’s not accurate. So now we’re starting to see a lot of artists experiment with it in a lot of ways and experiment with technology and, you know, whatever fabrication and other stuff like that.
Again, also, I think the best stuff still is the stuff that combines the old with the new, which is what Renaissance means. It’s a rebirth.
Abby: So, we’re quickly adopting and adapting AI all around the world in all the different industries, but we’re specifically thinking about AI tools in our work. I know as a creator you use AI in your art and exhibition concepts. And in a recent social media post you wrote, and I quote you, dealing with AI is like having an idiot savant muse who feels nothing, knows nothing, and understands nothing, like talking to the wind.
Now, I kind of do agree with this perspective, but an unfeeling idiot savant can be very useful. It’s infinitely patient, will work with me ceaselessly. It doesn’t have an ego, so it takes criticism and creative feedback really well. And since it’s been trained on a massive amounts of data, it can answer most questions and brings a wealth of context to many subjects. So, if you want it to be human, I think you’re going to be disappointed, at least right now, but if you accept it for what it is, I think it can be a really creative companion, unlike any human and, potentially soon, better. Why do you love AI and how are you using it?
Eli: Well, yeah, a lot of ways. I want to back it up a little bit about a couple of things. So ChatGPT is like talking to like a very fussy aunt sometimes like, oh no dear, you shouldn’t be saying this. So, but it’s, it’s great when you’re writing to just be able to get verbiage, right, and you can’t use what it comes out with because like generic crap, you know, so and it’s obvious, like what it does, just like image, a lot of stuff when you do text to image, it comes out this weird science fiction thing. But if you know how to use it, it’s an amazing tool.
The other thing too is that I think some of the most interesting things you can do with AI, especially in Midjourney, is not the text to image. There’s actually a command there, forward slash blend command that allows you to blend up to like five of your own images. And that’s when it gets really interesting.
Abby: And I’m really excited as well because I think it’s soon, it’s becoming with ChatGPT 4.0, multimodal. So, as we can start talking to it and things like that, instead of typing stuff, I think it’s going to start to be a guide. It’ll be a teacher. I don’t want to freak too many people out.
Brenda: Like me.
Abby: It’ll talk to you, and you can ask it questions and it’ll explain things. So, I feel like the future is getting to us quicker. I feel like this is all, AI has sped up so many things.
Eli: Look, AI is a double-edged sword. You know, there’s definitely going to be a shift in the economy in terms of, you know, I mean, you think about it; what happens when AI gets to the point where you can drive trucks around the country, that’s like tens of thousands or millions of people who do that for a living.
But the other thing it’s going to do is it’s really going to lower the cost of production, let’s say, for feature films, right? I think his name is Tyler Perry, very interesting story, and what happened with him is that he was going to spend eight hundred million dollar building 16 stages for film. And then OpenAI came out with Sora and Sora is text to video.
Now, like a lot of things AI, it’s not quite there yet. But he saw that and he canceled all the plans for the eight hundred million development because he figured, what do you need that for? You can just do it. Now, if that’s the case, if you don’t need, like, these super expensive soundstages to build these environments and stuff, you just do it text to, text to video, can you imagine what the cost of like making feature films would be, it’d drop significantly.
Abby: It’s so interesting you mention that actually, because I was just at Cannes Film Festival and I was in the Microsoft Café and they were presenting Copilot, where it can take, text and turn it into storyboards. It was having a little bit of difficulty doing it because it’s still in its infancy, but it is completely just around the corner. It’s incredible how much it’s going to help and streamline filmmaking.
Eli: I don’t think it’s there, by the way. And I’ll just give a quick example. I went many years ago into IBM, had the, you know, Watson thing or something like that. And one of the things they had was they had their AI, they made recipes from things that AI created. Now, I’m a self-trained chef and I know what things are supposed to look like and taste. And I was looking at this and said, yeah, you could combine those ingredients, but why? You know what I mean?
Brenda: I keep thinking and thank you for the segue, because you are a chef and I just think about quality and that’s it. You know, in terms of my analogy regarding AI, it’s like, I think the microwave is a really important tool and it is helpful. It does speed things up. It achieves things that would be pretty rough to do, I think, with other conventional tools. And I don’t think you could ever supplant the chef with the conventional tools. And that’s what I think about AI.
Eli: Well, speaking about AI and the arts, that’s interesting. So many years ago, at South Street, I got this Chinese junk. It was laying, beautiful junk, you know, made in the ‘30s, laying around in pieces. And finally, Covid came and the beginning of Covid I said, alright, I have a perfect opportunity to restore this thing because it takes a lot. So, it ended up being six months, 4 to 6 months.
And during this time, I say, oh crap, I should be doing artwork. Why am I doing this? Then I said, all right, well, I’ll figure out a way to connect this to the stainless-steel complex, you know, tensile structures I was doing. And then when I got finishing it, I look at this thing and said there’s no freaking way you can do this.
Like, until we had to start using Midjourney, and then I used the blend command, and I blended the photograph of this Chinese junk with the stainless-steel things, and it came out these ship designs that are totally crazy. I mean, you know, I have a background in ships and their restoration, and I showed that to my friends and they said, what, are you kidding me?
But then I said, oh, this is interesting. So, I’m turning this into an exhibit of this fictitious character who was an insane, you know, English designer, Naval designer, and he came up with these models. So, it’s interesting in a sense, because it’s a retro futurism exhibit that looks at the archetype of mad genius and the malleability of history, you know, because of the impact of AI. So, that’s one of the things I’m working on.
Brenda: And at the end of the day, it’s a beautiful story that you’ve created and accompanied by, again, really poetic, beautiful images of ships that may or may not ever actually sail—
Eli: No, would never sail.
Brenda: —but they don’t need to. Don’t need to at all. I love how we’ve come full circle—
Abby: Look at that.
Brenda: —to where we began.
Abby: Thank you so much, Eli, for joining us today and sharing all these thoughts. It’s been incredible. I think one of the biggest things for me is vulnerability and failing forward and having the courage to make mistakes in order to grow. So, thank you for sharing your wise words.
Brenda: Thank you, Eli.
Abby: And thanks to everyone who tuned in today. If you enjoyed it, subscribe for more episodes of Matters of Experience on Spotify or Apple. Please leave a rating and a review and share with a friend. See you next time.
Brenda: Thank you everybody, take care.
[Music]
Producer: Matters of Experience is produced by Lorem Ipsum Corp and recorded at Hangar Studios. Tune in next time for more fun discussions about experience design.
Mr. Kuslansky installations include the Yale School of Management, Sony, The Smithsonian Institution, The New York Stock Exchange, Goldman Sachs, Intel, IBM, Times Mirror Corporation, The White House Visitor’s Center, and for Frank Gehry, Foster + Partners, and other architects, designers and Institutions around the world.
[Music]
Abby: Welcome to Matters of Experience. My name is Abigail Honor.
Brenda: This is Brenda Cowan.
Abby: Our podcast is produced by Lorem Ipsum, an experience design company headquartered in New York, and our podcast explores the creativity, innovation and psychology driving design experiences and encounters. Hello to anybody listening for the first time, and a welcome back to our regular listeners. So, Brenda, today we’re talking with Eli Kuslansky. He is the partner and chief strategist at Unified Field, an innovation and media production firm, which he founded 35 years ago. And that’s really kind of amazing. I just wanted to give you a big shout out for weathering all the storms and steering your ship—
Brenda: A lot of storms in 35 years.
Abby: —through economic waters, and the pun is intentional because you started at the South Street Seaport and did nautical antique appraisals for Sotheby’s and Christie’s. Let’s start there. Tell us a little bit more about that and where you got your start in this business.
Eli: Yikes, okay. No, no, well South Street was interesting because, when I graduated from Cooper Union, I wasn’t quite sure what the work I was doing, I really liked that much, and I wasn’t sure what to do and found this beautiful photograph of a kind of, like, a really interesting cat who is, like, playing banjo in a mix of, a shop full of ship models, which has been a big interest of mine. So, there was a photograph in a newspaper, newsletter my brother read. I looked over his shoulder and saw it.
Brenda: And that was it, that, you were hooked.
Eli: That was it. That was my first foray into museums.
Brenda: Fantastic.
Eli: Which is, you know, I always believe in this thing called the power of serendipity.
Brenda: Mmhmm.
Abby: Was it an ad in the newspaper? Was it like—
Eli: No, no, it was an article.
Abby: Just an article about South Street Seaport.
Eli: South Street, Seaport newsletter. And that was it. From there we worked for several years. You know, we did exhibits. We also sold stuff in the store, we restored and built ship models, museum ship models, and, from there I went to Ralph Appelbaum Associates, well, actually, there’s an interim between that and Ralph Appelbaum, I was a finish carpentry foreman.
Brenda: So somehow or other, in the midst of all of this, you got really interested in technology, perhaps hooked for life in technology. Where did that start? Where did that begin?
Eli: Yeah. Well, what happened was, you know, I was in construction to make a living. And at that point, I was a finish carpentry foreman, and, you know, I tired of doing that, and I wanted something cleaner, that paid better. So, I started taking CAD lessons, AutoCAD lessons, and I zoomed right through it. And then I had to get a job though I had no experience.
So, I lied. I figured the first five jobs I’d get fired from, but then at that point I’d have like five jobs on my resume. And then it was great, and then I could work through the night, you know, did my artwork during the day and I had like machines, four machine running macros. So, they let me do it.
Abby: Wow. Because you must have adopted CAD pretty early on then. What year was that?
Eli: Oh, God. I’m not saying. No, but to give you an idea of when we started the company, because we were one of the pioneers of it, that was the point when DOS was shifting over to Window, right, so it was text based. And one of our first jobs we did was to do an interface, graphic interface for the Bank of New York for their, you know, their institutional banking.
Abby: That’s crazy.
Eli: We, actually in the Window’s ward, I got to meet Bill Gates.
Abby: That was cool.
Eli: So, we realized at that point that this was going to be big.
Brenda: Let’s flow from that. Let’s talk more about media and museums, and Unified Field has been an innovator in museum-based media and technologies for a long time and absolutely still to present day. And I believe that your work is really particularly known for being very evocative, very emotion rich, and very much so centered around powerful human stories, and I’m thinking about a relatively recent project that you did, the Museum of Tolerance in LA.
I’m wondering if you can tell us about the work that you did there, because I know the project in particular, from you and am just enamored of it. Share with our listeners that particular project.
Eli: Well, the Museum of Tolerance Social Lab was a way to, you know, look at some of the pertinent and important topics surrounding things like, you know, anti-Semitism and intolerance, you know, things like that. So, we, somebody else I won’t mention who did some previous work on that for the conceptual part of it. And then we came in and this is typical in our case where we can, where we’re allowed to, we try to push the envelope.
So, to give you one example. There was a thing about points of view. So, we did this cube that was 9 feet high, 14 feet on a side, four sided, back projected. It was called Point of View, and it had directional sound, and it was kind of like a Rashomon movie in a way.
So, for example, you had, you know, let’s say a young woman is coming out to her parents that she’s gay, right, and there’s four participants. So, one side would be her point of view. It’s the same film shot four times. The other one would be the mom, the other one, the father. Another would be, I don’t know, the gardener, I forgot who it was, you know, it was something like that. So that was kind of cool.
You know, it’s tricky because museums are, you know, when they’re curatorially driven, they want to try and get as much content as they can, and it sometimes blends into being didactic. But that’s not, you know, we’re in a participatory culture in a digital society. So, it was like it has to be experiential and somewhat poetic, somewhat theatrical, even though the content has a lot of gravitas to it. So anyway, I don’t know, there was also something that they took out which was a tolerance test when they came in.
Brenda: Woah, that sounds provocative.
Eli: It was very provocative, but they wanted to take it out because one of the donors came in and found out that they’re intolerant.
Abby: So, it works then, it was working.
Eli: Yeah, sure it works.
Brenda: One would assume. I mean, the thing that I love that we’re hearing from you so much about this particular work is empathy, which is something that Abby and I’ve been hearing a lot about, and I know that in the profession, it’s a trend. It’s a real growing trend and I think that in many ways, if one can be an early adopter of empathy in exhibits, then I think that, and in this particular example as well, being very decisive and very sort of programmatic about what empathy can actually look like, how it can feel, how it can be poetic in an exhibit environment. That’s something that I really think about quite a lot when I think about your work.
Eli: Yeah, that’s interesting, well thank you. That’s a high compliment indeed. Yeah. I mean you have to make it empathetic because it has to resonate, not only just one type of audience, multi type of audiences, and otherwise it’s just technology for technology’s sake. So, you can still do the best technology and coolest technology, but if it’s not connecting with people and visitors, it’s not effective.
Abby: We also at Lorem Ipsum do a lot of work like this, and we find it challenging sometimes when potentially a client or an institution feels like it’s trying to tell a specific message or being, as you said, more didactic. And we try to often focus them more on the experience and the fact that people are coming in with different experiences themselves when they are standing in front and absorbing the messages and the emotions that are getting conveyed.
So, I’d love to hear your perspective on how you work with clients to allow them to have the courage to push the visitors into places that are uncomfortable. I mean, you mentioned the tolerance test, for example, and I think that’s exactly where we all need to be, by the way, I think if we’re just putting out things that people want and accept and have already chewed on, then, you’re not ever getting through. You need to put people in a subtly or uncomfortable sort of a place, otherwise you’re not challenging their preconceived notions of who they are and how they perceive others. So, I’d love to talk about the sort of like delicacy that’s needed when working with a client to really make something that’s worthwhile.
Eli: Well, the first part is you have to listen to them. You really have to actively listen to them and to let them know that you got what they’re saying. So, you’re not just pushing something on them. The other part of it, I think, is that you also have to present it in the format that they would get it, right, and then part of that is also making it their idea, so they own it.
You know, we also have this expression to look for the gold in the conversation because oftentimes, you know, you don’t like what they’re saying and they’re saying crazy stuff and like, you know, what are you talking about? You’re an amateur. But invariably there’s something in it that’s really valuable and that, that they’re trying to tell you and either frustrated about or they’re inspired by, and that’s the stuff you have to look for.
The other thing, too, is that it’s important to do focus groups. Because that will burst their assumptions about things, sometimes.
Brenda: It’s such a valuable thing and so rarely done, things like front end evaluation with the focus groups, interviews, town halls and sessions such as that and even formative, you know, at midpoint when you’re having to sort of really muscle through or negotiate things where the client is convinced it’s not working, you know it’s going to work. And at any rate, that’s a really critical takeaway for every client out there. Please, please consider evaluation, focus groups, testing in every possible way.
Eli: Yeah, it’s great. And we’ve done that in this, and I won’t tell you who the museums are, but there’s a story, right, so one science center, Midwest science center, wanted to do this thing, it was a totally questionable idea is the best way to describe it. But basically, what it is, is you have a screen, you listen to a bunch of scientists in a lab coat, which already boring. And then you vote on what they say. And we tell them, like, that’s not going to work. So, they said, okay, but we want to do it anyways, and they spent over $500,000 on it.
Brenda: Wow. Yeah.
Eli: Fast forward five years later, we have another museum in the east wanted to the same exact thing and we tell them, look, this XYZ science center built it. It didn’t work then, it’s not going to work now, but we want it. It’s like, okay, we’re going to do it for you, just with the caveat that don’t come back to us and say it doesn’t work and sure enough, it didn’t work.
Abby: But that’s interesting. We run into this a lot. We have the museum and the content people, and then I feel our job is to listen and understand what they’re trying to communicate and then we come up with the ways to effectively communicate it. I think part of our job is to understand how to engage the visitor in a fun and meaningful way, and that is not easy. I do not think that’s easy at all.
Brenda: No, it’s definitely not easy. And just like it’s not easy working with these clients who are, you know, might be hellbent on a particular idea that they feel strongly about. I’ll also add in one of the things that is really difficult about our whole industry, and that I also really kind of love is the level of vulnerability that people I think have to be able to embrace to do this kind of work, because when it’s done well, when it’s done with good partners, you have to take a lot of risks and you have to just simply not know.
You have to not know what it’s going to look like. And also you need to be able to really trust that things are going to connect with the visitor and that the, if it’s a collection, if it’s an idea, if it’s a story, whatever it is that the, you know, institutions about, that is so important and so valuable to you that people will be able to fall in love with it in little ways.
Abby: What’s your process? So, the listeners can understand, do you come up with how are you going to use an interactive, you know, are you looking at the story first and the best ways to tell that story? Can you just shed a little bit of light on how you guys think and how you come up with an end product.
Eli: Let’s talk about museums because brands are different. But I think in the case of museums, you really want to get a good snapshot of everybody’s P.O.V., if you will, and not just in formal meetings, you know, I know many years ago, when we first started the bank project, the senior product manager of the software project at the bank would go to their clients, and you’re talking about dealing with people at GM, at the highest level, you know, CFO, stuff like that. And in that, that’s a good case study, because we’d sit around these conference rooms and we ask them questions, blah, blah, blah. And it’s all like, you know, the guy who runs the software is interested in features, and the guy who’s the senior guy is in value, right?
So, it’s, it’s not like we speak to a client’s one language. You’re talking to 2 or 3 different languages. So, you have to be aware of that, across the body and stuff like that, you know. But what’s interesting is that most of the meeting was B.S., like you say an hour meeting, like, you know, the first 50 minutes, 45 minutes, totally useless. Right? It was at the end, the last five minutes that you would get the guy who is like the, who really knew the stuff inside and out would buttonhole you and say, look, it would really be great if we did this.
Brenda: You got the gold.
Eli: That’s the gold. So, once you have that, then you’re, you know, of course you usually work with exhibit designers and architects, stuff like that. And then you know, you got to get in alignment, the conceptual alignment. And the best time for us to come in is, especially in architectural based projects, is after they’ve done the block studies and other stuff, like in the overall arching themes and stuff, is to come in as an, early on in the conceptual phase. That’s the best benefit people get out of it because unlike the museum or the architects, oftentimes we’ll work across multiple industries or multiple cultures. So, we can bring that weight of knowledge and experience to this particular, you know, project.
Abby: People talk about listening all the time. And so when someone says, yeah, you got to listen, I think nobody’s listening to the fact what listening really means, because for me, it’s about going into a room and not having any preconceived ideas of what stories they want to tell and how you think they’re best to tell. And literally going in tabula rasa and sitting there and being completely open and hearing the client.
I’ve seen people think they’re listening, but they’ve sort of almost already know what’s going to happen or what they think it should be. And then they’re in the meeting and they leave, and it’s like they haven’t heard anything.
Brenda: Being highly present is really complicated, and part of me wonders when thinking about the client dynamic with the, I’ll call, I’ll lump us all into the creative, right, and the dynamic of creatives, I think that, man, when we are able to get into flow state, what a tremendous pleasure that is. And it really is right. It’s a state of optimal creativity, optimal experience, and it’s highly, highly present.
And it’s like ultimate uber present. You are just really in the moment, you’re creating and, right, all this great stuff is happening, and I wonder how much a client actually gets to experience that. And I think that maybe more confidence also comes from having been able to have those kinds of experiences and kind of come out on the other side, you know, you can trust yourself a little bit.
And so, I’m just sort of playing the empathy game here, really thinking about these different perspectives, because I think about most clients and you know, man, they’re constantly dealing with past and with future, and I wonder how much they get to really zone in the moment.
Eli: But I think, I think there’s an aspect to it that you really have to create a space of safety. A safe environment to be able to be vulnerable on your side and their side. So, in some ways it’s not just conversation, it’s a state of being.
Brenda: Eli, this is something that you and I have spoken about. I’ve known you for just about 18 years now, and I always love talking with you. I just love hearing where it is that you’re coming from. And I’m thinking of some recent conversations that we had actually through Covid and thereafter, and here’s the deal: you’re an artist; you’re a podcaster of Art Movez, which, listeners, I highly recommend you tune into; you’re also, as I see it, a philosopher and you—
Eli: Kind of like a street philosopher.
Brenda: Okay. But I think of you very much so as a Renaissance man, who has a lot of ideas about how it is that we’re currently operating at a time of profound growth, sort of societally, culturally, but also scientifically and a time of great discovery. And we would love to hear what’s your vision of art, culture and science in the world right now?
Eli: Yeah, that’s a great question. Well, I think the way the universe kind of works, according to my POV, is that it there is breakdowns and breakthroughs. And then you have to have a breakdown before you get a breakthrough, otherwise you have a perfect system. And the other thing that’s interesting about it; the breakthrough is at the same commensurate scale as the breakdown in terms of depth and breadth and stuff. So, the bigger the breakdown, the bigger the breakthrough, right.
So, you’re looking at now, we have an assault on democracy around the world and people’s rights. And you know, other things too. So, and it’s not quite accurate, but I, and the reason I don’t think it’s accurate, because I had this conversation with Chrissie Iles, who is the curator of the Whitney. And, you know, I said, you know, I think that we’re in a new Renaissance because of the old, you know, the plague sort of helped start the other Renaissance.
And she said, which one? You know, because it’s like there’s more than one. And you’re starting to see that, you’re starting to see it in medicine, science, you know, and the arts. You know, you look at a lot of fine art today, there’s really amazing stuff of it going around. Brilliant work. But for the most part, you know, 90% of it or more could have been done in the 1930s.
So, then the question is, what is art of our time, not art made in our time, which is how most museum, art museum describes, or, but how most museums describe it is like what is 21st century as art made in our time? But that’s not accurate. So now we’re starting to see a lot of artists experiment with it in a lot of ways and experiment with technology and, you know, whatever fabrication and other stuff like that.
Again, also, I think the best stuff still is the stuff that combines the old with the new, which is what Renaissance means. It’s a rebirth.
Abby: So, we’re quickly adopting and adapting AI all around the world in all the different industries, but we’re specifically thinking about AI tools in our work. I know as a creator you use AI in your art and exhibition concepts. And in a recent social media post you wrote, and I quote you, dealing with AI is like having an idiot savant muse who feels nothing, knows nothing, and understands nothing, like talking to the wind.
Now, I kind of do agree with this perspective, but an unfeeling idiot savant can be very useful. It’s infinitely patient, will work with me ceaselessly. It doesn’t have an ego, so it takes criticism and creative feedback really well. And since it’s been trained on a massive amounts of data, it can answer most questions and brings a wealth of context to many subjects. So, if you want it to be human, I think you’re going to be disappointed, at least right now, but if you accept it for what it is, I think it can be a really creative companion, unlike any human and, potentially soon, better. Why do you love AI and how are you using it?
Eli: Well, yeah, a lot of ways. I want to back it up a little bit about a couple of things. So ChatGPT is like talking to like a very fussy aunt sometimes like, oh no dear, you shouldn’t be saying this. So, but it’s, it’s great when you’re writing to just be able to get verbiage, right, and you can’t use what it comes out with because like generic crap, you know, so and it’s obvious, like what it does, just like image, a lot of stuff when you do text to image, it comes out this weird science fiction thing. But if you know how to use it, it’s an amazing tool.
The other thing too is that I think some of the most interesting things you can do with AI, especially in Midjourney, is not the text to image. There’s actually a command there, forward slash blend command that allows you to blend up to like five of your own images. And that’s when it gets really interesting.
Abby: And I’m really excited as well because I think it’s soon, it’s becoming with ChatGPT 4.0, multimodal. So, as we can start talking to it and things like that, instead of typing stuff, I think it’s going to start to be a guide. It’ll be a teacher. I don’t want to freak too many people out.
Brenda: Like me.
Abby: It’ll talk to you, and you can ask it questions and it’ll explain things. So, I feel like the future is getting to us quicker. I feel like this is all, AI has sped up so many things.
Eli: Look, AI is a double-edged sword. You know, there’s definitely going to be a shift in the economy in terms of, you know, I mean, you think about it; what happens when AI gets to the point where you can drive trucks around the country, that’s like tens of thousands or millions of people who do that for a living.
But the other thing it’s going to do is it’s really going to lower the cost of production, let’s say, for feature films, right? I think his name is Tyler Perry, very interesting story, and what happened with him is that he was going to spend eight hundred million dollar building 16 stages for film. And then OpenAI came out with Sora and Sora is text to video.
Now, like a lot of things AI, it’s not quite there yet. But he saw that and he canceled all the plans for the eight hundred million development because he figured, what do you need that for? You can just do it. Now, if that’s the case, if you don’t need, like, these super expensive soundstages to build these environments and stuff, you just do it text to, text to video, can you imagine what the cost of like making feature films would be, it’d drop significantly.
Abby: It’s so interesting you mention that actually, because I was just at Cannes Film Festival and I was in the Microsoft Café and they were presenting Copilot, where it can take, text and turn it into storyboards. It was having a little bit of difficulty doing it because it’s still in its infancy, but it is completely just around the corner. It’s incredible how much it’s going to help and streamline filmmaking.
Eli: I don’t think it’s there, by the way. And I’ll just give a quick example. I went many years ago into IBM, had the, you know, Watson thing or something like that. And one of the things they had was they had their AI, they made recipes from things that AI created. Now, I’m a self-trained chef and I know what things are supposed to look like and taste. And I was looking at this and said, yeah, you could combine those ingredients, but why? You know what I mean?
Brenda: I keep thinking and thank you for the segue, because you are a chef and I just think about quality and that’s it. You know, in terms of my analogy regarding AI, it’s like, I think the microwave is a really important tool and it is helpful. It does speed things up. It achieves things that would be pretty rough to do, I think, with other conventional tools. And I don’t think you could ever supplant the chef with the conventional tools. And that’s what I think about AI.
Eli: Well, speaking about AI and the arts, that’s interesting. So many years ago, at South Street, I got this Chinese junk. It was laying, beautiful junk, you know, made in the ‘30s, laying around in pieces. And finally, Covid came and the beginning of Covid I said, alright, I have a perfect opportunity to restore this thing because it takes a lot. So, it ended up being six months, 4 to 6 months.
And during this time, I say, oh crap, I should be doing artwork. Why am I doing this? Then I said, all right, well, I’ll figure out a way to connect this to the stainless-steel complex, you know, tensile structures I was doing. And then when I got finishing it, I look at this thing and said there’s no freaking way you can do this.
Like, until we had to start using Midjourney, and then I used the blend command, and I blended the photograph of this Chinese junk with the stainless-steel things, and it came out these ship designs that are totally crazy. I mean, you know, I have a background in ships and their restoration, and I showed that to my friends and they said, what, are you kidding me?
But then I said, oh, this is interesting. So, I’m turning this into an exhibit of this fictitious character who was an insane, you know, English designer, Naval designer, and he came up with these models. So, it’s interesting in a sense, because it’s a retro futurism exhibit that looks at the archetype of mad genius and the malleability of history, you know, because of the impact of AI. So, that’s one of the things I’m working on.
Brenda: And at the end of the day, it’s a beautiful story that you’ve created and accompanied by, again, really poetic, beautiful images of ships that may or may not ever actually sail—
Eli: No, would never sail.
Brenda: —but they don’t need to. Don’t need to at all. I love how we’ve come full circle—
Abby: Look at that.
Brenda: —to where we began.
Abby: Thank you so much, Eli, for joining us today and sharing all these thoughts. It’s been incredible. I think one of the biggest things for me is vulnerability and failing forward and having the courage to make mistakes in order to grow. So, thank you for sharing your wise words.
Brenda: Thank you, Eli.
Abby: And thanks to everyone who tuned in today. If you enjoyed it, subscribe for more episodes of Matters of Experience on Spotify or Apple. Please leave a rating and a review and share with a friend. See you next time.
Brenda: Thank you everybody, take care.
[Music]
Producer: Matters of Experience is produced by Lorem Ipsum Corp and recorded at Hangar Studios. Tune in next time for more fun discussions about experience design.
Breakdowns and Breakthroughs with Eli Kuslansky
Creating with Nature with Melissa McGill
[Music]
Abby: Welcome to Matters of Experience, a podcast that explores the creativity, innovation and psychology driving designed experiences and encounters. If you’re new, a big welcome and to our regular listeners, thank you for tuning in. My name is Abigail Honor.
Brenda: Hello, everyone. This is Brenda Cowan.
Abby: So today we’re talking with Melissa McGill, who’s an artist, activist, and water storyteller. She’s known for collaborative, ambitious, site-specific public art projects that really explore nuanced conversations between land, water, sustainable traditions, and the interconnectedness of humankind. Spanning a variety of media including performance, photography, painting, sculpture, sound, light, video and immersive installation, Melissa has presented both independent public art projects and solo exhibitions nationally and internationally.
Abby: Melissa, welcome to the show.
Melissa: Thank you so much. I’m so happy to be here with you.
Brenda: Melissa, your work is so amazing. Abby and I are thrilled to be talking with you today.
Melissa: Thank you.
Brenda: Yeah, absolutely. But Abby and I are really curious to know why you feel creative experiences are important to communities. Can you give us an example of a particular creative experience that you think has really made a huge, a huge difference?
Melissa: I think that things that draw us into awe and wonder and a sense of really, you know, the planet we live on, our interconnectedness, those are the things that really move me. And I think there’s incredible potential to creative collaboration.
So, one work that immediately comes to mind, a work that is such an inspiration to me personally, is a work by an artist named Maria Lai. She’s a Sardinian artist. She’s passed now, but she did a project called “Legarsi alla montagna,” where she activated her entire village to be connected through a blue ribbon, basically a blue cloth ribbon that was woven through the town. And everybody got involved. And then this ribbon was brought up the mountains, so they were literally tied to themselves, to the mountain, you know, and since what’s happened in that village and how the people came together around that project was really inspiring to me.
Brenda: And why are these important? Why are these kinds of creative experiences important in the first place?
Melissa: Well, I think we live in a time that’s very deeply, deeply challenging, and we are out of balance and disconnected from each other and the environment, and this robs us of our collective agency. So, if we remember that nature is really our wisest ancestral guide, and that how deeply interconnected we all are, we can come together and celebrate the interconnectedness and find balance and a harmonious path forward. I think there’s incredible potential for that in public space.
Abby: Would you say, Melissa, when I look at your work in general, does it sort of focus on nature and bringing community together through nature, like what’s sort of your focus as you’re creating a piece?
Melissa: It’s all water and stars. Very simple. That’s why I sometimes call myself a water storyteller. I’m really, I’m a water person, and that element is just so engaging to me. We have to care about our waterways, and so exploring nuanced conversations with land, water and sustainable traditions and the interconnectedness of all beings, not just human, but all beings, is at the heart of what I am interested in doing.
But I actually would say that constellation is really a form that all of my works take. Like with a constellation, it’s one star and then a collection of stars that are telling a story or that have, that become something else. And that is what’s happening in my work all the time. We are individuals, but then coming together collectively, we can create something different.
I mean, we can all have an idea that we start with. But when you engage in real conversation with, let’s say it’s a site-specific work with other people from that place, with people who, you know, let’s say if we talk about the Venetian Lagoon, where I’ve, I’ve done a major project called Red Regatta, you know, finding others that were deeply connected to that waterway and drawing on my experience, my own long personal experience with that waterway, brought us to new places.
Abby: So, talk to us, you mentioned Red Regatta first, so I’m going to piggyback on that because it’s a phenomenal project. Can you sort of describe to our listeners the end result of what Regatta could be expressed visually? And then sort of the pathways and the different collaborations with the different groups who helped bring Red Regatta to the water.
Melissa: So Red Regatta was an unprecedented independent public intervention. It took the form of four large scale regattas that activated different areas of the Venetian Lagoon in Italy. The vela al terzo sailboats are a traditional wooden type of boat and we sailed together. Each boat had its own set of hand-painted red sails, so every sailboat was hoisted with hand-painted red sails.
This project took place in 2019. It was presented in collaboration with the Associazione Vela al Terzo Venezia, which is the sailing club of this type of boat that is in Venice, and a team of over 250 Venetian and international collaborating individuals and partners, many who have never worked together before.
And so, why red? Why these red sails that were hand-painted for each boat? Well, my idea was that red is a color that has tremendous emotional range. It represents life force, passion, energy, but also alarm and warning. So just imagine 52 Venetian traditional vela al terzo sailboats sailing through the green blue waters of the Venetian lagoon in unison against the backdrop of the city to draw attention to so many of the issues that this waterway and that Venetians are facing, whether it’s climate change, rising seas, ever increasing motorboat traffic, the problem with the cruise ships, the ever shrinking Venetian population.
One other thing that I want to mention about these boats is these vela al terzo boats, they are so beautifully adapted to the city of Venice. You can raise your sales and sail through the Venetian Lagoon, or you can lower the sails, take the mast down, and then row your way under the bridges through the city. So, what an amazing, adapted perfect tradition that needs to be celebrated and moved, and brought forward. Those are the examples that we need, right, to navigate into the future.
Brenda: How on earth, Melissa, do you coordinate and lead a project on that scale? You mentioned that there were so many different groups and individuals. What did that look like?
Melissa: Well, first of all, I had an amazing team which I’d like to give, thanks and call out to. So, I collaborated, like I said, with the Associazione Vela al Terzo Venezia under the helm of Giorgio Righetti, who was the president of the association at the time. He’s since passed on.
And we had deep partnerships with the Comune di Venezia, all kinds of organizations in Venice, Oceana, the United Nations, Sailors for the Sea. I mean, it went on and on nationally and internationally, the Peggy Guggenheim Collection. We did Ocean Space. I mean, I could list so many, they’re all on the website, but I really celebrate the community.
And, I think that, you know, the, yes, I mean, there are many people when you start a project like this that will tell you that it can’t happen. I got a lot of that, like, no, this is impossible. It’s never going to work. But when you also have people who look at the project and say, wow, this would be amazing if we could do this, let’s, let’s try and then you just keep putting one foot in front of the other in dedication. You have to be incredibly resilient.
There’s an ancient Arab proverb that I always use, which is throw your heart out in front of you and run ahead to catch it. And that is basically what happened. So, there were many stages. There were many moments of like tearing your hair out like, oh my gosh, are we actually going to be able to do this? Actually, it was my project manager, Marcella Ferrari, when we were painting the sails.
She said, you’re going to look back on this and you’re going to just be astounded. And I was like so in it, I was like, okay, yeah, but we have to mix this color to go with it. Like, I was right, I was back in the details, you know? And now I look at it and even talking about it, you can probably hear in my voice like I actually, I’m kind of in awe of the fact that we did it.
I also think that all projects have divine timing. and the project timing of this project was really specific because I raised all the money for this project myself, like I do for a lot of my projects, my big projects, like Constellation and this one, I have had to fundraise and raise the money for these projects independently because I haven’t found another way to do them. And so, that is a huge responsibility. Fundraising is not my favorite part, but it’s part of what goes with, you know, something like this. And, you know, somebody said, oh, you know, we, we don’t have enough money yet, like, we really should, because the sails were expensive, and I gave them all to the sailors. They all kept, I gave them to them to keep.
So, somebody said, oh, you know, we don’t have enough money yet and we should postpone it. And I said, we absolutely cannot postpone it. I was convinced. I was like, no, it has to be now. And it was just like bigger than me, like it was just, has to be now. And then what happened right after was a series of catastrophic events.
A cruise ship, like a month or, a month or so after we sailed the last regatta in September 2019, a cruise ship crashed into the Fondamenta in Venice, something we were talking about. It’s like cruise ships in Venice. And then they had the worst flooding since the 60s, you probably remember the dramatic flooding of Venice that year. Like, you know, it was horrendous. It was like the whole city was destroyed. And then Covid. So, if it hadn’t happened then, we probably wouldn’t have done it.
Brenda: You are definitely in sync with, I’m sure, a lot of different forces, because what an uplifting, positive time of beauty you created in the city. And, you know, thinking about your connectivity with things. Let’s talk a little bit more about how your work incorporates and resonates with nature. So, you’ve mentioned deep listening. It’s, something that you encourage, deep, deep listening to nature as you create.
And this is really, it’s related to a lot of movements that we’re hearing about now, such as, you know, being very mindful, highly present, fostering deep connectivity through mindfulness and active listening. Tell us what deep listening means to you. What can we learn from it?
Melissa: I think that the deep listening is not just to, well, it’s to nature, but it’s also to each other. So how can we come together to address these urgent local and global issues creatively and collaboratively? This is the question that I think about. Like, you know, and I would say that seeking out authentic listening collaboration is so important because there’s a lot of people that talk about collaboration, but, you know, when you’re having a conversation, how much are you listening and how much are you talking? You know, also with the non-human, so that’s, you know, the other, I never know what to call that, it’s like other beings, other forces, because I always think of these projects as being collaborations with other people and communities, but also with the elements.
Abby: Yeah.
Melissa: And with the natural forces. I mean, you can’t sail a regatta without the wind and the water. But I think meaningful shared experiences that are designed to have lasting positive impact, it’s like if we shift the perspective and think about how to have these conversations in ways that are going to bring people together in joy and wonder with lasting positive impact, which I really build the projects around, all of them, then, you know, there’s a lot we can do with that.
Abby: So, some of your, you work in what I’d describe as unconventional places. For our listeners, what do you think, Melissa, some of the pros and cons are, when considering creating these larger public works?
Melissa: I think it’s really important that you really have an authentic relationship to the place. Like I make work where I live or where I have lived, or where I know people. Sometimes I go into new communities, but only with a tremendous amount of time with immersing myself in that, like, I am not going to be the artist who drops into a place and, you know, says, okay, let’s just make this, because it’s not going to have the same relationship to the place.
You know, I need that time to connect. Heart connect. It’s about heart connection. So, you know, a project in the Hudson River. I live on the shores of the Hudson River, a project in Venice, I lived in Venice. I have a deep community there. There’s a lot of places I haven’t been that I’d love to do projects, but it would take time to have a, build a relationship, you know.
One site that I take with me and I probably could do, you know, would be engaged to do a project anywhere there is this condition is, I am a person who is incredibly drawn to estuaries. Estuaries are places where, you know, as we know, there is saltwater and freshwater mixing. There are often marshes. There’s incredible biodiversity in those places. And they’re places that are between places that are very important in the world. And so, I do think I could go to any estuary and find my footing pretty quickly.
But that’s just like I have a very natural draw to that. But I think that if someone is, you know, planning to work site-specifically, I just hope they would do the work to really find out what is that place.
Abby: I do just want to build on a wonderful estuary where I grew up. I grew up on the Wirral, which is north of Wales and south of Liverpool. It’s a little peninsula there, so there’s an estuary which is now getting silted up. About 100 years ago boats would go up and down. So, from Parkgate is the name of the, of the town there, you can see over this beautiful estuary at all the biodiversity, over the River Dee there to Wales, and it would be an amazing place for you to do something.
Brenda: Put it on your list.
Melissa, let’s talk about time. A lot of your work connects the past, the present and the future. Why is this theme so central to your work, and do you ever think about permanence?
Melissa: I don’t think there’s any such thing as permanence. I also think we have to really get into the concept that time is not linear. It is more of a spiral, and we can really learn from the past. We can learn what shouldn’t be repeated, we can learn what is really sustainable and in right relationship to the planet we live on.
Many indigenous communities have the wisdom of that, and we need to remember what our interconnected relationship is there. So, I think that my connection of past, present and future is really like, what can we bring forward, like in the case of Red Regatta, bringing forward this tradition that is in harmony with the environment that it’s based in, is a good idea.
So, you know, we’ll think about that in connecting past, present and future. And also, you know, really, I love involve being the youth in the projects. I love involving, like I do family workshops and I involve people of all ages in the projects because we are all in this together and the youth are the future. And so, we really have to be including them in what’s happening and give agency again, inspire agency.
And that goes back to that theme of like climate fatigue and like, how can we come up with creative ways to navigate forward that are going to be in the interest of everyone eventually, hopefully.
Abby: Do you think we, we as humans ever learn? Because it seems to me that if we could all just look at the past, then we wouldn’t even be making some of the mistakes we’re currently making, let alone all the ones are going to be making in the future. Do you ever feel a little like this is just part of being human, and we’re constantly going to repeat the same mistakes?
Melissa: It goes a little bit to this idea of disconnection. I think that our culture and capitalism relies heavily on distraction, distraction from core values and the connection to the environment. And so, to remember that in any way we can is going to be a positive thing.
Brenda: Melissa, a lot of artists are talking about sustainability. When we say sustainability, what do you translate that to mean in your work?
Melissa: I think that sustainability is finding ways to be and to like, it brings up a lot of verbs for me, like, actually, like action, like how can we be sustainable not just for the humans, but for all of the beings that live on the planet. So, for example, you know, if we make decisions based on what’s best for everyone, that’s sustainability.
I mean, that’s the way I think about it. So, if something is in, as I was saying before, right, relationship to, you know, nature, to all the beings that are human and, and more than human, there’s all different ways of saying it. I mean, we’re never, but we can’t make any gross generalizations about what’s right for everyone. But I think that’s the thing that has to really be part of the conversation. and that’s one of the reasons I really care about beauty. Beauty in the projects is because beauty brings heart connection, and you don’t need language.
Abby: So, if you’re using beauty to move people, to make them rethink nature, why is nature on its own not enough for people? Why does it not connect naturally to us, do you think? Why are we happy living in our cement jungle?
Melissa: I think again, it goes back to distraction and the phones and the smartphones and the whole culture being in that, people aren’t, you know, are really in that. I know it’s been a useful tool. I’m not someone who is against technology, but I think we really need to think about the impacts that it’s had on people and how they’re connecting to the world that they are in.
Like, for example, when I was doing this project called Constellation. Constellation was a large-scale project around the ruins of Bannerman’s Castle on Pollepel Island in the Hudson River. Every evening as the sun went down, these starry lights emerged one by one with the stars in the night sky, and they created a new constellation connecting past and present, light and dark, heaven and earth. And it references a Lenape belief about Opi Temakan which is the “White Road” or the “Milky Way” connecting this world with the next.
So, what this was, was I mounted on this island 40 to 80ft poles, and at the top of each pole was a solar powered LED., so you would see this kind of vertical rhythm of these poles during the day. And then as the sun went down, the light would fade and the poles would disappear and these starry lights would come on one by one in the night sky and mix with the stars, actual stars and the moon and connect you back to this larger sense of this landscape. And out of the, just the narrative of this folly, of this Bannerman’s Castle, which was a, built by an Army surplus dealer, a Scottish immigrant, in the turn of the century who kind of turned it into an advertisement.
It’s like a folly. So started, and a lot of it has fallen down, which is why it’s kind of a ruin. And so, it’s part of the New York State Parks Department, Hudson Highlands State Park. So, going back into that site and bringing that connection to the larger landscape, we did boat tours all the time. I collaborated with the Bannerman Castle Trust to do these boat tours, which would bring people out on to the river in the evening, which hardly anybody does, and go to see the stars come on.
And so, one experience that I had that was so moving and I would, I will never forget it, was every time I did an artist led tour, which was often I would experience the same thing, which was we would have this, the public on the boat. And every evening as the sun went down and these points started to light one by one, over the 15 minutes or so that they lit, people would see one come on, somebody would say, there’s the first one or whatever, and then everybody would get out their phones and start to try to take pictures.
But it was night time on the river, and these were solar powered points of light like stars, so you couldn’t capture it very well with the phone, so you had no choice but to put your phone down, put it back in your pocket or your bag and just be there with each other and the smell of the river and the wind on your face, breeze or whatever it was. Sometimes, you know, and different phases of the moon and everyone would stop talking. Or if they talked, they would just whisper. It was like being in a cathedral or something. It was like being really there and present and connected, and it was incredible. So that was a gift.
Abby: So be in the moment. Put the phone down, be present.
Brenda: And listen.
Abby: Well. Thank you, Melissa, for joining us today. Yeah, thanks for sharing your work, the tenacity needed to create these projects and, the importance of nature for all of us and how at our core, we’re very much still part of the world we live in, dependent on it and need to take care of it. So, thank you so much for sharing today.
Melissa: Thank you.
Abby: And thanks to everyone who tuned in today. If you enjoyed it, subscribe for more episodes of Matters of Experience on Spotify or Apple. Please leave a rating and a review and share with a friend. See you next time!
Brenda: Thank you Melissa. Thank you everyone!
[Music]
Producer: Matters of Experience is produced by Lorem Ipsum Corp and recorded at Hangar Studios. Tune in next time for more fun discussions about experience design.
[Music]
Abby: Welcome to Matters of Experience, a podcast that explores the creativity, innovation and psychology driving designed experiences and encounters. If you’re new, a big welcome and to our regular listeners, thank you for tuning in. My name is Abigail Honor.
Brenda: Hello, everyone. This is Brenda Cowan.
Abby: So today we’re talking with Melissa McGill, who’s an artist, activist, and water storyteller. She’s known for collaborative, ambitious, site-specific public art projects that really explore nuanced conversations between land, water, sustainable traditions, and the interconnectedness of humankind. Spanning a variety of media including performance, photography, painting, sculpture, sound, light, video and immersive installation, Melissa has presented both independent public art projects and solo exhibitions nationally and internationally.
Abby: Melissa, welcome to the show.
Melissa: Thank you so much. I’m so happy to be here with you.
Brenda: Melissa, your work is so amazing. Abby and I are thrilled to be talking with you today.
Melissa: Thank you.
Brenda: Yeah, absolutely. But Abby and I are really curious to know why you feel creative experiences are important to communities. Can you give us an example of a particular creative experience that you think has really made a huge, a huge difference?
Melissa: I think that things that draw us into awe and wonder and a sense of really, you know, the planet we live on, our interconnectedness, those are the things that really move me. And I think there’s incredible potential to creative collaboration.
So, one work that immediately comes to mind, a work that is such an inspiration to me personally, is a work by an artist named Maria Lai. She’s a Sardinian artist. She’s passed now, but she did a project called “Legarsi alla montagna,” where she activated her entire village to be connected through a blue ribbon, basically a blue cloth ribbon that was woven through the town. And everybody got involved. And then this ribbon was brought up the mountains, so they were literally tied to themselves, to the mountain, you know, and since what’s happened in that village and how the people came together around that project was really inspiring to me.
Brenda: And why are these important? Why are these kinds of creative experiences important in the first place?
Melissa: Well, I think we live in a time that’s very deeply, deeply challenging, and we are out of balance and disconnected from each other and the environment, and this robs us of our collective agency. So, if we remember that nature is really our wisest ancestral guide, and that how deeply interconnected we all are, we can come together and celebrate the interconnectedness and find balance and a harmonious path forward. I think there’s incredible potential for that in public space.
Abby: Would you say, Melissa, when I look at your work in general, does it sort of focus on nature and bringing community together through nature, like what’s sort of your focus as you’re creating a piece?
Melissa: It’s all water and stars. Very simple. That’s why I sometimes call myself a water storyteller. I’m really, I’m a water person, and that element is just so engaging to me. We have to care about our waterways, and so exploring nuanced conversations with land, water and sustainable traditions and the interconnectedness of all beings, not just human, but all beings, is at the heart of what I am interested in doing.
But I actually would say that constellation is really a form that all of my works take. Like with a constellation, it’s one star and then a collection of stars that are telling a story or that have, that become something else. And that is what’s happening in my work all the time. We are individuals, but then coming together collectively, we can create something different.
I mean, we can all have an idea that we start with. But when you engage in real conversation with, let’s say it’s a site-specific work with other people from that place, with people who, you know, let’s say if we talk about the Venetian Lagoon, where I’ve, I’ve done a major project called Red Regatta, you know, finding others that were deeply connected to that waterway and drawing on my experience, my own long personal experience with that waterway, brought us to new places.
Abby: So, talk to us, you mentioned Red Regatta first, so I’m going to piggyback on that because it’s a phenomenal project. Can you sort of describe to our listeners the end result of what Regatta could be expressed visually? And then sort of the pathways and the different collaborations with the different groups who helped bring Red Regatta to the water.
Melissa: So Red Regatta was an unprecedented independent public intervention. It took the form of four large scale regattas that activated different areas of the Venetian Lagoon in Italy. The vela al terzo sailboats are a traditional wooden type of boat and we sailed together. Each boat had its own set of hand-painted red sails, so every sailboat was hoisted with hand-painted red sails.
This project took place in 2019. It was presented in collaboration with the Associazione Vela al Terzo Venezia, which is the sailing club of this type of boat that is in Venice, and a team of over 250 Venetian and international collaborating individuals and partners, many who have never worked together before.
And so, why red? Why these red sails that were hand-painted for each boat? Well, my idea was that red is a color that has tremendous emotional range. It represents life force, passion, energy, but also alarm and warning. So just imagine 52 Venetian traditional vela al terzo sailboats sailing through the green blue waters of the Venetian lagoon in unison against the backdrop of the city to draw attention to so many of the issues that this waterway and that Venetians are facing, whether it’s climate change, rising seas, ever increasing motorboat traffic, the problem with the cruise ships, the ever shrinking Venetian population.
One other thing that I want to mention about these boats is these vela al terzo boats, they are so beautifully adapted to the city of Venice. You can raise your sales and sail through the Venetian Lagoon, or you can lower the sails, take the mast down, and then row your way under the bridges through the city. So, what an amazing, adapted perfect tradition that needs to be celebrated and moved, and brought forward. Those are the examples that we need, right, to navigate into the future.
Brenda: How on earth, Melissa, do you coordinate and lead a project on that scale? You mentioned that there were so many different groups and individuals. What did that look like?
Melissa: Well, first of all, I had an amazing team which I’d like to give, thanks and call out to. So, I collaborated, like I said, with the Associazione Vela al Terzo Venezia under the helm of Giorgio Righetti, who was the president of the association at the time. He’s since passed on.
And we had deep partnerships with the Comune di Venezia, all kinds of organizations in Venice, Oceana, the United Nations, Sailors for the Sea. I mean, it went on and on nationally and internationally, the Peggy Guggenheim Collection. We did Ocean Space. I mean, I could list so many, they’re all on the website, but I really celebrate the community.
And, I think that, you know, the, yes, I mean, there are many people when you start a project like this that will tell you that it can’t happen. I got a lot of that, like, no, this is impossible. It’s never going to work. But when you also have people who look at the project and say, wow, this would be amazing if we could do this, let’s, let’s try and then you just keep putting one foot in front of the other in dedication. You have to be incredibly resilient.
There’s an ancient Arab proverb that I always use, which is throw your heart out in front of you and run ahead to catch it. And that is basically what happened. So, there were many stages. There were many moments of like tearing your hair out like, oh my gosh, are we actually going to be able to do this? Actually, it was my project manager, Marcella Ferrari, when we were painting the sails.
She said, you’re going to look back on this and you’re going to just be astounded. And I was like so in it, I was like, okay, yeah, but we have to mix this color to go with it. Like, I was right, I was back in the details, you know? And now I look at it and even talking about it, you can probably hear in my voice like I actually, I’m kind of in awe of the fact that we did it.
I also think that all projects have divine timing. and the project timing of this project was really specific because I raised all the money for this project myself, like I do for a lot of my projects, my big projects, like Constellation and this one, I have had to fundraise and raise the money for these projects independently because I haven’t found another way to do them. And so, that is a huge responsibility. Fundraising is not my favorite part, but it’s part of what goes with, you know, something like this. And, you know, somebody said, oh, you know, we, we don’t have enough money yet, like, we really should, because the sails were expensive, and I gave them all to the sailors. They all kept, I gave them to them to keep.
So, somebody said, oh, you know, we don’t have enough money yet and we should postpone it. And I said, we absolutely cannot postpone it. I was convinced. I was like, no, it has to be now. And it was just like bigger than me, like it was just, has to be now. And then what happened right after was a series of catastrophic events.
A cruise ship, like a month or, a month or so after we sailed the last regatta in September 2019, a cruise ship crashed into the Fondamenta in Venice, something we were talking about. It’s like cruise ships in Venice. And then they had the worst flooding since the 60s, you probably remember the dramatic flooding of Venice that year. Like, you know, it was horrendous. It was like the whole city was destroyed. And then Covid. So, if it hadn’t happened then, we probably wouldn’t have done it.
Brenda: You are definitely in sync with, I’m sure, a lot of different forces, because what an uplifting, positive time of beauty you created in the city. And, you know, thinking about your connectivity with things. Let’s talk a little bit more about how your work incorporates and resonates with nature. So, you’ve mentioned deep listening. It’s, something that you encourage, deep, deep listening to nature as you create.
And this is really, it’s related to a lot of movements that we’re hearing about now, such as, you know, being very mindful, highly present, fostering deep connectivity through mindfulness and active listening. Tell us what deep listening means to you. What can we learn from it?
Melissa: I think that the deep listening is not just to, well, it’s to nature, but it’s also to each other. So how can we come together to address these urgent local and global issues creatively and collaboratively? This is the question that I think about. Like, you know, and I would say that seeking out authentic listening collaboration is so important because there’s a lot of people that talk about collaboration, but, you know, when you’re having a conversation, how much are you listening and how much are you talking? You know, also with the non-human, so that’s, you know, the other, I never know what to call that, it’s like other beings, other forces, because I always think of these projects as being collaborations with other people and communities, but also with the elements.
Abby: Yeah.
Melissa: And with the natural forces. I mean, you can’t sail a regatta without the wind and the water. But I think meaningful shared experiences that are designed to have lasting positive impact, it’s like if we shift the perspective and think about how to have these conversations in ways that are going to bring people together in joy and wonder with lasting positive impact, which I really build the projects around, all of them, then, you know, there’s a lot we can do with that.
Abby: So, some of your, you work in what I’d describe as unconventional places. For our listeners, what do you think, Melissa, some of the pros and cons are, when considering creating these larger public works?
Melissa: I think it’s really important that you really have an authentic relationship to the place. Like I make work where I live or where I have lived, or where I know people. Sometimes I go into new communities, but only with a tremendous amount of time with immersing myself in that, like, I am not going to be the artist who drops into a place and, you know, says, okay, let’s just make this, because it’s not going to have the same relationship to the place.
You know, I need that time to connect. Heart connect. It’s about heart connection. So, you know, a project in the Hudson River. I live on the shores of the Hudson River, a project in Venice, I lived in Venice. I have a deep community there. There’s a lot of places I haven’t been that I’d love to do projects, but it would take time to have a, build a relationship, you know.
One site that I take with me and I probably could do, you know, would be engaged to do a project anywhere there is this condition is, I am a person who is incredibly drawn to estuaries. Estuaries are places where, you know, as we know, there is saltwater and freshwater mixing. There are often marshes. There’s incredible biodiversity in those places. And they’re places that are between places that are very important in the world. And so, I do think I could go to any estuary and find my footing pretty quickly.
But that’s just like I have a very natural draw to that. But I think that if someone is, you know, planning to work site-specifically, I just hope they would do the work to really find out what is that place.
Abby: I do just want to build on a wonderful estuary where I grew up. I grew up on the Wirral, which is north of Wales and south of Liverpool. It’s a little peninsula there, so there’s an estuary which is now getting silted up. About 100 years ago boats would go up and down. So, from Parkgate is the name of the, of the town there, you can see over this beautiful estuary at all the biodiversity, over the River Dee there to Wales, and it would be an amazing place for you to do something.
Brenda: Put it on your list.
Melissa, let’s talk about time. A lot of your work connects the past, the present and the future. Why is this theme so central to your work, and do you ever think about permanence?
Melissa: I don’t think there’s any such thing as permanence. I also think we have to really get into the concept that time is not linear. It is more of a spiral, and we can really learn from the past. We can learn what shouldn’t be repeated, we can learn what is really sustainable and in right relationship to the planet we live on.
Many indigenous communities have the wisdom of that, and we need to remember what our interconnected relationship is there. So, I think that my connection of past, present and future is really like, what can we bring forward, like in the case of Red Regatta, bringing forward this tradition that is in harmony with the environment that it’s based in, is a good idea.
So, you know, we’ll think about that in connecting past, present and future. And also, you know, really, I love involve being the youth in the projects. I love involving, like I do family workshops and I involve people of all ages in the projects because we are all in this together and the youth are the future. And so, we really have to be including them in what’s happening and give agency again, inspire agency.
And that goes back to that theme of like climate fatigue and like, how can we come up with creative ways to navigate forward that are going to be in the interest of everyone eventually, hopefully.
Abby: Do you think we, we as humans ever learn? Because it seems to me that if we could all just look at the past, then we wouldn’t even be making some of the mistakes we’re currently making, let alone all the ones are going to be making in the future. Do you ever feel a little like this is just part of being human, and we’re constantly going to repeat the same mistakes?
Melissa: It goes a little bit to this idea of disconnection. I think that our culture and capitalism relies heavily on distraction, distraction from core values and the connection to the environment. And so, to remember that in any way we can is going to be a positive thing.
Brenda: Melissa, a lot of artists are talking about sustainability. When we say sustainability, what do you translate that to mean in your work?
Melissa: I think that sustainability is finding ways to be and to like, it brings up a lot of verbs for me, like, actually, like action, like how can we be sustainable not just for the humans, but for all of the beings that live on the planet. So, for example, you know, if we make decisions based on what’s best for everyone, that’s sustainability.
I mean, that’s the way I think about it. So, if something is in, as I was saying before, right, relationship to, you know, nature, to all the beings that are human and, and more than human, there’s all different ways of saying it. I mean, we’re never, but we can’t make any gross generalizations about what’s right for everyone. But I think that’s the thing that has to really be part of the conversation. and that’s one of the reasons I really care about beauty. Beauty in the projects is because beauty brings heart connection, and you don’t need language.
Abby: So, if you’re using beauty to move people, to make them rethink nature, why is nature on its own not enough for people? Why does it not connect naturally to us, do you think? Why are we happy living in our cement jungle?
Melissa: I think again, it goes back to distraction and the phones and the smartphones and the whole culture being in that, people aren’t, you know, are really in that. I know it’s been a useful tool. I’m not someone who is against technology, but I think we really need to think about the impacts that it’s had on people and how they’re connecting to the world that they are in.
Like, for example, when I was doing this project called Constellation. Constellation was a large-scale project around the ruins of Bannerman’s Castle on Pollepel Island in the Hudson River. Every evening as the sun went down, these starry lights emerged one by one with the stars in the night sky, and they created a new constellation connecting past and present, light and dark, heaven and earth. And it references a Lenape belief about Opi Temakan which is the “White Road” or the “Milky Way” connecting this world with the next.
So, what this was, was I mounted on this island 40 to 80ft poles, and at the top of each pole was a solar powered LED., so you would see this kind of vertical rhythm of these poles during the day. And then as the sun went down, the light would fade and the poles would disappear and these starry lights would come on one by one in the night sky and mix with the stars, actual stars and the moon and connect you back to this larger sense of this landscape. And out of the, just the narrative of this folly, of this Bannerman’s Castle, which was a, built by an Army surplus dealer, a Scottish immigrant, in the turn of the century who kind of turned it into an advertisement.
It’s like a folly. So started, and a lot of it has fallen down, which is why it’s kind of a ruin. And so, it’s part of the New York State Parks Department, Hudson Highlands State Park. So, going back into that site and bringing that connection to the larger landscape, we did boat tours all the time. I collaborated with the Bannerman Castle Trust to do these boat tours, which would bring people out on to the river in the evening, which hardly anybody does, and go to see the stars come on.
And so, one experience that I had that was so moving and I would, I will never forget it, was every time I did an artist led tour, which was often I would experience the same thing, which was we would have this, the public on the boat. And every evening as the sun went down and these points started to light one by one, over the 15 minutes or so that they lit, people would see one come on, somebody would say, there’s the first one or whatever, and then everybody would get out their phones and start to try to take pictures.
But it was night time on the river, and these were solar powered points of light like stars, so you couldn’t capture it very well with the phone, so you had no choice but to put your phone down, put it back in your pocket or your bag and just be there with each other and the smell of the river and the wind on your face, breeze or whatever it was. Sometimes, you know, and different phases of the moon and everyone would stop talking. Or if they talked, they would just whisper. It was like being in a cathedral or something. It was like being really there and present and connected, and it was incredible. So that was a gift.
Abby: So be in the moment. Put the phone down, be present.
Brenda: And listen.
Abby: Well. Thank you, Melissa, for joining us today. Yeah, thanks for sharing your work, the tenacity needed to create these projects and, the importance of nature for all of us and how at our core, we’re very much still part of the world we live in, dependent on it and need to take care of it. So, thank you so much for sharing today.
Melissa: Thank you.
Abby: And thanks to everyone who tuned in today. If you enjoyed it, subscribe for more episodes of Matters of Experience on Spotify or Apple. Please leave a rating and a review and share with a friend. See you next time!
Brenda: Thank you Melissa. Thank you everyone!
[Music]
Producer: Matters of Experience is produced by Lorem Ipsum Corp and recorded at Hangar Studios. Tune in next time for more fun discussions about experience design.
Creating with Nature with Melissa McGill
What is an Experience? with Tim McNeil
His recent publication “The Exhibition and Experience Design Handbook” pulls from his extensive experience as an educator, designer, and contributor to building three major museums: the J. Paul Getty Museum at the Getty Center and Getty Villa, and the Jan Shrem and Maria Manetti Shrem Museum of Art.
He has been recognized for design excellence by the Society for Experiential Graphic Design, the University and College Designers Association, the American Alliance of Museums, and the International Museum Design and Communication Association. Tim is a frequent speaker and writer on museum and design issues. His award-winning design work is archived at the Getty Research Institute and has been featured in multiple publications.
Tim McNeil | University of California Davis | blooloop 50 2023
The Exhibition and Experience Design Handbook – 9781538157985
The Transformational Impact of Exhibition and Experience Design – SEGD
[Music]
Abby: Welcome to Matters of Experience. My name is Abigail Honor.
Brenda: Hello, this is Brenda Cowan.
Abby: This is produced by Lorem Ipsum, an experience design company headquartered in New York, and our podcast explores the creativity, innovation and psychology driving designed experiences and encounters. Hello to anybody listening for the first time, and welcome back to our regular listeners. So, Brenda, today we’re talking with a guest Blooloop named among the top 50 Museum Influencers for 2023, who recently published the Exhibition and Experience Design Handbook, which really is a must read and reference book for all designers. I cannot encourage you enough to go online and buy it. It’s an amazing guide for our practice. And if you haven’t guessed yet, we’d like to welcome to today’s show, Tim McNeil. Tim, welcome.
Tim: Thanks for that great introduction, Abby. Hi, Brenda. It’s so, so great to be here. So, admire what you’re doing and how your show has contributed to the field. So, thanks for having me.
Brenda: Well, Tim, I love your book. And, you know, it’s funny, I remember hanging out with you weeks before Covid changed the world, and you were sharing with me your journey of writing this book, and I was so excited in those early days for what was to come and, Tim, you so delivered.
Tim: Thank you.
Brenda: So, like me, you’re an educator. You are a professor of design. You are the director of the Design Museum at the University of California, Davis. And before that, you spent 30 years as a practicing exhibition designer working for major museums like the J. Paul Getty. Tim, what are the most vital elements from your years of practice that you make sure to pass on to your students in the classroom?
Tim: Yeah, no, I think, I mean, the key one is collaboration. In the classroom, I always encourage students to work together, because, you know, that’s how, you know, exhibition teams work, right? We don’t do anything in isolation. A level of, I suppose, installing in my in students that ambiguity is okay, because often when we’re working on any project, right, we don’t know where things are going to go sometimes.
We’re going to pitch ideas. We’re going to try and, you know, conceive of things to get buy-in from various people. And sometimes that works and sometimes that doesn’t. Sometimes we come up with an amazing design for something and it gets critiqued, it gets changed, it has to move on. And I think for, in the classroom space, that’s sometimes quite difficult for students to grapple with, that they could spend a long time on something and then it may not actually get, you know, realized in the same way that they envisioned it.
And the other is just creativity. I’m a huge believer in creativity, that that is the one key thing that makes designers, designers, right, that we can have all the amazing tools we want in the world, but if we don’t have a creative response or something unique to present that information or those ideas, and we can’t think of things in a highly creative way, then that doesn’t do much.
So, to me, the designer brings this level of creativity to any project and thinks about things in a way that maybe has never been thought of before.
Brenda: So, this is something that is, it’s actually it’s been a little bit of a debate. Now, I’m a firm believer that you can teach creativity, or I should say that you can foster its growth and foster its presence within an individual. What do you think—
Abby: Oh, hang on, this is going to be interesting.
Brenda: Tim, can you teach creativity?
Tim: I think you can teach tools to be more creative, whether those will all get to the end result you want, not for everybody. I mean I make a point in the classes I teach, we do warm-up exercises that are about just thinking freely and about making what I call, by associations. So, taking one thing and taking another and trying to put them together and seeing what you get.
So, there are tools you can use, you know, and there are lots of, you know, resources for this about how to be creative. But I think it’s practicing that so that you have a set of tools to rely on that help you. And also, part of that creative process is multiplicity of ideas, right? Not settling on one but exploring the full gamut of options. So yeah, I think you can offer the tools and ways of becoming more creative.
Brenda: Build the muscle.
Abby: Yeah, I totally agree with that, and just touching on one other thing that you mentioned, which is really important to me, is this idea of the multiplicity of ideas and that generating new versions and different versions, because settling on the first idea, I think, doesn’t mean that that idea has had that robust testing that needs to happen in the ideation process.
That’s the point of evolving ideas and exploring everything. And I think a lot of designers pause, potentially, when they feel like they’ve found it immediately, instead of really continuing to iterate, Tim, so it’s nice to hear that you’re teaching your students that that’s really invaluable, because I think collaboration and iteration are the two things that designers really need to get used to and understand that their idea is to be contributed to a pool of other collaborators, to grow and build something that’s made collectively.
Tim: Completely agree, and I suppose another part of it is originality. And I don’t believe—it’s hard to find anything that’s truly original. So, I wouldn’t go out and say that you can always come with original ideas, but I do think you’re always striving to think about how can you at least improve what’s already there?
Brenda: Innovate.
Abby: Move it forward. Yeah. So, changing our focus for a second, experiences, whatever they are, so from entertainment to cultural events sort of reflect our society which is ever changing. What do you think have been some of the most significant social changes, let’s say in the last decade, and how is our industry addressing them?
Tim: Well, we always talk about technology. Okay. It’s been a big part of this which has really impacted our culture, or at least the way we do things within exhibitions. Also, a big change, right, is, is a focus on, much more on audience, and understanding everyone’s needs. And we’re not there yet with that, but we’re certainly a lot further along than we were.
And I certainly, when I’m teaching and, in my work, always put audience at the forefront, audience and story, actually narrative at the forefront. So, I think that’s the key thing. And also, just an awareness of a complex world that we’re living in and that awareness, and I see it, you know, certainly in my students, in terms of how there’s so much more sort of understanding of the complexity of the world in terms of, you know, the climate crisis, in terms of inclusion and equity, in terms of understanding what everyone around them needs. And then, so I think that’s a, definitely a huge, sort of shift or advancement as well in that area.
Brenda: One of the great things about having students is, is that they are always bringing society to you.
Tim: I always say that I’m learning more from them than I can ever really teach. You know, right? I mean you’re there as a facilitator to get the conversation going and the dialog going, but really they’re learning from each other more than they’re necessary learning from the instructor, and I think that’s key. But I, yeah, I absolutely agree with that.
Brenda: Well, it’s the mark of a really great educator. So, let’s talk about the book again. Just like my graduate program it’s titled Exhibition and Experience Design. What’s the difference between the two in your take, like why is there an and?
Tim: One of the main goals of the book for me was to combine somewhat equally, the sort of history of exhibition and experience making, the theoretical sort of underpinnings of the discipline, and then the more practice based of how do we do it? You know, the, the words we use to describe the field, the way we do things have evolved.
Certainly, the word exhibition is one that, you know, has evolved over time to include so many more things. To me, exhibition, or exhibition as a medium because exhibitions are everywhere and anywhere, right? You can find an exhibition, you know, in, in a street, in a museum, in your home, if you choose to create one. I think whenever we’re staging any kind of environment, we’re creating an exhibition. Experience, of course, is one that’s being used now very loosely within multiple sort of sectors to describe experience making, whether that’s not just within exhibitions but also within, you know, digital media or UI/UX, sort of human centered design, all those other areas too. So, the books attempting to try and, you know, clarify some of that or link these two together, that experiences can happen in many, many places. But the, it’s the, you know, exhibition making is certainly one of the main drivers to how you get there.
Brenda: I’m listening to you, and I’m really appreciating the way, the sort of, the broad way in which you’re really describing experience and the scope that you’re including and in addition to the physical space as well, listening to you, it’s so clear that also when we’re talking about experience, we’re talking about the heart space, we’re talking about emotional experience, we’re talking about intellectual experience in addition to that physical experience, which, right, has been the convention for so long. But now we’re really, really giving, I think, you know, sizable, necessary merit to the, the, the emotional and the intellectual.
Tim: Yeah, very much so. And the book touches on that and goes into sort of the more sort of philosophical sense of what an experience is, as much as you’re saying about the emotional and the more psychological, right, of, of how we, how we have an experience, what does an experience mean. You know, it also touches a lot, right, on memory. Right? What are, what are those moments that we’re creating that we remember? Are those, what’s the, what’s the value in memory to an experience too is of real interest to me because I think when we walk away from experiencing, what do we walk away with? What do we hold on to and what do we let go?
And so, as I think about designing an exhibition, I’m always thinking about this pacing through a space and how these moments, these experiences can be revealed. So, you know, I like to think of it in terms of, you offer an attract to somebody, which then you reveal something, and then you offer a reward. And I think about that a lot in terms of creating experiences. Upfront, you’re pulling people in. You’re then maybe revealing something they’ve not known before or are seeing something for the first time and then rewarding them something at the end.
So, there’s this experience to dissecting it, what are the components of an experience and how do they map onto designing an exhibition?
Abby: That’s really interesting because we think about it in a very similar way in terms of attracting someone, gaining their interest, revealing something new about something they thought they already knew, or a new topic they haven’t seen, and then connecting with them on an emotional and an educational level and an entertaining level, and then providing, I guess, it’s interesting you call it a reward, we always think about it as, and maybe this is because we do a lot of history museums and a lot of heavy subject matter. So, it’s always that space for repose, a place for quiet thought and a place to think. One of the chapters is Once Upon a Timeline. I have mixed relationship with timelines because they are so wonderful in their organization of things for people, but at the same time can be extremely limiting. So can you sort of chat through from a design perspective—
Brenda: Sell Abby on the timeline.
Tim: Okay. And I think that, you know, as you picked up there, the chapters in the book, I try to come up with kind of enticing, should we say more provocative chapters to kind of pull you in, just like you just did then, Abby, with the timeline. Because in some ways, I then refute that the timeline is only one way, of course, of telling a story.
And even the timeline as a concept, right, means different things to different people in different parts of the world. You know, some timelines are linear, many are cyclical, others don’t exist at all. Like the idea that we have a beginning and an end. So, I think that it’s there a bit as a provocation, but also to kind of say it’s a trope, okay, that we’ve used to tell stories for millennia, one that we rely on heavily because it’s kind of easy to do it that way.
You’ve got a beginning, a middle, and an end, or at least you’ve got a linear path to follow. So, the chapter does kind of take that on and looks at well, what does that mean to tell a story? Like if we think about it as being, as linear, how do we think about an experience playing out in different ways as well?
Certainly, I’m interested in, and the chapter picks up on it, in how we move people through a space, and that the movement through the space becomes a storytelling device. It’s not necessarily constructed on time, but more on movement or the journey. So yes, timelines are great, but they offer limitations. And, you know, the sort of chrono thematic approach to an exhibition, right, where you have a timeline as the main construct that ties it all together, but there are these deviations to different themes from it, can be a very powerful way of doing it, so that the thematic approach becomes equally prevalent. And certainly, a thematic division of an exhibition or telling a story allows for a more inclusive story to be told, frankly, you know, the timeline locks you into something that, you know, that is easier, difficult to move or, or to introduce other things to it.
Brenda: Well, the great thing about that kind of approach is that it, I think, enables the visitor to sort of be in, if you will, or consider a particular moment in time, and then draw it in relationship to their present day. Anyway, I’m very pleased with the Once Upon a Timeline chapter. I’m with you, Tim.
Abby: There was, well I do also—
Tim: We’ll convince you. Abby.
Abby: Yeah, yeah. I do agree that, that the challenge maybe with the timeline is, is how do you make it relevant to the audience at the time? And Tim, you talk a lot about it. I think it’s through the stories you tell, because at the end of the day, we’re all humans, and these stories often have relatable themes within them, whether it’s relating to a monster or relating to somebody who’s wonderfully triumphant. I think it’s important to make sure that the way that we then tell those stories resonate with the audience.
Tim: I think the timeline is a good starting point often, but then it’s good to challenge that, and then it gets you to then think about things in a different way. But it’s somewhere that, it’s an easy place to maybe begin.
Abby: Yeah, I completely agree. So, you know, there is a call to action in the book. What do you mean by that?
Tim: The process of designing an experience or an exhibition is very much rooted in a design process that borrows from architecture to some degree, right? We go through a phased approach of concept development, detailing, implementation, and it’s very fixed. So, the call to action is, hey, do we have to always design an exhibition this way? Could we come at it from a different approach?
Could we think about an exhibition more from, I suppose it is the more emotional but more, again, the creative side of it. But also, can this methodology be mapped onto other disciplines in other areas? Because I feel that within the digital realm, within developing UI/UX, types of experiences, it’s the same thing we’re doing. We’re creating a digital space rather than the physical one, but we’re still thinking about some of the same criteria, such as staging, such as creating wow moments such as thinking about, you know, our audience is key to that too.
So, I was really wanting to use exhibition design and that process as a way of tackling other things. And the other part of the call to action is that I feel that exhibition design is the most transdisciplinary of the design fields, more so than architecture, more so than theater design or other areas, because it simply brings together so many different design areas and people from other disciplines to create these kind of experiences.
So, the call to action is, hey, we need to acknowledge this field. The profile of the field needs elevating. I feel it, it’s playing a role within society and within culture that it often doesn’t get credit for and has been doing for a long, long time. And that’s why I was very focused on the history in the book of when did we begin to sort of professionally design exhibitions, experiences and look what we’ve managed to do and look where we’ve got to. So, the call to action really is also about, hey, look, this field means business. Pay attention and look at the great work that exhibition makers are doing and the influence they’re having within the field.
Abby: Well, no, I think it’s super important. And that’s why Brenda and I started this podcast. We felt exactly the same way, that we need people to start acknowledging this field and stop calling architects to do our work or thinking that they’re the ones that they should be hiring to design exhibitions. I can’t tell you, Tim, how many times I’m handed an exhibition design done by the architect of the building. And it’s, you know, it’s frustrating.
Brenda: Thinking much more expansively about the role of the curator, or perhaps less expansively about the role of the curator. You know, I just keep thinking, as I’m listening to you about things such as film and the process of filmmaking, the, you know, hordes of people and disciplines that are involved in crafting a film, and also the fact that what a delight when you are able to work with filmmakers within the exhibition team, when you’re able to work with journalists in the exhibition team, authors in the exhibition team, in addition to all of the, you know, the myriad of design disciplines.
Let’s expand upon this a little bit and let’s talk about other members of the creative team. And I’m thinking about engaging audiences, and I’m thinking about engaging local communities. What do you think about how it is that engaging with local people, local communities can make a difference in exhibition creation?
Tim: There’s a class that I teach called Narrative Environments, and it’s completely focused on working with local community. So, we spend ten weeks working with the local organization, you know, within the region where I’m based, and I let it evolve through the project. I don’t have a, necessarily a idea of what it’s going to end up being in the end.
And I tell the students upfront about this, too, that we’re going to do this collaborative project with the community and we’re going to see where it goes and what happens and learn as we go. And I love this class because it’s something that I wish I could have done more in professional practice, where we don’t get so hung up on what the end result should be, but that we work more open-endedly with community to let everyone be part of the process, right.
And it’s also coming on from a research project that I’m involved in at the moment. I’m working with a colleague in London, Tricia Austin, on this, and the two of us are currently hosting forums. We’ve done seven of them so far with designers all over the world to better understand if the exhibition design medium can be an agent of change, can truly be transformative.
But what’s come through from those conversations time and time again? The projects that many of the designers we’ve, you know, had participate have been ones on a very local level that have addressed, projects that are, you know, very much connected to cultural aspects or geographic local region that they’re working in. And these all involve community, about bringing people into the conversation and working with them very, very closely.
And it’s been interesting that many of the participants in these forums, they’re the projects they want to talk about, too, because they feel those are the most, been the most successful, when they have been able to engage community partners in a meaningful way. So, it says a lot about, well, okay, that’s, there’s the satisfaction level there, too, of feeling like the project really worked, and they’re very proud of the result when they were able to have this more reciprocal relationship with the audience.
Abby: Just to chime in, I was lucky, fortunate enough to be part of one of those forums, and I think that was a great opportunity for us. I find that it’s very difficult to come together with peers and discuss our projects and workshop together and move forward as an industry. There’s a couple of great places to do that, but I really felt it was very intimate.
We were sharing specific projects. We all had a set amount of time and then the feedback was just fantastic. It was candid, it was informed, like it was just a really wonderful moment.
Brenda: What I love about what you’re doing with your forums is working towards the idea of transformation, and I think creating illustrative examples of what transformation actually looks like. And I think that, you know, a lot of scholars are familiar with the idea of transformation and its connections with, for example, wellbeing and some of the recent work that I was engaged with really looking at the role of transformation in the flourishing museum and in the flourishing exhibition experience.
And, but there’s, there’s a but which is there isn’t, I think anyway, enough example out there of what it really, really looks like. And doing that on a global level, Tim, is, it’s brilliant and it’s important. So, so thank you for doing that.
Tim: Thanks. Yeah, I mean just to sort of give a little bit of context to these, the title of the forums is really called The Transformational Impact of Exhibition Design. And that’s the reason for having these forums and inviting designers to come and talk about projects they’ve worked on that address, you know, for instance, climate crisis, social justice, looking at social polarization, and issues around technology and ethics are some of the key ones that we’re sort of interested in.
And also, just how many of the, you know, the designers from different parts of the world have things to contribute in all of those areas, but are also very specific to where they are, geographically, you know, and what they’re facing sort of, you know, on a more local level. And that’s been interesting to see too. But the passion and enthusiasm for talking about this is, it’s contagious. It’s been, it’s been really great.
Abby: So, I have a question for Brenda and you, Tim, in terms of, it’s all leading towards, again, our profession and highlighting our profession. Why has it taking us so long, like what are we doing wrong?
Brenda: Why is it that folks call the architect first and then much later on in the process, the exhibition team is brought in to sort of fill in the box? What’s up with that? That convention should be long gone by now.
Tim: Absolutely. I agree, and I’ve also, Brenda, thank you for your contribution, for your books as well because part of this is, right, is building up a body of theory or writing to help substantiate the field, right? That’s a big part of it too. And in my surveys of looking at what’s out there in terms of publications about our field, there’s so few.
But if you look at architecture, you could fill entire library with it. So that says a lot too, about the maybe, there hasn’t been the opportunity to be as critical about our field. And I mean that through, you know, dissecting it and looking at it and writing about it than we could have been. And some of that is because it goes back to, right, the, the, a more curatorial approach to exhibition making. That certainly has a place and is well understood, but again, the role of the designer and working with the curator or with the exhibition team is less understood or less valued. Hence, again, what we’re doing here, right, is to make a mark on that.
Abby: That’s a call to action, then, in a way, Tim. Call to action to our listeners.
Brenda: You know, as I see it, it’s, I mean, it’s like a love affair. It really is. And in every possible way, you know, I think that embracing the idea of sharing your expertise or maybe even more importantly, sharing your questions, through whatever the medium is, if it is, if it is a podcast or if it is a book, or if it is a research project and, you know, any kind of publication whatsoever, I think that sort of building towards this, you know, critical mass, I think, as you’re thinking, Tim, everybody who can contribute the questions that they have about our field and to explore those questions and to enable themselves as best as possible to fall in love with something, no matter how small or quotidian or large and philosophical. I think that the more we are enabled to allow ourselves and give ourselves permission to fall in love with just one aspect, if not many, about what it is that we’re doing, and then to produce something that illustrates that passion and the wonder about it, then I think we’re going to see more and more and more of these kinds of contributions.
Tim: Absolutely.
Abby: Well, thank you so much, Tim. I really hope our listeners enjoyed all the facets of our conversation as much as I did. This was inspiring, thought provoking, provocative. So, a huge thanks, Tim, for joining us today and sharing your experiences.
Tim: Oh, you’re absolutely welcome. It’s been really fun. Thanks for having me on the show.
Abby: And thanks to everyone who tuned in today. If you enjoyed it, subscribe for more episodes of Matters of Experience on Spotify or Apple. Please leave a rating and a review and share with a friend. See you next time!
Brenda: Take care everyone!
[Music]
Producer: Matters of Experience is produced by Lorem Ipsum Corp and recorded at Hangar Studios. Tune in next time for more fun discussions about experience design.
His recent publication “The Exhibition and Experience Design Handbook” pulls from his extensive experience as an educator, designer, and contributor to building three major museums: the J. Paul Getty Museum at the Getty Center and Getty Villa, and the Jan Shrem and Maria Manetti Shrem Museum of Art.
He has been recognized for design excellence by the Society for Experiential Graphic Design, the University and College Designers Association, the American Alliance of Museums, and the International Museum Design and Communication Association. Tim is a frequent speaker and writer on museum and design issues. His award-winning design work is archived at the Getty Research Institute and has been featured in multiple publications.
Tim McNeil | University of California Davis | blooloop 50 2023
The Exhibition and Experience Design Handbook – 9781538157985
The Transformational Impact of Exhibition and Experience Design – SEGD
[Music]
Abby: Welcome to Matters of Experience. My name is Abigail Honor.
Brenda: Hello, this is Brenda Cowan.
Abby: This is produced by Lorem Ipsum, an experience design company headquartered in New York, and our podcast explores the creativity, innovation and psychology driving designed experiences and encounters. Hello to anybody listening for the first time, and welcome back to our regular listeners. So, Brenda, today we’re talking with a guest Blooloop named among the top 50 Museum Influencers for 2023, who recently published the Exhibition and Experience Design Handbook, which really is a must read and reference book for all designers. I cannot encourage you enough to go online and buy it. It’s an amazing guide for our practice. And if you haven’t guessed yet, we’d like to welcome to today’s show, Tim McNeil. Tim, welcome.
Tim: Thanks for that great introduction, Abby. Hi, Brenda. It’s so, so great to be here. So, admire what you’re doing and how your show has contributed to the field. So, thanks for having me.
Brenda: Well, Tim, I love your book. And, you know, it’s funny, I remember hanging out with you weeks before Covid changed the world, and you were sharing with me your journey of writing this book, and I was so excited in those early days for what was to come and, Tim, you so delivered.
Tim: Thank you.
Brenda: So, like me, you’re an educator. You are a professor of design. You are the director of the Design Museum at the University of California, Davis. And before that, you spent 30 years as a practicing exhibition designer working for major museums like the J. Paul Getty. Tim, what are the most vital elements from your years of practice that you make sure to pass on to your students in the classroom?
Tim: Yeah, no, I think, I mean, the key one is collaboration. In the classroom, I always encourage students to work together, because, you know, that’s how, you know, exhibition teams work, right? We don’t do anything in isolation. A level of, I suppose, installing in my in students that ambiguity is okay, because often when we’re working on any project, right, we don’t know where things are going to go sometimes.
We’re going to pitch ideas. We’re going to try and, you know, conceive of things to get buy-in from various people. And sometimes that works and sometimes that doesn’t. Sometimes we come up with an amazing design for something and it gets critiqued, it gets changed, it has to move on. And I think for, in the classroom space, that’s sometimes quite difficult for students to grapple with, that they could spend a long time on something and then it may not actually get, you know, realized in the same way that they envisioned it.
And the other is just creativity. I’m a huge believer in creativity, that that is the one key thing that makes designers, designers, right, that we can have all the amazing tools we want in the world, but if we don’t have a creative response or something unique to present that information or those ideas, and we can’t think of things in a highly creative way, then that doesn’t do much.
So, to me, the designer brings this level of creativity to any project and thinks about things in a way that maybe has never been thought of before.
Brenda: So, this is something that is, it’s actually it’s been a little bit of a debate. Now, I’m a firm believer that you can teach creativity, or I should say that you can foster its growth and foster its presence within an individual. What do you think—
Abby: Oh, hang on, this is going to be interesting.
Brenda: Tim, can you teach creativity?
Tim: I think you can teach tools to be more creative, whether those will all get to the end result you want, not for everybody. I mean I make a point in the classes I teach, we do warm-up exercises that are about just thinking freely and about making what I call, by associations. So, taking one thing and taking another and trying to put them together and seeing what you get.
So, there are tools you can use, you know, and there are lots of, you know, resources for this about how to be creative. But I think it’s practicing that so that you have a set of tools to rely on that help you. And also, part of that creative process is multiplicity of ideas, right? Not settling on one but exploring the full gamut of options. So yeah, I think you can offer the tools and ways of becoming more creative.
Brenda: Build the muscle.
Abby: Yeah, I totally agree with that, and just touching on one other thing that you mentioned, which is really important to me, is this idea of the multiplicity of ideas and that generating new versions and different versions, because settling on the first idea, I think, doesn’t mean that that idea has had that robust testing that needs to happen in the ideation process.
That’s the point of evolving ideas and exploring everything. And I think a lot of designers pause, potentially, when they feel like they’ve found it immediately, instead of really continuing to iterate, Tim, so it’s nice to hear that you’re teaching your students that that’s really invaluable, because I think collaboration and iteration are the two things that designers really need to get used to and understand that their idea is to be contributed to a pool of other collaborators, to grow and build something that’s made collectively.
Tim: Completely agree, and I suppose another part of it is originality. And I don’t believe—it’s hard to find anything that’s truly original. So, I wouldn’t go out and say that you can always come with original ideas, but I do think you’re always striving to think about how can you at least improve what’s already there?
Brenda: Innovate.
Abby: Move it forward. Yeah. So, changing our focus for a second, experiences, whatever they are, so from entertainment to cultural events sort of reflect our society which is ever changing. What do you think have been some of the most significant social changes, let’s say in the last decade, and how is our industry addressing them?
Tim: Well, we always talk about technology. Okay. It’s been a big part of this which has really impacted our culture, or at least the way we do things within exhibitions. Also, a big change, right, is, is a focus on, much more on audience, and understanding everyone’s needs. And we’re not there yet with that, but we’re certainly a lot further along than we were.
And I certainly, when I’m teaching and, in my work, always put audience at the forefront, audience and story, actually narrative at the forefront. So, I think that’s the key thing. And also, just an awareness of a complex world that we’re living in and that awareness, and I see it, you know, certainly in my students, in terms of how there’s so much more sort of understanding of the complexity of the world in terms of, you know, the climate crisis, in terms of inclusion and equity, in terms of understanding what everyone around them needs. And then, so I think that’s a, definitely a huge, sort of shift or advancement as well in that area.
Brenda: One of the great things about having students is, is that they are always bringing society to you.
Tim: I always say that I’m learning more from them than I can ever really teach. You know, right? I mean you’re there as a facilitator to get the conversation going and the dialog going, but really they’re learning from each other more than they’re necessary learning from the instructor, and I think that’s key. But I, yeah, I absolutely agree with that.
Brenda: Well, it’s the mark of a really great educator. So, let’s talk about the book again. Just like my graduate program it’s titled Exhibition and Experience Design. What’s the difference between the two in your take, like why is there an and?
Tim: One of the main goals of the book for me was to combine somewhat equally, the sort of history of exhibition and experience making, the theoretical sort of underpinnings of the discipline, and then the more practice based of how do we do it? You know, the, the words we use to describe the field, the way we do things have evolved.
Certainly, the word exhibition is one that, you know, has evolved over time to include so many more things. To me, exhibition, or exhibition as a medium because exhibitions are everywhere and anywhere, right? You can find an exhibition, you know, in, in a street, in a museum, in your home, if you choose to create one. I think whenever we’re staging any kind of environment, we’re creating an exhibition. Experience, of course, is one that’s being used now very loosely within multiple sort of sectors to describe experience making, whether that’s not just within exhibitions but also within, you know, digital media or UI/UX, sort of human centered design, all those other areas too. So, the books attempting to try and, you know, clarify some of that or link these two together, that experiences can happen in many, many places. But the, it’s the, you know, exhibition making is certainly one of the main drivers to how you get there.
Brenda: I’m listening to you, and I’m really appreciating the way, the sort of, the broad way in which you’re really describing experience and the scope that you’re including and in addition to the physical space as well, listening to you, it’s so clear that also when we’re talking about experience, we’re talking about the heart space, we’re talking about emotional experience, we’re talking about intellectual experience in addition to that physical experience, which, right, has been the convention for so long. But now we’re really, really giving, I think, you know, sizable, necessary merit to the, the, the emotional and the intellectual.
Tim: Yeah, very much so. And the book touches on that and goes into sort of the more sort of philosophical sense of what an experience is, as much as you’re saying about the emotional and the more psychological, right, of, of how we, how we have an experience, what does an experience mean. You know, it also touches a lot, right, on memory. Right? What are, what are those moments that we’re creating that we remember? Are those, what’s the, what’s the value in memory to an experience too is of real interest to me because I think when we walk away from experiencing, what do we walk away with? What do we hold on to and what do we let go?
And so, as I think about designing an exhibition, I’m always thinking about this pacing through a space and how these moments, these experiences can be revealed. So, you know, I like to think of it in terms of, you offer an attract to somebody, which then you reveal something, and then you offer a reward. And I think about that a lot in terms of creating experiences. Upfront, you’re pulling people in. You’re then maybe revealing something they’ve not known before or are seeing something for the first time and then rewarding them something at the end.
So, there’s this experience to dissecting it, what are the components of an experience and how do they map onto designing an exhibition?
Abby: That’s really interesting because we think about it in a very similar way in terms of attracting someone, gaining their interest, revealing something new about something they thought they already knew, or a new topic they haven’t seen, and then connecting with them on an emotional and an educational level and an entertaining level, and then providing, I guess, it’s interesting you call it a reward, we always think about it as, and maybe this is because we do a lot of history museums and a lot of heavy subject matter. So, it’s always that space for repose, a place for quiet thought and a place to think. One of the chapters is Once Upon a Timeline. I have mixed relationship with timelines because they are so wonderful in their organization of things for people, but at the same time can be extremely limiting. So can you sort of chat through from a design perspective—
Brenda: Sell Abby on the timeline.
Tim: Okay. And I think that, you know, as you picked up there, the chapters in the book, I try to come up with kind of enticing, should we say more provocative chapters to kind of pull you in, just like you just did then, Abby, with the timeline. Because in some ways, I then refute that the timeline is only one way, of course, of telling a story.
And even the timeline as a concept, right, means different things to different people in different parts of the world. You know, some timelines are linear, many are cyclical, others don’t exist at all. Like the idea that we have a beginning and an end. So, I think that it’s there a bit as a provocation, but also to kind of say it’s a trope, okay, that we’ve used to tell stories for millennia, one that we rely on heavily because it’s kind of easy to do it that way.
You’ve got a beginning, a middle, and an end, or at least you’ve got a linear path to follow. So, the chapter does kind of take that on and looks at well, what does that mean to tell a story? Like if we think about it as being, as linear, how do we think about an experience playing out in different ways as well?
Certainly, I’m interested in, and the chapter picks up on it, in how we move people through a space, and that the movement through the space becomes a storytelling device. It’s not necessarily constructed on time, but more on movement or the journey. So yes, timelines are great, but they offer limitations. And, you know, the sort of chrono thematic approach to an exhibition, right, where you have a timeline as the main construct that ties it all together, but there are these deviations to different themes from it, can be a very powerful way of doing it, so that the thematic approach becomes equally prevalent. And certainly, a thematic division of an exhibition or telling a story allows for a more inclusive story to be told, frankly, you know, the timeline locks you into something that, you know, that is easier, difficult to move or, or to introduce other things to it.
Brenda: Well, the great thing about that kind of approach is that it, I think, enables the visitor to sort of be in, if you will, or consider a particular moment in time, and then draw it in relationship to their present day. Anyway, I’m very pleased with the Once Upon a Timeline chapter. I’m with you, Tim.
Abby: There was, well I do also—
Tim: We’ll convince you. Abby.
Abby: Yeah, yeah. I do agree that, that the challenge maybe with the timeline is, is how do you make it relevant to the audience at the time? And Tim, you talk a lot about it. I think it’s through the stories you tell, because at the end of the day, we’re all humans, and these stories often have relatable themes within them, whether it’s relating to a monster or relating to somebody who’s wonderfully triumphant. I think it’s important to make sure that the way that we then tell those stories resonate with the audience.
Tim: I think the timeline is a good starting point often, but then it’s good to challenge that, and then it gets you to then think about things in a different way. But it’s somewhere that, it’s an easy place to maybe begin.
Abby: Yeah, I completely agree. So, you know, there is a call to action in the book. What do you mean by that?
Tim: The process of designing an experience or an exhibition is very much rooted in a design process that borrows from architecture to some degree, right? We go through a phased approach of concept development, detailing, implementation, and it’s very fixed. So, the call to action is, hey, do we have to always design an exhibition this way? Could we come at it from a different approach?
Could we think about an exhibition more from, I suppose it is the more emotional but more, again, the creative side of it. But also, can this methodology be mapped onto other disciplines in other areas? Because I feel that within the digital realm, within developing UI/UX, types of experiences, it’s the same thing we’re doing. We’re creating a digital space rather than the physical one, but we’re still thinking about some of the same criteria, such as staging, such as creating wow moments such as thinking about, you know, our audience is key to that too.
So, I was really wanting to use exhibition design and that process as a way of tackling other things. And the other part of the call to action is that I feel that exhibition design is the most transdisciplinary of the design fields, more so than architecture, more so than theater design or other areas, because it simply brings together so many different design areas and people from other disciplines to create these kind of experiences.
So, the call to action is, hey, we need to acknowledge this field. The profile of the field needs elevating. I feel it, it’s playing a role within society and within culture that it often doesn’t get credit for and has been doing for a long, long time. And that’s why I was very focused on the history in the book of when did we begin to sort of professionally design exhibitions, experiences and look what we’ve managed to do and look where we’ve got to. So, the call to action really is also about, hey, look, this field means business. Pay attention and look at the great work that exhibition makers are doing and the influence they’re having within the field.
Abby: Well, no, I think it’s super important. And that’s why Brenda and I started this podcast. We felt exactly the same way, that we need people to start acknowledging this field and stop calling architects to do our work or thinking that they’re the ones that they should be hiring to design exhibitions. I can’t tell you, Tim, how many times I’m handed an exhibition design done by the architect of the building. And it’s, you know, it’s frustrating.
Brenda: Thinking much more expansively about the role of the curator, or perhaps less expansively about the role of the curator. You know, I just keep thinking, as I’m listening to you about things such as film and the process of filmmaking, the, you know, hordes of people and disciplines that are involved in crafting a film, and also the fact that what a delight when you are able to work with filmmakers within the exhibition team, when you’re able to work with journalists in the exhibition team, authors in the exhibition team, in addition to all of the, you know, the myriad of design disciplines.
Let’s expand upon this a little bit and let’s talk about other members of the creative team. And I’m thinking about engaging audiences, and I’m thinking about engaging local communities. What do you think about how it is that engaging with local people, local communities can make a difference in exhibition creation?
Tim: There’s a class that I teach called Narrative Environments, and it’s completely focused on working with local community. So, we spend ten weeks working with the local organization, you know, within the region where I’m based, and I let it evolve through the project. I don’t have a, necessarily a idea of what it’s going to end up being in the end.
And I tell the students upfront about this, too, that we’re going to do this collaborative project with the community and we’re going to see where it goes and what happens and learn as we go. And I love this class because it’s something that I wish I could have done more in professional practice, where we don’t get so hung up on what the end result should be, but that we work more open-endedly with community to let everyone be part of the process, right.
And it’s also coming on from a research project that I’m involved in at the moment. I’m working with a colleague in London, Tricia Austin, on this, and the two of us are currently hosting forums. We’ve done seven of them so far with designers all over the world to better understand if the exhibition design medium can be an agent of change, can truly be transformative.
But what’s come through from those conversations time and time again? The projects that many of the designers we’ve, you know, had participate have been ones on a very local level that have addressed, projects that are, you know, very much connected to cultural aspects or geographic local region that they’re working in. And these all involve community, about bringing people into the conversation and working with them very, very closely.
And it’s been interesting that many of the participants in these forums, they’re the projects they want to talk about, too, because they feel those are the most, been the most successful, when they have been able to engage community partners in a meaningful way. So, it says a lot about, well, okay, that’s, there’s the satisfaction level there, too, of feeling like the project really worked, and they’re very proud of the result when they were able to have this more reciprocal relationship with the audience.
Abby: Just to chime in, I was lucky, fortunate enough to be part of one of those forums, and I think that was a great opportunity for us. I find that it’s very difficult to come together with peers and discuss our projects and workshop together and move forward as an industry. There’s a couple of great places to do that, but I really felt it was very intimate.
We were sharing specific projects. We all had a set amount of time and then the feedback was just fantastic. It was candid, it was informed, like it was just a really wonderful moment.
Brenda: What I love about what you’re doing with your forums is working towards the idea of transformation, and I think creating illustrative examples of what transformation actually looks like. And I think that, you know, a lot of scholars are familiar with the idea of transformation and its connections with, for example, wellbeing and some of the recent work that I was engaged with really looking at the role of transformation in the flourishing museum and in the flourishing exhibition experience.
And, but there’s, there’s a but which is there isn’t, I think anyway, enough example out there of what it really, really looks like. And doing that on a global level, Tim, is, it’s brilliant and it’s important. So, so thank you for doing that.
Tim: Thanks. Yeah, I mean just to sort of give a little bit of context to these, the title of the forums is really called The Transformational Impact of Exhibition Design. And that’s the reason for having these forums and inviting designers to come and talk about projects they’ve worked on that address, you know, for instance, climate crisis, social justice, looking at social polarization, and issues around technology and ethics are some of the key ones that we’re sort of interested in.
And also, just how many of the, you know, the designers from different parts of the world have things to contribute in all of those areas, but are also very specific to where they are, geographically, you know, and what they’re facing sort of, you know, on a more local level. And that’s been interesting to see too. But the passion and enthusiasm for talking about this is, it’s contagious. It’s been, it’s been really great.
Abby: So, I have a question for Brenda and you, Tim, in terms of, it’s all leading towards, again, our profession and highlighting our profession. Why has it taking us so long, like what are we doing wrong?
Brenda: Why is it that folks call the architect first and then much later on in the process, the exhibition team is brought in to sort of fill in the box? What’s up with that? That convention should be long gone by now.
Tim: Absolutely. I agree, and I’ve also, Brenda, thank you for your contribution, for your books as well because part of this is, right, is building up a body of theory or writing to help substantiate the field, right? That’s a big part of it too. And in my surveys of looking at what’s out there in terms of publications about our field, there’s so few.
But if you look at architecture, you could fill entire library with it. So that says a lot too, about the maybe, there hasn’t been the opportunity to be as critical about our field. And I mean that through, you know, dissecting it and looking at it and writing about it than we could have been. And some of that is because it goes back to, right, the, the, a more curatorial approach to exhibition making. That certainly has a place and is well understood, but again, the role of the designer and working with the curator or with the exhibition team is less understood or less valued. Hence, again, what we’re doing here, right, is to make a mark on that.
Abby: That’s a call to action, then, in a way, Tim. Call to action to our listeners.
Brenda: You know, as I see it, it’s, I mean, it’s like a love affair. It really is. And in every possible way, you know, I think that embracing the idea of sharing your expertise or maybe even more importantly, sharing your questions, through whatever the medium is, if it is, if it is a podcast or if it is a book, or if it is a research project and, you know, any kind of publication whatsoever, I think that sort of building towards this, you know, critical mass, I think, as you’re thinking, Tim, everybody who can contribute the questions that they have about our field and to explore those questions and to enable themselves as best as possible to fall in love with something, no matter how small or quotidian or large and philosophical. I think that the more we are enabled to allow ourselves and give ourselves permission to fall in love with just one aspect, if not many, about what it is that we’re doing, and then to produce something that illustrates that passion and the wonder about it, then I think we’re going to see more and more and more of these kinds of contributions.
Tim: Absolutely.
Abby: Well, thank you so much, Tim. I really hope our listeners enjoyed all the facets of our conversation as much as I did. This was inspiring, thought provoking, provocative. So, a huge thanks, Tim, for joining us today and sharing your experiences.
Tim: Oh, you’re absolutely welcome. It’s been really fun. Thanks for having me on the show.
Abby: And thanks to everyone who tuned in today. If you enjoyed it, subscribe for more episodes of Matters of Experience on Spotify or Apple. Please leave a rating and a review and share with a friend. See you next time!
Brenda: Take care everyone!
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Producer: Matters of Experience is produced by Lorem Ipsum Corp and recorded at Hangar Studios. Tune in next time for more fun discussions about experience design.
What is an Experience? with Tim McNeil
Creating an Audience-Centered Experience with Jamie Lawyer
ICOM approves a new museum definition
Mandala Lab, Milan | BAM | 2024 – Rubin Museum of Art
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Abby: Welcome to Matters of Experience, a podcast produced by Lorem Ipsum, an experience design company headquartered in New York City. Our podcast explores the creativity, innovation and psychology driving designed experiences. If you’re new, a hearty welcome and to our regular listeners, thanks for tuning in and supporting our conversation. My name is Abigail Honor.
Brenda: And this is Brenda Cowan.
Abby: So today I am very overly excited to welcome Jamie Lawyer to the show. Jamie is the chief—and the world goes crazy—Jamie is the chief experience officer at the Rubin, where she drives the creation of strategic, creative and empowered experiences at the intersection of visitors, art and museum staff. So, Jamie, we’re neighbors. The Rubin was on the same street as our old office for over a decade, and I’ve been fortunate enough to have enjoyed many, many days with my children, colleagues, either visiting the unbelievable collection or one of the temporary exhibitions, or enjoying the best lunch, I would say, in the neighborhood, or buying a gift at the store.
Brenda: Or the DJ Friday nights, don’t forget that.
Abby: DJ Friday night. It has a special place in my New York experience, and I’m really excited to talk about your many hats, from audience-centered work to your commitment to educating museum professionals and your black belt in taekwondo. Jamie, thank you for joining us today.
Jamie: Thank you so much. I’m excited to be here.
Brenda: Let’s just begin with your origin story. What attracted you to the work that you’re doing now?
Jamie: I was 19 years old the first time I stepped foot inside a museum. I grew up in a small town in Pennsylvania, and as someone who was gay in a very small area, the feeling of belonging was something I was very attuned to. And I also did not have a lot of access to arts and culture where I grew up. And I remember the first time I went to a museum down in Washington, D.C., and stepped foot through the door, and I’m in this gallery, and I look around and I see families. I see two, you know, college age students signing, you know, to one another from Gallaudet University.
And I walk closer to a Jackson Pollock painting and security guard comes up to me and I’m worried. Oh, no, I did something wrong. Not again. And instead of correcting me, he invited me to look closer. And at that moment, I realized the power of that invitation, of what it feels like to belong in a space that can feel so intimidating and you’re so scared and, you’re just trying to figure out how to, how this, how does all this relate to me?
So, for me, that moment of invitation, I felt the power of that, and that’s the feeling that I wanted to pursue and say, hey, you know, people like me belong in museums. And if I don’t feel like I belong, I’m sure there’s plenty of other people that also feel that way too.
Brenda: What a really amazing foundational experience for you to have. That feeling that you described, is that something that is still present with you today, and the work that you do when you pop into the museum for your job and it’s, you know, yet another day. Do you still have this feeling of, is this a place where people can belong?
Jamie: That is the number one thing I am fighting for in every room that I’m in, and every time I talk to a team member, when I think about why do we do this work right? It’s to make people feel like this is a place for them, to make people feel like art and culture can matter, and that you have a right to access it. And to me, what happens when we build that muscle for our audiences, they begin to get curious about culture. They begin to fall in love with cultural experiences, and that’s something we need more of. We need museum fans. We need people to be excited, and we need to make sure that we’re creating spaces where we are caring for our audiences in such a deep way that they walk away with saying, you know what? I had a great experience today. I feel confident the next time I go into the next cultural institution that I access.
Abby: As a chief experience officer, what are you doing on a daily basis? Give me a day in the life of Jamie.
Jamie: My role as Chief Experience Officer at the Rubin, I’m really thinking about the 360-degree view of audience experience. Right? So, for me, that means at the point of entry, I’m making sure that our frontline staff feel supported, that they can welcome people with ease, that they have the knowledge that it takes to form those connections. I’m also intersecting with a lot of the activities that are unfolding in our galleries for interpretation. So again, another bridge between our art, our curators and our audiences. Right? So, in my areas, this is also our docent programs.
So now I’ve, I’ve walked you through, we’re coming through the front door. We’ve moved into our gallery spaces. But it’s also all the words that we’re using. So, for us that’s the language, that’s editorial, that’s the things that we’re publishing, all the ways that we’re speaking with people to make sure that we’re creating something that’s consistent throughout and an area that’s expanded for us and will continue to grow.
That’s also digital content, right? So really being able to push out into different ways to reach audiences. So, for me, a day in my life is really thinking about, those are all the major interaction points just within my team structure. But of course, I’m collaborating with colleagues across the museum to really make sure that they’re keeping visitors at the center of all of their work, because that’s what every department is really designed to do.
We’re supporting audiences, we’re supporting staff who support audience, and we’re trying to find ways to work together and making sure that we’re creating a dynamic experience for them, regardless of what area of the museum we serve.
Brenda: You do some of the most sophisticated audience studies I think I’ve ever seen, looking at audiences, looking at people, thinking about experience, thinking about learning, thinking about play, thinking about what is engagement. And tell us a little bit, give our listeners a little quick hit of the predominant types of audiences that you have identified at the Rubin, because they’re fascinating. And if I recall correctly, right, you’ve got like two predominant types of visitors. Right? And then it gets more complex.
Jamie: So, the audiences that come to the Rubin based on research that we have done in the past, we really are focusing on two major elements, and we really embrace psychographic research, right, what’s motivating people to really come in through the doors? And I would say they break down into simple, but powerful ways. People that want to engage with their head, I want to learn, I want to engage with my intellect and people that engage with their heart, right, I want an emotional experience. I want to feel connected to something bigger than myself. So those are our two audiences that are sharing spaces with one another. They have completely different needs, but they both can really learn from each other and in quite valuable ways.
And when we’re able to really build that foundation for those people who love to experience with their heart, they appreciate when their head gets involved. And there’s people that, you know, I want to learn. I crave something new. They’re even open to learning more about their emotions and ways of feeling connected to someone else. So, while they might seem separate on paper, there’s a beautiful space that they do overlap. And some of our projects are really thinking about where is that overlap, how can we satisfy both of those audiences and making sure that they have a meaningful experience with us and can really learn from each other as part of it?
Brenda: So, you do so much in your role as chief experience officer. What don’t you do that you think you should be? What’s missing?
Jamie: So, the thing that I, I wish for and I spend quite a bit of my, my days doing is really thinking about our employee experience, right? Museums are made of people, and the great work that we do comes from them, and when we invest in them, we will have greater and stronger audience experiences on the outset. When we make it so that their work is easier to do when they can find joy in what they do, when they feel empowered, when they know how to show up in their space and feel celebrated for that, we will have better cultural institutions.
So, for me, that big thing that I spend a lot of time doing that is really thinking about how can I really improve what’s happening on the inside of our cultural institutions within our teams that make people reach out, say, hey, let’s work together on this, hey, you have a valuable perspective to offer. I haven’t heard you speak up today. I know you’re thinking something, so really making sure that all the key voices are heard and represented as part of the conversation, and not only it being something that I’m just deeply passionate about, then making sure it gets baked into our culture and the way of working so that it will stay, and suddenly people will wake up and say, this is how we’ve always been.
Abby: What makes a great colleague? How can you tell somebody is not going to fit culturally, and who’s going to be a good fit?
Jamie: When I think about someone coming into a cultural institution, my approach is I look for potential, right? I look for people who are excited, who are curious, who have passion for what they’re doing, and that’s what matters to me. And of course, we can go into expertise and qualifications and, you know, things like that. But to me, as someone who is curious to learn, who is resilient, who has the ability to pivot, and I’m not just speaking for the, the Rubin Museum, this is for cultural institutions today, because to me, it’s, you can have all of those incredible, necessary hard skills, but so many of those soft skills that we talk about, like that’s to me, when things get tough, those are the things that we’re leaning on. Right? When people value that as part of who they are, that helps them propel forward.
So, someone who’s curious and willing to learn more, and that’s what our art really shows us. We’re dealing with Himalayan art. Our art requires that we stay curious and keep our minds open. And I know on the show you’ve talked a lot about like growth mindsets, right? So being able to have a growth mindset is so essential in the museum field. From my perspective, when I’m thinking about people I want to work with, that’s our way forward. People who are willing to see other ways of doing things, willing to sort of roll our sleeves up and have great conversations and, you know, have the uncomfortable conversations as well. To me, that’s how we move the field forward and also how we find joy in our work.
Abby: You know what’s really interesting, so my mom was the principal of a school. She’d been a teacher for a large part of her life, and we would often talk about what makes a good teacher. It was about sort of what you’re describing Jamie, and how you can get others excited, and how you can reach others and help them be curious.
And as you’re talking about your colleagues at the Rubin, and finding a good fit, it seems to me that whatever they’re doing, it’s not also about just them and their curiosity. It’s about how much they want to communicate and share that with the visitors. And it feels like as soon as you got that combo, then you’re golden because it’s about that welcoming and your sort of story, your origin story is just quintessentially that perfect mix of the visitor who’s nervous but open to want to know more and curious, and then the docent or the person who represents the institution holding their hand and shepherding them forwards.
Brenda: Well, being cared for in terms of being listened to and like you’ve been saying, being seen, but also being cared for in terms of compensation and hours of work and is my environment, you know, welcoming to me in a lot of practical ways. These are so imperative and in certain cultural institutions lead to so much stress, burnout, anxiety. We are all familiar with this kind of dynamic.
So, Jamie, your attention to creating a very caring environment, it’s absolutely essential to having a good workplace, a good work environment, and also to build resilience and to have the ability for somebody to feel so cared for and so comfortable that they might take that vulnerable step of saying something that might not like you said, feel very comfortable, perhaps, or they might feel like they can share even if they don’t know the answer, but they want to find out, or they want to reach out to other people with whom they don’t get to interact on a regular basis. All of those things can only happen if you’re in a very caring environment.
Abby: In your day to day or week to week or month by month. What are some of the challenges that happen in your job?
Jamie: So, for me, when I think about any challenges that I might face in the workplace, empathy is a guiding value for me. Being able to see and understand someone else’s point of view, whether it’s the curators, you know, curators that I work with, any members of staff, right, content experts, external partners, everyone has different perspectives, right? We understand this. But also, what happens is everyone has different ideas of who their audiences are. We’re all thinking about audience. But our challenge and my challenge is to make sure that we have a shared language with one another.
One of the things I love to do is collaborate, right? And a lot of the sort of things that come up when you hear collaborate is, oh there’s too many cooks in the kitchen. I understand where people are coming from, but to me, I’ve seen kitchens at work and there’s a lot of people in those kitchens, and it’s about every single person really understanding their role, why they’re here and having someone really guiding them expertly towards a common goal. We’re all so passionate about this work, and I think sometimes we can really misunderstand one another’s passions.
But if we’re willing to really pause and reflect and ask, why is this in the room, let’s take a step back. This is not about ego. This is about our audiences. And the more that we are cultivating and practicing that empathy, that vulnerability, all the things that we want our audiences to bring to us, we need to show that to our staff, to our colleagues, to our partners, to people who say, I don’t quite get it, right, but what does it look like to think about it a little differently, to see their humanity, to see their passion and say, while we don’t agree today, I’m willing to sit down, let’s listen, let’s find a way forward.
Abby: So, let’s focus on martial arts. So, this crops up a lot on our podcast. sports and how it helps with discipline, facing failure and sort of achieving success in the workplace. I was worried when my two girls, I’m very sporty. I’m really into sport, very competitive. And my kids were not that into sports, so I tracked them around to everything. But I was relieved when my eldest finally fell into jujitsu, which is a phenomenal sport, and my youngest now does volleyball, so they are not complete couch potatoes, and they may be successful in the workplace. So, Jamie, tell us about your sport and how you feel it relates to your work and the themes of interpretive experiences that you oversee.
Jamie: So, a fun fact about me, I’ll offer two fun facts; one, the way that my brain processes information, I don’t see any mental images. So, when I think about memories, a lot of people, if you think about a red barn or you can see a red barn and people have different ways that they see that red barn. For me there’s no mental image that comes up, right?
I can feel what that looks like. I can understand what it looks like. As a byproduct of that, right, it means that being embodied, really being in the present moment is the way that I really navigate the world. So, to go back to taekwondo, which I grew up doing, I was a second degree black belt, competed nationally across the country. And one of the things I really learned about from that from a very young age was the importance of embodied experience, right? When you can really feel something in your body, it helps you be present in a different way. It helps with patience; it helps with understanding.
And also, one of the things through a sport that’s very individual in nature, right, it’s you versus yourself, most often. There’s other ways, but a lot of times it’s you versus yourself. You begin to see the power of incremental change, right, so when we think about change happens, you know, when you’re training year after year, it’s not, you know, one thing, suddenly you’re at the next, next level. You wake up a year later and you’re completely different than, than what you were that year before.
So, to me, the subtlety of movement, the change in the way that you are holding your posture, right, you can feel that in your body. And I think for me, the last key takeaway for me from taekwondo, I started teaching when I was ten years old, which I cannot imagine that here in New York City, like you all show up to your workout class and there’s a ten-year-old telling you to drop and give them 20. But you know, for me, I had the opportunity to see that everyone was a beginner, right? Whether you’re a four-year-old or you’re a sixty-year-old, we all have things to learn. We all learn in different ways, and we all deserve respect and we’re all just trying to reach a common goal together and the power of being able to listen to one another.
So, a ten-year-old being able to offer correction based on expertise that they had and receive that in respect, it’s the same thing that should happen in our workplaces, right, leadership should be listening to an entry level person who’s just come in. So, to me, like I see that sort of reciprocity, that mutual respect of letting our titles out of the room and really just seeing like, what’s the expertise that we have here? Let’s listen to all the voices. We’re all beginners in some way. Let’s stay curious and let’s say open, open to learning.
Abby: It looks like you’ve reflected back a lot on your childhood and who you are. And it’s all sort of the pieces of the puzzle that fit together as to who you are now, you can see where you were at ten, how you’ve changed. Do you feel like there’s anything left to learn about yourself?
Jamie: Every day.
Abby: Really?
Jamie: Every day there’s other things to learn, right? Like knowledge locks in in new ways. And what locks in for me today, six months from now, there might be something new. That’s to me, we’re all in this path of ongoing learning. There’s always a beginner’s mind, right, that we need to embrace the world with.
So, for me, it’s like one of the things I really think about and whether I’m talking about taekwondo or the first time I, you know, felt comfortable in a museum. These are my values. These are the ways that I show up in my workplace, my history, my identity. Being a queer individual, that informs who I am, being empathetic, that informs who I am, being collaborative, all these things are values or identities, and I think that’s something that we, we talk a lot about. But so often within our teams, and when we show up to this work, what are our personal values?
Because those are the things that we will say yes to. Those are the things we will say no to, that influences how we fight in the room, how we let things go, where we will compromise, where we will, like, really push in. And it comes down to values and being willing to investigate yourself, become aware of where your weaknesses are, where the things that you don’t know, and you need to bring other people into the conversation.
And being able to learn from the things that you value, the way that you see the world, and understanding how that can drive you, but also where you need collaborators to sort of balance you out as well, and making sure that other people are also attuned to the things that they value. So that’s something to me that’s so important for the way that I think about, you know, biography and how we show up in the workplace.
We’re showing up as whole people. Right? And it’s important in our experiences. We are designing as whole people. We’re designing for the things we love, the things that we privilege. And it’s why it’s so important to have that empathy for others and other perspectives and other points of view. Because if we are only leading from our own sensations, the things that we care about, we are leaving so many people out of the conversation.
Brenda: Let’s talk about the Rubin Museum of Art. It’s about to launch itself into a whole new form. It’s envisioning itself as a global museum, and that means traveling museum, a digital experience, a loaning institution. And I think that what the institution is embarking upon is incredibly courageous. And I think about other institutions that have taken similar forms, such as the Museum of Homelessness, the Museum of Empathy, and how it is that these institutions operated without walls for many years, and they reached so many people through installation, through programs, and through being a part of other museum and heritage sites.
So, I’m excited about the new form that the Rubin is taking, and appreciate how bold it is for challenging conventions and challenging, you know, even the new definition of museum that ICOM has put forth. Jamie, what feedback have you been receiving from others? Are there naysayers?
Jamie: You know, for us, it’s really important to be able to meet audiences where they are, and there has been a lot of excitement towards this. We’ve received a lot of positive feedback of, yes, like, you’re going to come near me now. You’ll be able to do more work within the regions that you serve. You will still be there to serve us. You’ll be able to create more understanding, awareness of Himalayan art. Fabulous. So, there has been a lot of support for evolution.
There has also been, you know, people who feel a sense of attachment to who we are and want us to continue to be who we are. And it’s been really interesting, you know, to see grief in action. Right? The really, the response from the museum community, from the visitors, the only way I can describe it is just to compare it with grief. There’s people who are experiencing loss, profound memories that they’ve had in the space, who come to it during moments of I want to sort of make sense of what’s happening in my life, in the world. They come to the Rubin. People who want to feel a connection to their own culture, come to the Rubin. So, I recognize that our transition to our new form does come with that loss that people really know us, know us as, and love us as.
And also, we’re still going to be here, right? We’re still serving our audiences. It’s just going to look different than what people really know us as right now. And one of the things that’s so exciting, we just opened the Mandala Lab in Italy, which is currently in our current physical building. We’re still able to bring Rubin experiences to people all over the States and all over the world. So, there’s still so many ways to interact with us.
We’re looking to support other cultural institutions who want to tell the story of Himalayan art, right? To be able to share our collection more broadly, something that the museum field we need to do, we need to share our assets. We need to share expertise and lift one another up. We will be able to do that work hand in hand with other cultural partners, and we will also be able to serve and support other artists and researchers through grant projects and opportunities.
So, while we are losing a very centralized way to experience us, we are actually going to be supplementing and supporting Himalayan art and this very important field of study in completely different ways, and to still be of service to the art, to the collection and to our audiences.
Abby: What motivated this?
Jamie: One of the big motivating factors was really following where can we most impact audiences? So, seeing a lot of the success of our traveling projects, of seeing attendance and support, support being there in both financial and audience excitement around it, those were really powerful proof points for us. And also, museums in their physical spaces, they’re expensive as well, right? So, for us, while financially the Rubin’s at a good point, this transition allows us to continue to serve our audiences for even longer. The museum field has to change.
I think when we look at our textbooks five years down the line, we’re going to see this moment that we’re currently living through right now. And I think what’s happening for us at the Rubin, I like to think about it as museum studies in action, right? You know, so this is to me, it’s a bold step that we are doing, but it’s one that’s in our heart of hearts, trying to serve audiences in our collection in the best way possible.
Brenda: So, you’ve been working in Bulgaria for the past few years on this really exciting initiative called Muse Academy. To me, it seems like there’s a surge of activity happening in Bulgaria, or at least I seem to keep hearing about how amazing Bulgaria is from a heritage institution and, cultural museum perspective. And I’m even thinking of, like, the new children’s museum, that’s there, Muzeiko, which is so beautiful and so profound and I hope to get there in person someday.
But let’s talk about you. What is the work that you’ve been doing in Bulgaria and what is it like bringing museum studies, audience studies, experience? What is it like bringing that to a very different place in a very different culture?
Jamie: So, the work I’ve been doing in Bulgaria, the, the past year and a half now has been so rewarding and so powerful. And it’s alongside great collaborators Paul Orselli and Christina Ferwerda and, we’ve been invited to create a professional development program where we’re inviting cultural professionals from all over Bulgaria, from entry level positions to museum directors, outgoing directors who are getting ready to pass the baton, also partnering with NGOs who partner with museums and tourism, hospitality and helping them think about how can I create an audience centered experience.
So, we’re bringing together a curriculum that is helping them change the way that they’re thinking about audience, to think about how can I tell dynamic stories in my cultural institutions? How can I create interactive exhibitions and really keep audience satisfaction at the center, and to not only give them tools that they can bring back, but also give them a mindset that they can push forward and one of the guiding phrases for the program is Mozhelo, which means it is possible.
So, this program is not only giving them real things, but real things that they can, they can do today, small and big changes. But it’s also giving them an energy inside them that says, you know what? We can do this right, I can do this, that this change is possible. So, to me, that’s that, you know, that’s something I believe so powerfully in our field, is that each one of us can make a difference in our, in our small ways.
We can push boulders up hills. We can do it together. If other people don’t want to join us, it’s okay. There’s still things that we can do and try, and it’s important that we, we stay focused. We stay focused on what’s ahead of us and that audience that we are fighting for to bring into our cultural institutions. So, when we’re there and doing that work, we’re helping remind people of the power of audience, of what it means to visit a cultural institution, of why it matters, and to give people professional development opportunities to network and find their collaborators, and to say, hey, like this, this is possible. We can, we can do something here.
Abby: Jamie, this was incredible. I feel like we could definitely go on for another hour. I would love to have you back after we see the transition, the Rubin to without walls. It would be really interesting to talk through all the pros and cons and what you’re experiencing and learning and growing. Very excited to see your next chapter. Thank you so much for coming on the show and sharing your experiences.
Jamie: Thank you so much.
Abby: And thanks to everyone who tuned in today. If you like what you heard, subscribe for more episodes of Matters of Experience. Make sure to leave a rating and a review and share with a friend. We’ll see you next time!
Brenda: Thank you everyone!
[Music]
Producer: Matters of Experience is produced by Lorem Ipsum Corp and recorded at Hangar Studios. Tune in next time for more fun discussions about experience design.
ICOM approves a new museum definition
Mandala Lab, Milan | BAM | 2024 – Rubin Museum of Art
[Music]
Abby: Welcome to Matters of Experience, a podcast produced by Lorem Ipsum, an experience design company headquartered in New York City. Our podcast explores the creativity, innovation and psychology driving designed experiences. If you’re new, a hearty welcome and to our regular listeners, thanks for tuning in and supporting our conversation. My name is Abigail Honor.
Brenda: And this is Brenda Cowan.
Abby: So today I am very overly excited to welcome Jamie Lawyer to the show. Jamie is the chief—and the world goes crazy—Jamie is the chief experience officer at the Rubin, where she drives the creation of strategic, creative and empowered experiences at the intersection of visitors, art and museum staff. So, Jamie, we’re neighbors. The Rubin was on the same street as our old office for over a decade, and I’ve been fortunate enough to have enjoyed many, many days with my children, colleagues, either visiting the unbelievable collection or one of the temporary exhibitions, or enjoying the best lunch, I would say, in the neighborhood, or buying a gift at the store.
Brenda: Or the DJ Friday nights, don’t forget that.
Abby: DJ Friday night. It has a special place in my New York experience, and I’m really excited to talk about your many hats, from audience-centered work to your commitment to educating museum professionals and your black belt in taekwondo. Jamie, thank you for joining us today.
Jamie: Thank you so much. I’m excited to be here.
Brenda: Let’s just begin with your origin story. What attracted you to the work that you’re doing now?
Jamie: I was 19 years old the first time I stepped foot inside a museum. I grew up in a small town in Pennsylvania, and as someone who was gay in a very small area, the feeling of belonging was something I was very attuned to. And I also did not have a lot of access to arts and culture where I grew up. And I remember the first time I went to a museum down in Washington, D.C., and stepped foot through the door, and I’m in this gallery, and I look around and I see families. I see two, you know, college age students signing, you know, to one another from Gallaudet University.
And I walk closer to a Jackson Pollock painting and security guard comes up to me and I’m worried. Oh, no, I did something wrong. Not again. And instead of correcting me, he invited me to look closer. And at that moment, I realized the power of that invitation, of what it feels like to belong in a space that can feel so intimidating and you’re so scared and, you’re just trying to figure out how to, how this, how does all this relate to me?
So, for me, that moment of invitation, I felt the power of that, and that’s the feeling that I wanted to pursue and say, hey, you know, people like me belong in museums. And if I don’t feel like I belong, I’m sure there’s plenty of other people that also feel that way too.
Brenda: What a really amazing foundational experience for you to have. That feeling that you described, is that something that is still present with you today, and the work that you do when you pop into the museum for your job and it’s, you know, yet another day. Do you still have this feeling of, is this a place where people can belong?
Jamie: That is the number one thing I am fighting for in every room that I’m in, and every time I talk to a team member, when I think about why do we do this work right? It’s to make people feel like this is a place for them, to make people feel like art and culture can matter, and that you have a right to access it. And to me, what happens when we build that muscle for our audiences, they begin to get curious about culture. They begin to fall in love with cultural experiences, and that’s something we need more of. We need museum fans. We need people to be excited, and we need to make sure that we’re creating spaces where we are caring for our audiences in such a deep way that they walk away with saying, you know what? I had a great experience today. I feel confident the next time I go into the next cultural institution that I access.
Abby: As a chief experience officer, what are you doing on a daily basis? Give me a day in the life of Jamie.
Jamie: My role as Chief Experience Officer at the Rubin, I’m really thinking about the 360-degree view of audience experience. Right? So, for me, that means at the point of entry, I’m making sure that our frontline staff feel supported, that they can welcome people with ease, that they have the knowledge that it takes to form those connections. I’m also intersecting with a lot of the activities that are unfolding in our galleries for interpretation. So again, another bridge between our art, our curators and our audiences. Right? So, in my areas, this is also our docent programs.
So now I’ve, I’ve walked you through, we’re coming through the front door. We’ve moved into our gallery spaces. But it’s also all the words that we’re using. So, for us that’s the language, that’s editorial, that’s the things that we’re publishing, all the ways that we’re speaking with people to make sure that we’re creating something that’s consistent throughout and an area that’s expanded for us and will continue to grow.
That’s also digital content, right? So really being able to push out into different ways to reach audiences. So, for me, a day in my life is really thinking about, those are all the major interaction points just within my team structure. But of course, I’m collaborating with colleagues across the museum to really make sure that they’re keeping visitors at the center of all of their work, because that’s what every department is really designed to do.
We’re supporting audiences, we’re supporting staff who support audience, and we’re trying to find ways to work together and making sure that we’re creating a dynamic experience for them, regardless of what area of the museum we serve.
Brenda: You do some of the most sophisticated audience studies I think I’ve ever seen, looking at audiences, looking at people, thinking about experience, thinking about learning, thinking about play, thinking about what is engagement. And tell us a little bit, give our listeners a little quick hit of the predominant types of audiences that you have identified at the Rubin, because they’re fascinating. And if I recall correctly, right, you’ve got like two predominant types of visitors. Right? And then it gets more complex.
Jamie: So, the audiences that come to the Rubin based on research that we have done in the past, we really are focusing on two major elements, and we really embrace psychographic research, right, what’s motivating people to really come in through the doors? And I would say they break down into simple, but powerful ways. People that want to engage with their head, I want to learn, I want to engage with my intellect and people that engage with their heart, right, I want an emotional experience. I want to feel connected to something bigger than myself. So those are our two audiences that are sharing spaces with one another. They have completely different needs, but they both can really learn from each other and in quite valuable ways.
And when we’re able to really build that foundation for those people who love to experience with their heart, they appreciate when their head gets involved. And there’s people that, you know, I want to learn. I crave something new. They’re even open to learning more about their emotions and ways of feeling connected to someone else. So, while they might seem separate on paper, there’s a beautiful space that they do overlap. And some of our projects are really thinking about where is that overlap, how can we satisfy both of those audiences and making sure that they have a meaningful experience with us and can really learn from each other as part of it?
Brenda: So, you do so much in your role as chief experience officer. What don’t you do that you think you should be? What’s missing?
Jamie: So, the thing that I, I wish for and I spend quite a bit of my, my days doing is really thinking about our employee experience, right? Museums are made of people, and the great work that we do comes from them, and when we invest in them, we will have greater and stronger audience experiences on the outset. When we make it so that their work is easier to do when they can find joy in what they do, when they feel empowered, when they know how to show up in their space and feel celebrated for that, we will have better cultural institutions.
So, for me, that big thing that I spend a lot of time doing that is really thinking about how can I really improve what’s happening on the inside of our cultural institutions within our teams that make people reach out, say, hey, let’s work together on this, hey, you have a valuable perspective to offer. I haven’t heard you speak up today. I know you’re thinking something, so really making sure that all the key voices are heard and represented as part of the conversation, and not only it being something that I’m just deeply passionate about, then making sure it gets baked into our culture and the way of working so that it will stay, and suddenly people will wake up and say, this is how we’ve always been.
Abby: What makes a great colleague? How can you tell somebody is not going to fit culturally, and who’s going to be a good fit?
Jamie: When I think about someone coming into a cultural institution, my approach is I look for potential, right? I look for people who are excited, who are curious, who have passion for what they’re doing, and that’s what matters to me. And of course, we can go into expertise and qualifications and, you know, things like that. But to me, as someone who is curious to learn, who is resilient, who has the ability to pivot, and I’m not just speaking for the, the Rubin Museum, this is for cultural institutions today, because to me, it’s, you can have all of those incredible, necessary hard skills, but so many of those soft skills that we talk about, like that’s to me, when things get tough, those are the things that we’re leaning on. Right? When people value that as part of who they are, that helps them propel forward.
So, someone who’s curious and willing to learn more, and that’s what our art really shows us. We’re dealing with Himalayan art. Our art requires that we stay curious and keep our minds open. And I know on the show you’ve talked a lot about like growth mindsets, right? So being able to have a growth mindset is so essential in the museum field. From my perspective, when I’m thinking about people I want to work with, that’s our way forward. People who are willing to see other ways of doing things, willing to sort of roll our sleeves up and have great conversations and, you know, have the uncomfortable conversations as well. To me, that’s how we move the field forward and also how we find joy in our work.
Abby: You know what’s really interesting, so my mom was the principal of a school. She’d been a teacher for a large part of her life, and we would often talk about what makes a good teacher. It was about sort of what you’re describing Jamie, and how you can get others excited, and how you can reach others and help them be curious.
And as you’re talking about your colleagues at the Rubin, and finding a good fit, it seems to me that whatever they’re doing, it’s not also about just them and their curiosity. It’s about how much they want to communicate and share that with the visitors. And it feels like as soon as you got that combo, then you’re golden because it’s about that welcoming and your sort of story, your origin story is just quintessentially that perfect mix of the visitor who’s nervous but open to want to know more and curious, and then the docent or the person who represents the institution holding their hand and shepherding them forwards.
Brenda: Well, being cared for in terms of being listened to and like you’ve been saying, being seen, but also being cared for in terms of compensation and hours of work and is my environment, you know, welcoming to me in a lot of practical ways. These are so imperative and in certain cultural institutions lead to so much stress, burnout, anxiety. We are all familiar with this kind of dynamic.
So, Jamie, your attention to creating a very caring environment, it’s absolutely essential to having a good workplace, a good work environment, and also to build resilience and to have the ability for somebody to feel so cared for and so comfortable that they might take that vulnerable step of saying something that might not like you said, feel very comfortable, perhaps, or they might feel like they can share even if they don’t know the answer, but they want to find out, or they want to reach out to other people with whom they don’t get to interact on a regular basis. All of those things can only happen if you’re in a very caring environment.
Abby: In your day to day or week to week or month by month. What are some of the challenges that happen in your job?
Jamie: So, for me, when I think about any challenges that I might face in the workplace, empathy is a guiding value for me. Being able to see and understand someone else’s point of view, whether it’s the curators, you know, curators that I work with, any members of staff, right, content experts, external partners, everyone has different perspectives, right? We understand this. But also, what happens is everyone has different ideas of who their audiences are. We’re all thinking about audience. But our challenge and my challenge is to make sure that we have a shared language with one another.
One of the things I love to do is collaborate, right? And a lot of the sort of things that come up when you hear collaborate is, oh there’s too many cooks in the kitchen. I understand where people are coming from, but to me, I’ve seen kitchens at work and there’s a lot of people in those kitchens, and it’s about every single person really understanding their role, why they’re here and having someone really guiding them expertly towards a common goal. We’re all so passionate about this work, and I think sometimes we can really misunderstand one another’s passions.
But if we’re willing to really pause and reflect and ask, why is this in the room, let’s take a step back. This is not about ego. This is about our audiences. And the more that we are cultivating and practicing that empathy, that vulnerability, all the things that we want our audiences to bring to us, we need to show that to our staff, to our colleagues, to our partners, to people who say, I don’t quite get it, right, but what does it look like to think about it a little differently, to see their humanity, to see their passion and say, while we don’t agree today, I’m willing to sit down, let’s listen, let’s find a way forward.
Abby: So, let’s focus on martial arts. So, this crops up a lot on our podcast. sports and how it helps with discipline, facing failure and sort of achieving success in the workplace. I was worried when my two girls, I’m very sporty. I’m really into sport, very competitive. And my kids were not that into sports, so I tracked them around to everything. But I was relieved when my eldest finally fell into jujitsu, which is a phenomenal sport, and my youngest now does volleyball, so they are not complete couch potatoes, and they may be successful in the workplace. So, Jamie, tell us about your sport and how you feel it relates to your work and the themes of interpretive experiences that you oversee.
Jamie: So, a fun fact about me, I’ll offer two fun facts; one, the way that my brain processes information, I don’t see any mental images. So, when I think about memories, a lot of people, if you think about a red barn or you can see a red barn and people have different ways that they see that red barn. For me there’s no mental image that comes up, right?
I can feel what that looks like. I can understand what it looks like. As a byproduct of that, right, it means that being embodied, really being in the present moment is the way that I really navigate the world. So, to go back to taekwondo, which I grew up doing, I was a second degree black belt, competed nationally across the country. And one of the things I really learned about from that from a very young age was the importance of embodied experience, right? When you can really feel something in your body, it helps you be present in a different way. It helps with patience; it helps with understanding.
And also, one of the things through a sport that’s very individual in nature, right, it’s you versus yourself, most often. There’s other ways, but a lot of times it’s you versus yourself. You begin to see the power of incremental change, right, so when we think about change happens, you know, when you’re training year after year, it’s not, you know, one thing, suddenly you’re at the next, next level. You wake up a year later and you’re completely different than, than what you were that year before.
So, to me, the subtlety of movement, the change in the way that you are holding your posture, right, you can feel that in your body. And I think for me, the last key takeaway for me from taekwondo, I started teaching when I was ten years old, which I cannot imagine that here in New York City, like you all show up to your workout class and there’s a ten-year-old telling you to drop and give them 20. But you know, for me, I had the opportunity to see that everyone was a beginner, right? Whether you’re a four-year-old or you’re a sixty-year-old, we all have things to learn. We all learn in different ways, and we all deserve respect and we’re all just trying to reach a common goal together and the power of being able to listen to one another.
So, a ten-year-old being able to offer correction based on expertise that they had and receive that in respect, it’s the same thing that should happen in our workplaces, right, leadership should be listening to an entry level person who’s just come in. So, to me, like I see that sort of reciprocity, that mutual respect of letting our titles out of the room and really just seeing like, what’s the expertise that we have here? Let’s listen to all the voices. We’re all beginners in some way. Let’s stay curious and let’s say open, open to learning.
Abby: It looks like you’ve reflected back a lot on your childhood and who you are. And it’s all sort of the pieces of the puzzle that fit together as to who you are now, you can see where you were at ten, how you’ve changed. Do you feel like there’s anything left to learn about yourself?
Jamie: Every day.
Abby: Really?
Jamie: Every day there’s other things to learn, right? Like knowledge locks in in new ways. And what locks in for me today, six months from now, there might be something new. That’s to me, we’re all in this path of ongoing learning. There’s always a beginner’s mind, right, that we need to embrace the world with.
So, for me, it’s like one of the things I really think about and whether I’m talking about taekwondo or the first time I, you know, felt comfortable in a museum. These are my values. These are the ways that I show up in my workplace, my history, my identity. Being a queer individual, that informs who I am, being empathetic, that informs who I am, being collaborative, all these things are values or identities, and I think that’s something that we, we talk a lot about. But so often within our teams, and when we show up to this work, what are our personal values?
Because those are the things that we will say yes to. Those are the things we will say no to, that influences how we fight in the room, how we let things go, where we will compromise, where we will, like, really push in. And it comes down to values and being willing to investigate yourself, become aware of where your weaknesses are, where the things that you don’t know, and you need to bring other people into the conversation.
And being able to learn from the things that you value, the way that you see the world, and understanding how that can drive you, but also where you need collaborators to sort of balance you out as well, and making sure that other people are also attuned to the things that they value. So that’s something to me that’s so important for the way that I think about, you know, biography and how we show up in the workplace.
We’re showing up as whole people. Right? And it’s important in our experiences. We are designing as whole people. We’re designing for the things we love, the things that we privilege. And it’s why it’s so important to have that empathy for others and other perspectives and other points of view. Because if we are only leading from our own sensations, the things that we care about, we are leaving so many people out of the conversation.
Brenda: Let’s talk about the Rubin Museum of Art. It’s about to launch itself into a whole new form. It’s envisioning itself as a global museum, and that means traveling museum, a digital experience, a loaning institution. And I think that what the institution is embarking upon is incredibly courageous. And I think about other institutions that have taken similar forms, such as the Museum of Homelessness, the Museum of Empathy, and how it is that these institutions operated without walls for many years, and they reached so many people through installation, through programs, and through being a part of other museum and heritage sites.
So, I’m excited about the new form that the Rubin is taking, and appreciate how bold it is for challenging conventions and challenging, you know, even the new definition of museum that ICOM has put forth. Jamie, what feedback have you been receiving from others? Are there naysayers?
Jamie: You know, for us, it’s really important to be able to meet audiences where they are, and there has been a lot of excitement towards this. We’ve received a lot of positive feedback of, yes, like, you’re going to come near me now. You’ll be able to do more work within the regions that you serve. You will still be there to serve us. You’ll be able to create more understanding, awareness of Himalayan art. Fabulous. So, there has been a lot of support for evolution.
There has also been, you know, people who feel a sense of attachment to who we are and want us to continue to be who we are. And it’s been really interesting, you know, to see grief in action. Right? The really, the response from the museum community, from the visitors, the only way I can describe it is just to compare it with grief. There’s people who are experiencing loss, profound memories that they’ve had in the space, who come to it during moments of I want to sort of make sense of what’s happening in my life, in the world. They come to the Rubin. People who want to feel a connection to their own culture, come to the Rubin. So, I recognize that our transition to our new form does come with that loss that people really know us, know us as, and love us as.
And also, we’re still going to be here, right? We’re still serving our audiences. It’s just going to look different than what people really know us as right now. And one of the things that’s so exciting, we just opened the Mandala Lab in Italy, which is currently in our current physical building. We’re still able to bring Rubin experiences to people all over the States and all over the world. So, there’s still so many ways to interact with us.
We’re looking to support other cultural institutions who want to tell the story of Himalayan art, right? To be able to share our collection more broadly, something that the museum field we need to do, we need to share our assets. We need to share expertise and lift one another up. We will be able to do that work hand in hand with other cultural partners, and we will also be able to serve and support other artists and researchers through grant projects and opportunities.
So, while we are losing a very centralized way to experience us, we are actually going to be supplementing and supporting Himalayan art and this very important field of study in completely different ways, and to still be of service to the art, to the collection and to our audiences.
Abby: What motivated this?
Jamie: One of the big motivating factors was really following where can we most impact audiences? So, seeing a lot of the success of our traveling projects, of seeing attendance and support, support being there in both financial and audience excitement around it, those were really powerful proof points for us. And also, museums in their physical spaces, they’re expensive as well, right? So, for us, while financially the Rubin’s at a good point, this transition allows us to continue to serve our audiences for even longer. The museum field has to change.
I think when we look at our textbooks five years down the line, we’re going to see this moment that we’re currently living through right now. And I think what’s happening for us at the Rubin, I like to think about it as museum studies in action, right? You know, so this is to me, it’s a bold step that we are doing, but it’s one that’s in our heart of hearts, trying to serve audiences in our collection in the best way possible.
Brenda: So, you’ve been working in Bulgaria for the past few years on this really exciting initiative called Muse Academy. To me, it seems like there’s a surge of activity happening in Bulgaria, or at least I seem to keep hearing about how amazing Bulgaria is from a heritage institution and, cultural museum perspective. And I’m even thinking of, like, the new children’s museum, that’s there, Muzeiko, which is so beautiful and so profound and I hope to get there in person someday.
But let’s talk about you. What is the work that you’ve been doing in Bulgaria and what is it like bringing museum studies, audience studies, experience? What is it like bringing that to a very different place in a very different culture?
Jamie: So, the work I’ve been doing in Bulgaria, the, the past year and a half now has been so rewarding and so powerful. And it’s alongside great collaborators Paul Orselli and Christina Ferwerda and, we’ve been invited to create a professional development program where we’re inviting cultural professionals from all over Bulgaria, from entry level positions to museum directors, outgoing directors who are getting ready to pass the baton, also partnering with NGOs who partner with museums and tourism, hospitality and helping them think about how can I create an audience centered experience.
So, we’re bringing together a curriculum that is helping them change the way that they’re thinking about audience, to think about how can I tell dynamic stories in my cultural institutions? How can I create interactive exhibitions and really keep audience satisfaction at the center, and to not only give them tools that they can bring back, but also give them a mindset that they can push forward and one of the guiding phrases for the program is Mozhelo, which means it is possible.
So, this program is not only giving them real things, but real things that they can, they can do today, small and big changes. But it’s also giving them an energy inside them that says, you know what? We can do this right, I can do this, that this change is possible. So, to me, that’s that, you know, that’s something I believe so powerfully in our field, is that each one of us can make a difference in our, in our small ways.
We can push boulders up hills. We can do it together. If other people don’t want to join us, it’s okay. There’s still things that we can do and try, and it’s important that we, we stay focused. We stay focused on what’s ahead of us and that audience that we are fighting for to bring into our cultural institutions. So, when we’re there and doing that work, we’re helping remind people of the power of audience, of what it means to visit a cultural institution, of why it matters, and to give people professional development opportunities to network and find their collaborators, and to say, hey, like this, this is possible. We can, we can do something here.
Abby: Jamie, this was incredible. I feel like we could definitely go on for another hour. I would love to have you back after we see the transition, the Rubin to without walls. It would be really interesting to talk through all the pros and cons and what you’re experiencing and learning and growing. Very excited to see your next chapter. Thank you so much for coming on the show and sharing your experiences.
Jamie: Thank you so much.
Abby: And thanks to everyone who tuned in today. If you like what you heard, subscribe for more episodes of Matters of Experience. Make sure to leave a rating and a review and share with a friend. We’ll see you next time!
Brenda: Thank you everyone!
[Music]
Producer: Matters of Experience is produced by Lorem Ipsum Corp and recorded at Hangar Studios. Tune in next time for more fun discussions about experience design.
Creating an Audience-Centered Experience with Jamie Lawyer
Textiles and Technology with Nicole Yi Messier
[Music]
Abby: Welcome to Matters of Experience, produced by Lorem Ipsum, an experience design company headquartered in New York City. Our podcast explores the creativity, innovation and psychology driving immersive experiences. If you’re new, hello and welcome and to our regular listeners, thank you for tuning in and supporting our conversation. My name is Abigail Honor.
Brenda: Hello, everyone. This is Brenda Cowan.
Abby: So today we’re chatting with someone who works at the intersection of technology, craft and textiles to create experiences that truly push the envelope in terms of the way we interact with them and the way they respond to us. And someone who, as you learn more from, opens up a whole world of possibility in your brain you never knew existed, speaking from experience after visiting her studio, which is why I am so happy to welcome Nicole Yi Messier to our show. Nicole. Hello.
Nicole: Hi! I’m so excited to be here.
Abby: Nicole, you’re an interdisciplinary artist and creative technologist with a focus on storytelling and community. You co-founded Craftwork Collective, teach at Parsons and exhibit your work globally. So, we really have a lot to cover on this show. I’d like to first focus on how you got into this combo of technology and art. Technology and textiles is not an obvious pairing. So, how did you come to this particular intersection?
Nicole: Yeah, so my background and my first degree was actually in aerospace mechanical engineering and then I went on and worked at a consulting firm, and I really did not like it. While I was working in the consulting firm, I was taking art classes at night and decided to go back to school, get my MFA in design and technology. And that’s where I took a class called Computational Craft, where we’re really exploring conductive fabrics, thermochromic inks and things of that nature, and just got excited about kind of the magic that these materials bring to engineering and interactive things.
Brenda: What is it, I have to ask, what is it about aerospace engineering that sort of hooked you in the first place? What was it that, you know, sparked you to try it out?
Nicole: I was good at math and science in high school, and so I feel like everyone was like, you should do engineering. But I also really like to make, so I think that was the biggest thing actually, for me in engineering school that was lacking was like the making, the hands-on part. A lot of it was theory.
Brenda: Well, speaking of making, you once described the loom as being the first computer. We would love to hear more about what you mean by that, and how you see the history of technology and making and craft.
Nicole: We think of textiles as kind of an ancient technology. It’s a very mechanical system. They’re like the first computer, the first, like, drafting patterns and things of that nature, and so when we think about technology at craft work, we’re really trying to marry the two. It’s not just about what is modern technology, but let’s go to the past, use craft, and bring it into the digital technologies that we’re using today.
Abby: So how does all this fit with storytelling? You know, I understand both textiles and technology have been used to tell stories, textile art is one of the oldest forms of art and been used to tell stories through like human and animal figures, landscapes or, for example, the Bayeux Tapestry in England, which were all taught about, you know, from the Norman Conquest of England in 1066. It’s this huge thing that wraps all the way around, around the room. It’s amazing.
Textiles have been used to express cultural narratives, political affiliation. I’m thinking about banners, or there’s the AIDS quilts, and there’s also been multiple textile reactions to 911. I’m not even going into all of the ideas of blindfolds, gags, masks, corsets, foot bindings which tell a more violent story. But for you, Nicole, how does bringing the textiles and technology together sort of enhance, widen, deepen, I guess, the storytelling possibilities?
Nicole: Part of our work at Craftwork is we’re always thinking about how to kind of reimagine how textiles have always told stories across time and space. And so, we’re making oftentimes modern precedents of things that have already been made.
So, for example, we have a project called Ancient Futures where you could walk up to this textile that is woven with fiber optics, and you could tell it a secret or a story, and it would reflect back in light. And the, like, inspiration for this is how textiles have always held secrets, for example, people used to, knit secrets or messages into mittens during World War II.
For us, textiles is really kind of like a soft medium. So much of technology or interactive things today happen on a screen, and textiles help us bring something that’s a bit warmer and softer into these spaces.
Brenda: Is it possible for you to even separate the two? So, specifically, is there something about technology and just technology in and of itself that really excites you right now and then is there something about textiles and only textiles that’s exciting you right now?
Nicole: For me, I’m very unexcited about modern technologies right now. I think we’re seeing a lot of things on repeat, a lot of the same ideas, and it seems quite cyclical. And then whenever I’m doing something that’s textile based, I’m excited about it because it’s hands on, it’s usually something new that I’m learning. And then marrying the two is super exciting because we’re often creating novel materials, so like blending materials that aren’t found within the same space and really having to think about how these two different worlds can live together.
Abby: Do you think it’s because, you mentioned hard or plastic or digital or technology and how sort of that feels very rough or hard and then when you think about textiles, they feel softer. Do you think as people, as human beings, we like a bit of softness in our life.
Because I know when I was in your studio, I wanted to touch things. You had a beautiful merino wool hanging that may end up as a rug, and it was just the type of thing that you, it was soft and padded and squishy, and it was so, so nice. I wanted to walk on it. And so, textiles provide this emotional connection that isn’t in technology. I don’t feel the same—I get excited about technology—but I don’t want to touch it and squish it and being, surrounded by it. So, is there something about human nature that you think craves softness?
Nicole: I think people love texture and they love to touch things. And so, I think also when we think about textiles, it reminds us of home sometimes. There’s like less of a barrier to get through, so just thinking like instead of having a touch screen, what if that screen was soft or had some type of texture to it, I think it would be easier for people to engage with it.
Brenda: This is reminding me of, there’s an artist in the UK named Ellen Sampson, and she’s done a lot of research with touch and with clothing, and she talks a lot about how in her thinking, the desire to touch and to feel items of clothing specifically, has to do with the idea that our DNA is threaded within it, and the memories of people held within clothing is much like the DNA that we impart within clothing. It’s really, it’s, it’s fascinating stuff.
What do you think about that? Do you think about people wearing textiles as you’re making them? Do you think about that kind of human interrelationship and the idea that somebody’s body is really mingling with the work that you create?
Nicole: Yeah, sometimes with e-textiles, a lot of times you think about wearables and what it means to have something that’s interactive and soft on your body. I think for me and for us at Craftwork, we’re more excited about thinking about textiles as like an actual building block. And I think for a lot of people, the first thing when you think about textiles, you think about clothes, but actually, like you look around the room right now, how much textiles are around us? There’s textile on this mic, there’s textiles on the wall, and then just like making textile at an industrial scale to really be immersive in environments and in spaces.
Abby: One of the things, actually, you mentioned Ancient Futures, and I was in there and I saw a prototype. One of the things that I loved about it is this idea of being able to share a story and have the digital side create a color that represents that emotion of the story. So, if it was a happy story, it would be one color, neutral story, another, and then something maybe negative, not that I’d ever tell a negative story.
Brenda: Never.
Abby: That would be a be a third color. Can you talk a little bit about the genesis of this idea and what you’re hoping to achieve?
Nicole: Yeah. Craft has been such a space for community historically. And so, for us, we constantly think about that with our interactive pieces. And so, where there’s an ambient feeling to the textile, where there’s a light that’s changing, and the idea is that that light will be constantly changing and evolving with all the messages that are shared with it and in particular space, and the idea is that we could capture the overall feeling and the mood of a community. And then as this piece travels from location to location, we could capture many different communities through their stories and reflect that through something that’s not exactly just text or audio, but through something that’s more about creating a feeling within a location.
Brenda: Amazing,and a feeling that is a shared feeling. A feeling that is sort of like of many instead of just one. That’s lovely.
Abby: Yeah. Isn’t that absolutely incredible?
Brenda: Yeah.
Nicole: I think also like sometimes it can feel like in big cities you might be disconnected, but that as you see the stories that are collected, there tends to be like moods throughout the day and that there’s actually a connection between people, even within spaces.
Brenda: Nicole, I’m wondering, are there other projects in addition to Ancient Futures that sort of combines spoken word with technology, with textile and emotions? And are there other works that you can sort of share with us right now?
Nicole: Less about the spoken word, but we, we have another project in the studio that we’re very excited about where we’re exploring RFID systems as a mode of interaction. RFID systems are pervasive. We use them every day to like, swipe into buildings, but the magic of them is actually they both have antennas on them, and one powers the other, and you don’t actually have to touch them. You can make them hover against each other, and there’s actually like electricity moving through them. And so, we’ve thought about how do we put this system on our body and have people interact either with spaces or with each other through like simple hovering gestures? It’ll be like a little bit playful, a little bit awkward, but exploring like different modes of intimate interactions. So we’re really excited about that, and we’re excited about it because it’s also using like a low fi tech that’s very accessible, very easy to come by.
Brenda: Amazing. Where do these ideas come from?
Abby: Are you solving a problem first? And you’re like, I’m sick of RFIDs, and the way they’re so like this. Or are you just like musing in the shower or like, like, oh, maybe and so, yeah, where’s your inspiration coming from?
Nicole: I think a lot of the inspiration is through making. So, for the RFID tag thing, I had to one time make an RFID experience. The ones that we’ve all seen at museums and my RFID tags were on backorder. And so I was just like Google how I make an RFID tag and there’s just like this whole world of people making fun, quirky things with RFID tags. You can take copper tape, make an antenna, put a light bulb on it, and you don’t even need a battery to power it, you Just hover that over an RFID reader and it lights something up. And it’s those moments that feel, they feel magical.
Abby: I was going to say, do you know what makes it hard, though, when you think about pitching what you do to a client, must be difficult. What are some of the issues or some of the hurdles when you’re trying to explain to clients what you do and the different materiality, like, how are you solving this issue and what are some of the misconceptions people might have?
Nicole: I think some of the misconceptions are, technology and textiles, you do wearables. And we do do wearables. We can do wearables, but we do so much more than that. And then in terms of pitching, it’s really hard to capture textiles via photo, and then it’s really hard to capture textiles that are doing things computationally.
So, the best thing that we have found is to bring people to our space and then sometimes—we have a big materials library that we’ve organized, and we use that as a big tool when we’re talking to people. And if we go to someone oftentimes, we’ll bring like 1 or 2 of those cases that are full of swatches just to show the materiality, allow people to touch things and experience what a computational textile could be.
Brenda: Let’s talk about process. First, though, I want to ask you a question regarding as you are shaping a work and going through the process and you’re thinking about the story, do you like incorporate the audience or the end user at any point throughout the process, or is it something where you know you’ll work up to a certain point and then you’ll bring in that end user or the visitor or whatever the case might be. What does that process look like?
Nicole: Much of our making process is prototyping. A lot of the pieces we have out in the world, we call them prototypes. And so, we are constantly having an iterative process where we’re allowing the space, the pieces to live within a space and people to interact with it. And then going back to the drawing board and seeing how what we can change to make it a better experience. Better experience, meaning a lot of things. Maybe it’s sometimes messaging, sometimes it’s the interaction, sometimes it’s the design of it, like how it looks and feels.
Abby: Oh, that’s so interesting.
Brenda: We would love to know what your thoughts are regarding AI and what kind of technologies you might be using.
Nicole: We have been exploring AI. We’ve had a few projects where we’re thinking about AI as a collaborator. And also, have just explored how AI makes textiles, and it can’t. It’s so bad. You ask it to make a knitted structure and it cannot. And we’ve also tried to use it, like the great thing about it is it could be a rendering tool, right, for RFIPs and pitches—it is a bad rendering tool for textiles. It’s so bad we went all the way the other way and we’re having a storyboard artist help us make pencil renderings.
Brenda: There we go. This is where I get to interject some kind of romantic comment about the human hand.
What are you really passionate about right now, if you could pick one thing?
Nicole: I feel like Craftwork is, our studio is, my passion project right now. There’s not a lot of people really doing experiential design where they’re putting material research at the core of the things they do, and I think that in order to make more interesting, interactive pieces, we really need to have material research, material exploration, be a part of the design process, and for us, that is what excites us.
Abby: So, what’s the best way to work with you? Because you must be brought on sometimes at the very beginning, but sometimes probably towards the middle or even the fabrication stage, where they’re like, oh, how are we going to make this. Can you sort of talk to us about your process and then how you work in the larger project process?
Nicole: Much of our process follows, a similar path to a larger project in that we have an idea or concept and then we do design development. But I would say our design development is less based in like rendering and mockup worlds and actually prototyping and making it. I feel like a lot of the studios in experiential design were doing so much prototyping and then the like older I’ve gotten, the studios have moved away from it, and I think in order to make interesting work and really explore the possibilities of certain interactions and materials, you have to make things to figure it out. So, that’s a big part of our process. And then in terms of communicating that to a client, it’s like trying to find ways to document that constantly and capture that, and making that our 2D deliverable.
Abby: Yeah. That must be your biggest challenge in a way.
Brenda: Do you try to push to be a part of the earlier stages of the process?
Nicole: Yeah, ideally we’re part of concepting, so we can really flesh out the ideas together and build, build a creative trust because that’s, that’s a big hurdle. And we talked about this a bit. I think a lot of people are very excited about the new ideas, but then they want an example of it. It’s kind of like, well, we’re doing a new thing, so we don’t have an example and you kind of have to trust and it’s hard to build that trust. Yeah.
Brenda: It’s one of the things that we work with our students to try to really sort of teach them and enable them to be prepared for the, you know, inevitable question from a client, which is, day one, you’ve just met everybody: what’s it going to look like? And to fight against that, in, you know, a kind way, but to basically, for as long as humanly possible, not know what it is going to be, and it’s a tough, it’s a tough trick to teach a designer actually to, you know, not get visual for as long as possible and instead to really think about the story and the human factors and, you know, in the audience and so on and so forth, and it’s frustrating for, I know for a lot of the designers that I work with, it’s really frustrating to not know what it is.
What’s that process like for you? Do you get frustrated? You seem like you’re having too much fun to be a frustrated person.
Nicole: Do I get frustrated working with materials that don’t live within the same spaces? It’s so frustrating. But, as someone who’s done coding and hardware engineering, I feel like the biggest thing, and doing creative technology, so doing things that people don’t, haven’t done before is I have like a high amount of patience when things are broken. and I have this like, I can’t let it stay broken. So, I just keep going at it.
Brenda: It sounds like broken to you is an opportunity.
Nicole: Yes.
Abby: So, I would like, I’d like to ask you a question. What would you tell ten-year-old Nicole, if you could talk to her now, and here she is, ten-year-old Nicole, what would you say?
Nicole: I don’t know, I say this to my husband a lot, I say we’re living the dream, because New York can be hard and being a creative in New York can be hard. And I’m like you always have to remind yourself that, you know, in—to ten-year-old Nicole, in 25 years you’ll be living a dream.
Brenda: What’s coming up next? Can you talk about what, what we can expect from you in the near future?
Nicole: Yes. Craftwork is part of NEW INC. NEW INC is the design incubator at the New Museum. They work with artists, they work with studios, they work with a wide range of creative practitioners in helping them make their work more sustainably. So they’ll have a big festival called Demo Festival in June, and there will be a big, group exhibition, talks, presentations, and that is a big, kind of thing we’re looking forward to where we will have a large scale version of Ancient Futures that is up, down in Financial District.
Abby: Oh, fantastic.
Nicole: Yeah.
Brenda: That’s excellent.
Abby: Doesn’t that sound amazing, outside, see how it weathers the, because that was my other question was like textiles. I think we chatted textiles, water, like, are you dealing with waterproofing? Have you worked in water before, when you’re thinking about different elements?
Nicole: Yeah, we’ve dealt with waterproofing. And I think also when people think about textile, they think about it as a fragile thing, and actually there are industrial scale textiles. So thinking about whether it goes inside or outside, there really, there’s lots of possibilities there, and there’s lots of ways to treat textiles so that that might be stiffer in some parts, looser in others, so it has that flexibility, but that there’s, there’s different scales of what a textile can be.
I think the biggest thing is just, thinking about textiles as a building block is is a big thing for us. And I think it would be great if designers and everyone thought about that more. We would have such a richer, richer architecture, richer spatial design if we folded textiles in in a way that we fold technology or hard materials into things.
Abby: And for me, it kind of feels like one of those, why aren’t we doing it already? You know, like, yeah, of course, it should be part of our training, the training of students.
Brenda: Is it expensive? If I were looking to create some fabric architecture for space and stuff, does that like, are the budgeting conversations on a really crazy level or how accessible financially is this kind of technology?
Nicole: I think there are different scales, right? We were just talking about, this was for an exhibition, they’re going to put up drywall. We were like, we could put up fabric scrims instead, and the difference is, not crazy different.
Brenda: Right, negligible.
Nicole: Yeah.
Brenda: That’s really good to know and that, because that’s like the first question that I know always comes in. And it sounds like, you know, it might be really expensive, but it’s really nice to know that it’s scalable.
Abby: And long lasting, right? There’s a misconception that material will just wither away and disappear. But it lasts just as long in some cases, right?
Nicole: Yeah. And also, if you think about the amount of, like, money that goes into technology, if we could just think of textiles as technology, the amount of money to build something that’s textile and interactive would not be more expensive than something that’s hardened technology.
Abby: Just the plastics industry will be weeping.
Nicole: Yeah.
Abby: Which wouldn’t be a bad thing right. Exactly. Nicole thank you so much for opening up this window on textiles and technology and sharing your vision and experiences with us today. I hope everybody enjoyed listening. It was absolutely incredible.
Brenda: Amazing.
Abby: And thanks to everyone who tuned in. If you like what you heard, subscribe for more episodes of Matters of Experience, wherever you listen to podcasts. Make sure to leave a rating and a review and share with a friend. See you next time!
Brenda: Thank you everyone. Thank you, Nicole.
Nicole: Thank you.
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Producer: Matters of Experience is produced by Lorem Ipsum Corp and recorded at Hangar Studios. Tune in next time for more fun discussions about experience design.
[Music]
Abby: Welcome to Matters of Experience, produced by Lorem Ipsum, an experience design company headquartered in New York City. Our podcast explores the creativity, innovation and psychology driving immersive experiences. If you’re new, hello and welcome and to our regular listeners, thank you for tuning in and supporting our conversation. My name is Abigail Honor.
Brenda: Hello, everyone. This is Brenda Cowan.
Abby: So today we’re chatting with someone who works at the intersection of technology, craft and textiles to create experiences that truly push the envelope in terms of the way we interact with them and the way they respond to us. And someone who, as you learn more from, opens up a whole world of possibility in your brain you never knew existed, speaking from experience after visiting her studio, which is why I am so happy to welcome Nicole Yi Messier to our show. Nicole. Hello.
Nicole: Hi! I’m so excited to be here.
Abby: Nicole, you’re an interdisciplinary artist and creative technologist with a focus on storytelling and community. You co-founded Craftwork Collective, teach at Parsons and exhibit your work globally. So, we really have a lot to cover on this show. I’d like to first focus on how you got into this combo of technology and art. Technology and textiles is not an obvious pairing. So, how did you come to this particular intersection?
Nicole: Yeah, so my background and my first degree was actually in aerospace mechanical engineering and then I went on and worked at a consulting firm, and I really did not like it. While I was working in the consulting firm, I was taking art classes at night and decided to go back to school, get my MFA in design and technology. And that’s where I took a class called Computational Craft, where we’re really exploring conductive fabrics, thermochromic inks and things of that nature, and just got excited about kind of the magic that these materials bring to engineering and interactive things.
Brenda: What is it, I have to ask, what is it about aerospace engineering that sort of hooked you in the first place? What was it that, you know, sparked you to try it out?
Nicole: I was good at math and science in high school, and so I feel like everyone was like, you should do engineering. But I also really like to make, so I think that was the biggest thing actually, for me in engineering school that was lacking was like the making, the hands-on part. A lot of it was theory.
Brenda: Well, speaking of making, you once described the loom as being the first computer. We would love to hear more about what you mean by that, and how you see the history of technology and making and craft.
Nicole: We think of textiles as kind of an ancient technology. It’s a very mechanical system. They’re like the first computer, the first, like, drafting patterns and things of that nature, and so when we think about technology at craft work, we’re really trying to marry the two. It’s not just about what is modern technology, but let’s go to the past, use craft, and bring it into the digital technologies that we’re using today.
Abby: So how does all this fit with storytelling? You know, I understand both textiles and technology have been used to tell stories, textile art is one of the oldest forms of art and been used to tell stories through like human and animal figures, landscapes or, for example, the Bayeux Tapestry in England, which were all taught about, you know, from the Norman Conquest of England in 1066. It’s this huge thing that wraps all the way around, around the room. It’s amazing.
Textiles have been used to express cultural narratives, political affiliation. I’m thinking about banners, or there’s the AIDS quilts, and there’s also been multiple textile reactions to 911. I’m not even going into all of the ideas of blindfolds, gags, masks, corsets, foot bindings which tell a more violent story. But for you, Nicole, how does bringing the textiles and technology together sort of enhance, widen, deepen, I guess, the storytelling possibilities?
Nicole: Part of our work at Craftwork is we’re always thinking about how to kind of reimagine how textiles have always told stories across time and space. And so, we’re making oftentimes modern precedents of things that have already been made.
So, for example, we have a project called Ancient Futures where you could walk up to this textile that is woven with fiber optics, and you could tell it a secret or a story, and it would reflect back in light. And the, like, inspiration for this is how textiles have always held secrets, for example, people used to, knit secrets or messages into mittens during World War II.
For us, textiles is really kind of like a soft medium. So much of technology or interactive things today happen on a screen, and textiles help us bring something that’s a bit warmer and softer into these spaces.
Brenda: Is it possible for you to even separate the two? So, specifically, is there something about technology and just technology in and of itself that really excites you right now and then is there something about textiles and only textiles that’s exciting you right now?
Nicole: For me, I’m very unexcited about modern technologies right now. I think we’re seeing a lot of things on repeat, a lot of the same ideas, and it seems quite cyclical. And then whenever I’m doing something that’s textile based, I’m excited about it because it’s hands on, it’s usually something new that I’m learning. And then marrying the two is super exciting because we’re often creating novel materials, so like blending materials that aren’t found within the same space and really having to think about how these two different worlds can live together.
Abby: Do you think it’s because, you mentioned hard or plastic or digital or technology and how sort of that feels very rough or hard and then when you think about textiles, they feel softer. Do you think as people, as human beings, we like a bit of softness in our life.
Because I know when I was in your studio, I wanted to touch things. You had a beautiful merino wool hanging that may end up as a rug, and it was just the type of thing that you, it was soft and padded and squishy, and it was so, so nice. I wanted to walk on it. And so, textiles provide this emotional connection that isn’t in technology. I don’t feel the same—I get excited about technology—but I don’t want to touch it and squish it and being, surrounded by it. So, is there something about human nature that you think craves softness?
Nicole: I think people love texture and they love to touch things. And so, I think also when we think about textiles, it reminds us of home sometimes. There’s like less of a barrier to get through, so just thinking like instead of having a touch screen, what if that screen was soft or had some type of texture to it, I think it would be easier for people to engage with it.
Brenda: This is reminding me of, there’s an artist in the UK named Ellen Sampson, and she’s done a lot of research with touch and with clothing, and she talks a lot about how in her thinking, the desire to touch and to feel items of clothing specifically, has to do with the idea that our DNA is threaded within it, and the memories of people held within clothing is much like the DNA that we impart within clothing. It’s really, it’s, it’s fascinating stuff.
What do you think about that? Do you think about people wearing textiles as you’re making them? Do you think about that kind of human interrelationship and the idea that somebody’s body is really mingling with the work that you create?
Nicole: Yeah, sometimes with e-textiles, a lot of times you think about wearables and what it means to have something that’s interactive and soft on your body. I think for me and for us at Craftwork, we’re more excited about thinking about textiles as like an actual building block. And I think for a lot of people, the first thing when you think about textiles, you think about clothes, but actually, like you look around the room right now, how much textiles are around us? There’s textile on this mic, there’s textiles on the wall, and then just like making textile at an industrial scale to really be immersive in environments and in spaces.
Abby: One of the things, actually, you mentioned Ancient Futures, and I was in there and I saw a prototype. One of the things that I loved about it is this idea of being able to share a story and have the digital side create a color that represents that emotion of the story. So, if it was a happy story, it would be one color, neutral story, another, and then something maybe negative, not that I’d ever tell a negative story.
Brenda: Never.
Abby: That would be a be a third color. Can you talk a little bit about the genesis of this idea and what you’re hoping to achieve?
Nicole: Yeah. Craft has been such a space for community historically. And so, for us, we constantly think about that with our interactive pieces. And so, where there’s an ambient feeling to the textile, where there’s a light that’s changing, and the idea is that that light will be constantly changing and evolving with all the messages that are shared with it and in particular space, and the idea is that we could capture the overall feeling and the mood of a community. And then as this piece travels from location to location, we could capture many different communities through their stories and reflect that through something that’s not exactly just text or audio, but through something that’s more about creating a feeling within a location.
Brenda: Amazing,and a feeling that is a shared feeling. A feeling that is sort of like of many instead of just one. That’s lovely.
Abby: Yeah. Isn’t that absolutely incredible?
Brenda: Yeah.
Nicole: I think also like sometimes it can feel like in big cities you might be disconnected, but that as you see the stories that are collected, there tends to be like moods throughout the day and that there’s actually a connection between people, even within spaces.
Brenda: Nicole, I’m wondering, are there other projects in addition to Ancient Futures that sort of combines spoken word with technology, with textile and emotions? And are there other works that you can sort of share with us right now?
Nicole: Less about the spoken word, but we, we have another project in the studio that we’re very excited about where we’re exploring RFID systems as a mode of interaction. RFID systems are pervasive. We use them every day to like, swipe into buildings, but the magic of them is actually they both have antennas on them, and one powers the other, and you don’t actually have to touch them. You can make them hover against each other, and there’s actually like electricity moving through them. And so, we’ve thought about how do we put this system on our body and have people interact either with spaces or with each other through like simple hovering gestures? It’ll be like a little bit playful, a little bit awkward, but exploring like different modes of intimate interactions. So we’re really excited about that, and we’re excited about it because it’s also using like a low fi tech that’s very accessible, very easy to come by.
Brenda: Amazing. Where do these ideas come from?
Abby: Are you solving a problem first? And you’re like, I’m sick of RFIDs, and the way they’re so like this. Or are you just like musing in the shower or like, like, oh, maybe and so, yeah, where’s your inspiration coming from?
Nicole: I think a lot of the inspiration is through making. So, for the RFID tag thing, I had to one time make an RFID experience. The ones that we’ve all seen at museums and my RFID tags were on backorder. And so I was just like Google how I make an RFID tag and there’s just like this whole world of people making fun, quirky things with RFID tags. You can take copper tape, make an antenna, put a light bulb on it, and you don’t even need a battery to power it, you Just hover that over an RFID reader and it lights something up. And it’s those moments that feel, they feel magical.
Abby: I was going to say, do you know what makes it hard, though, when you think about pitching what you do to a client, must be difficult. What are some of the issues or some of the hurdles when you’re trying to explain to clients what you do and the different materiality, like, how are you solving this issue and what are some of the misconceptions people might have?
Nicole: I think some of the misconceptions are, technology and textiles, you do wearables. And we do do wearables. We can do wearables, but we do so much more than that. And then in terms of pitching, it’s really hard to capture textiles via photo, and then it’s really hard to capture textiles that are doing things computationally.
So, the best thing that we have found is to bring people to our space and then sometimes—we have a big materials library that we’ve organized, and we use that as a big tool when we’re talking to people. And if we go to someone oftentimes, we’ll bring like 1 or 2 of those cases that are full of swatches just to show the materiality, allow people to touch things and experience what a computational textile could be.
Brenda: Let’s talk about process. First, though, I want to ask you a question regarding as you are shaping a work and going through the process and you’re thinking about the story, do you like incorporate the audience or the end user at any point throughout the process, or is it something where you know you’ll work up to a certain point and then you’ll bring in that end user or the visitor or whatever the case might be. What does that process look like?
Nicole: Much of our making process is prototyping. A lot of the pieces we have out in the world, we call them prototypes. And so, we are constantly having an iterative process where we’re allowing the space, the pieces to live within a space and people to interact with it. And then going back to the drawing board and seeing how what we can change to make it a better experience. Better experience, meaning a lot of things. Maybe it’s sometimes messaging, sometimes it’s the interaction, sometimes it’s the design of it, like how it looks and feels.
Abby: Oh, that’s so interesting.
Brenda: We would love to know what your thoughts are regarding AI and what kind of technologies you might be using.
Nicole: We have been exploring AI. We’ve had a few projects where we’re thinking about AI as a collaborator. And also, have just explored how AI makes textiles, and it can’t. It’s so bad. You ask it to make a knitted structure and it cannot. And we’ve also tried to use it, like the great thing about it is it could be a rendering tool, right, for RFIPs and pitches—it is a bad rendering tool for textiles. It’s so bad we went all the way the other way and we’re having a storyboard artist help us make pencil renderings.
Brenda: There we go. This is where I get to interject some kind of romantic comment about the human hand.
What are you really passionate about right now, if you could pick one thing?
Nicole: I feel like Craftwork is, our studio is, my passion project right now. There’s not a lot of people really doing experiential design where they’re putting material research at the core of the things they do, and I think that in order to make more interesting, interactive pieces, we really need to have material research, material exploration, be a part of the design process, and for us, that is what excites us.
Abby: So, what’s the best way to work with you? Because you must be brought on sometimes at the very beginning, but sometimes probably towards the middle or even the fabrication stage, where they’re like, oh, how are we going to make this. Can you sort of talk to us about your process and then how you work in the larger project process?
Nicole: Much of our process follows, a similar path to a larger project in that we have an idea or concept and then we do design development. But I would say our design development is less based in like rendering and mockup worlds and actually prototyping and making it. I feel like a lot of the studios in experiential design were doing so much prototyping and then the like older I’ve gotten, the studios have moved away from it, and I think in order to make interesting work and really explore the possibilities of certain interactions and materials, you have to make things to figure it out. So, that’s a big part of our process. And then in terms of communicating that to a client, it’s like trying to find ways to document that constantly and capture that, and making that our 2D deliverable.
Abby: Yeah. That must be your biggest challenge in a way.
Brenda: Do you try to push to be a part of the earlier stages of the process?
Nicole: Yeah, ideally we’re part of concepting, so we can really flesh out the ideas together and build, build a creative trust because that’s, that’s a big hurdle. And we talked about this a bit. I think a lot of people are very excited about the new ideas, but then they want an example of it. It’s kind of like, well, we’re doing a new thing, so we don’t have an example and you kind of have to trust and it’s hard to build that trust. Yeah.
Brenda: It’s one of the things that we work with our students to try to really sort of teach them and enable them to be prepared for the, you know, inevitable question from a client, which is, day one, you’ve just met everybody: what’s it going to look like? And to fight against that, in, you know, a kind way, but to basically, for as long as humanly possible, not know what it is going to be, and it’s a tough, it’s a tough trick to teach a designer actually to, you know, not get visual for as long as possible and instead to really think about the story and the human factors and, you know, in the audience and so on and so forth, and it’s frustrating for, I know for a lot of the designers that I work with, it’s really frustrating to not know what it is.
What’s that process like for you? Do you get frustrated? You seem like you’re having too much fun to be a frustrated person.
Nicole: Do I get frustrated working with materials that don’t live within the same spaces? It’s so frustrating. But, as someone who’s done coding and hardware engineering, I feel like the biggest thing, and doing creative technology, so doing things that people don’t, haven’t done before is I have like a high amount of patience when things are broken. and I have this like, I can’t let it stay broken. So, I just keep going at it.
Brenda: It sounds like broken to you is an opportunity.
Nicole: Yes.
Abby: So, I would like, I’d like to ask you a question. What would you tell ten-year-old Nicole, if you could talk to her now, and here she is, ten-year-old Nicole, what would you say?
Nicole: I don’t know, I say this to my husband a lot, I say we’re living the dream, because New York can be hard and being a creative in New York can be hard. And I’m like you always have to remind yourself that, you know, in—to ten-year-old Nicole, in 25 years you’ll be living a dream.
Brenda: What’s coming up next? Can you talk about what, what we can expect from you in the near future?
Nicole: Yes. Craftwork is part of NEW INC. NEW INC is the design incubator at the New Museum. They work with artists, they work with studios, they work with a wide range of creative practitioners in helping them make their work more sustainably. So they’ll have a big festival called Demo Festival in June, and there will be a big, group exhibition, talks, presentations, and that is a big, kind of thing we’re looking forward to where we will have a large scale version of Ancient Futures that is up, down in Financial District.
Abby: Oh, fantastic.
Nicole: Yeah.
Brenda: That’s excellent.
Abby: Doesn’t that sound amazing, outside, see how it weathers the, because that was my other question was like textiles. I think we chatted textiles, water, like, are you dealing with waterproofing? Have you worked in water before, when you’re thinking about different elements?
Nicole: Yeah, we’ve dealt with waterproofing. And I think also when people think about textile, they think about it as a fragile thing, and actually there are industrial scale textiles. So thinking about whether it goes inside or outside, there really, there’s lots of possibilities there, and there’s lots of ways to treat textiles so that that might be stiffer in some parts, looser in others, so it has that flexibility, but that there’s, there’s different scales of what a textile can be.
I think the biggest thing is just, thinking about textiles as a building block is is a big thing for us. And I think it would be great if designers and everyone thought about that more. We would have such a richer, richer architecture, richer spatial design if we folded textiles in in a way that we fold technology or hard materials into things.
Abby: And for me, it kind of feels like one of those, why aren’t we doing it already? You know, like, yeah, of course, it should be part of our training, the training of students.
Brenda: Is it expensive? If I were looking to create some fabric architecture for space and stuff, does that like, are the budgeting conversations on a really crazy level or how accessible financially is this kind of technology?
Nicole: I think there are different scales, right? We were just talking about, this was for an exhibition, they’re going to put up drywall. We were like, we could put up fabric scrims instead, and the difference is, not crazy different.
Brenda: Right, negligible.
Nicole: Yeah.
Brenda: That’s really good to know and that, because that’s like the first question that I know always comes in. And it sounds like, you know, it might be really expensive, but it’s really nice to know that it’s scalable.
Abby: And long lasting, right? There’s a misconception that material will just wither away and disappear. But it lasts just as long in some cases, right?
Nicole: Yeah. And also, if you think about the amount of, like, money that goes into technology, if we could just think of textiles as technology, the amount of money to build something that’s textile and interactive would not be more expensive than something that’s hardened technology.
Abby: Just the plastics industry will be weeping.
Nicole: Yeah.
Abby: Which wouldn’t be a bad thing right. Exactly. Nicole thank you so much for opening up this window on textiles and technology and sharing your vision and experiences with us today. I hope everybody enjoyed listening. It was absolutely incredible.
Brenda: Amazing.
Abby: And thanks to everyone who tuned in. If you like what you heard, subscribe for more episodes of Matters of Experience, wherever you listen to podcasts. Make sure to leave a rating and a review and share with a friend. See you next time!
Brenda: Thank you everyone. Thank you, Nicole.
Nicole: Thank you.
[Music]
Producer: Matters of Experience is produced by Lorem Ipsum Corp and recorded at Hangar Studios. Tune in next time for more fun discussions about experience design.
Textiles and Technology with Nicole Yi Messier
Being Successful While Balancing it All with Trent Oliver
Injection Simulator – Ipsen Biopharmaceuticals
National Women’s History Museum and Blue Telescope Named 2023 Gold Winner
[Music]
Abby: Welcome to Matters of Experience, a podcast produced by Lorem Ipsum, an experience design company headquartered in New York City. Our podcast explores the creativity, innovation and psychology driving designed experiences and encounters. Thanks for tuning in today and supporting our conversation. My name is Abigail Honor.
Brenda: Hello, this is Brenda Cowan.
Abby: So today we’re focusing on a woman who has done it all in our industry and finding out what some of her challenges were professionally and personally, as her career has gone from strength to strength. It is a pleasure to welcome Trent Oliver, the principal and managing director of Blue Telescope.
BT, as it’s fondly referred to, creates location-based, interactive experiences for museums, executive briefing centers, and brand experiences. Trent has a desire to blur the lines between reality and technology, in honor of the good, Well, Trent, a big welcome to the studio today.
Trent: Thank you. I’m glad to be here.
Brenda: Trent, I’m going to kick us off focusing on your incredible history of work in interactive experience design technology, entertainment, leadership. Abby and I would love to know what on earth attracted you to this industry in the first place, and as I was thinking about this question, I was thinking about how so many of us in this dynamic profession find ourselves here, having come from totally, seemingly unrelated backgrounds or just plain weird lines of work, right? Really weird. And the attraction in experience design to me anyway, is that everything seems to apply.
Trent: Yeah.
Brenda: And there seem to be no limits in either direction. So, I’m curious to know, is that your take also and what brought you here?
Trent: I was in theater. I was a stage manager. I moved up, I became an equity stage manager, and it occurred to me I could stage manage the best show ever, and it could still be terrible. I could be well run, yet terrible. And I found myself in commercials in LA. I found myself doing corporate theater here in New York, and I would interview here and there, I did videos, I did film, and I saw a little car go across the screen. And this is a very long time ago. This is pre-2000. And I was like, oh, how’d you do that. And I was like, that’s cool. I want to figure that out.
I got lucky. I started telling my clients back then when I was a producer, don’t call me unless you don’t know how to do it. If you don’t know how to do it, I’m interested. If you know how to do it, call somebody else. They can dance faster. I don’t want to dance faster. And I found myself owning a company, and we ended up doing interactive multimedia. And then wandered my way. I mean, I couldn’t have aimed for it.
Abby: You know what I was going to say? One of the things that really resonated with me is when Trent, you said that if you can’t do it, if a client can’t do it, you wanted them to call you. What do you think that is, that, not being scared to help people solve problems that you don’t have the answer to? What is it about that in you that motivates you?
Trent: I always found that when I wanted to learn something I’d go get a job doing it. Nothing makes you learn it faster than, oh dear God, I might get fired, you know, like, oh, if this doesn’t work, I’ve got a problem. But diving in and going to the best people you can find that do that and interviewing them, it’s phenomenal. They’re not worried about you. You’re not going to take their job and they’ll give you great advice. And I like learning. Learning’s great. If I weren’t learning, I would probably blow up my career and run away.
Abby: So just jumping back then into this idea that our industry is very multidisciplinary, not only for the people and where they’re coming from as they come into our industry, but sort of, the way that we need to have multiple people from lots of different disciplines sitting around the table to be able to do what we do really well. You need everybody there and I remember thinking as I was growing up, well, I’ve got a broad interest in lots of things. I like to do this, the painting, the video, the sound, the music. But thinking about my growth and how I ended up here, it helps to have mentors.
Trent: Yeah.
Abby: Did anyone ever mentor you along your road to success and how did it help you? At the time?
Trent: I would just go find people who were good at—like I didn’t know how to make a DVD. I called up a friend and said, let me take you to lunch and pick your brain. I joined, back when it existed, the Inc. Business Owners Council, because I was like, all right, I own a business. Do I know what I’m doing? I don’t know, and that was really interesting to learn that businesses all have the same problems, everybody has employees, overhead, health care. They’re all dealing with the same problems. And it’s useful to talk about those problems and hear from others that have found a way.
Brenda: Well, I want to pick up, and move along a little bit more of the conversation about mentorship, because I know that you yourself see mentorship and being a mentor as very important. And, you have been an advisor for an organization called Harriet’s Descendants, and the organization, folks, if you don’t know what it is, it mentors the next generation of themed entertainment leadership to embrace, engage in the work of equity, access and justice and mindfully expand representation, inclusion and diversity within guest experiences and creative works. And they’ve got this great tagline, which is, “think of us as a feminist, intersectional Dumbledore’s Army of themed entertainment.” I’m looking at you laugh, Trent, did you know that this was one of the taglines?
Trent: No.
Brenda: You must tell us how did you get involved with this organization, as a mentor, as an advisor.
Trent: Cynthia Sharpe is a principal at Thinkwell, and she’s a very creative, very opinionated, intelligent woman. And she and I were having a big discussion around 2016, and we had very strong feelings and this is what came out of that. One of the first years we went to IAPA and we had this interesting kind of round robin talk about like how, how can you go forward as a woman? Women haven’t been in the workforce that long. We don’t have, a lot of times, mothers that did it before. We don’t know how to go forward and how to make it not personal but breaking it down and making it kind of more of a math problem and not a personal problem.
But I will say that it’s something that all people should be involved in. If we are really looking at finances, adding half of the citizenry into the economics, adding people that we don’t see, that don’t look like us, that, you know, they’re not part of our everyday experience into what we’re doing. We’re going to expand our audience. That’s going to make everybody more money. So even if you are against it, it will make you money. And I think that financial case is a good thing to put forward when people don’t agree with just kind of the basic idea.
Abby: Why is it called Harriet’s Descendants?
Trent: It’s after the first female animator at Disney.
Abby: Oh, wow. I did not know that.
So, you started talking about women, so I’m going to keep going. I played, like, a lot of sport in school, and often we trained with guys, right, and I learned that you need to be agile and strategic if you’re really going to have success when you’re playing with the boys. And so, Trent, as the principal and managing director of Blue Telescope, tell us about being a woman in a leadership position in this largely male dominated industry, and do you have any stories to share or things that you had to overcome.
Trent: I never walk in thinking, oh, I’m a woman here. My mother told me I was smart. Whether I am or not, my mommy told me, therefore I believe it. And I’ll walk into anywhere thinking I should be here. It’s taken years to get that, and I often am clueless when I’m faced with either, you know, a male who isn’t enjoying a female having a conversation with him, or other women who kind of—there’s games in the playground that I never learned.
And then there have been times where it’s been overtly bad. We used to have a large client, the biggest pharmaceutical client in the world at that time, and I was at a conference and ended up with someone who could have put us out of business, got off the elevator behind me on my floor, and ended up having a full-on wrestling match. And I got lucky. I got my door open and got myself in and slammed the door and he wasn’t inside. And I was furious. I was furious for years. I could do nothing about it. There was nothing I could do. And that’s crazy.
That was the most over. You know, coming up in my life, there was lots of crap. I remember also after then a partner, a fabrication house that we partnered with, I had hired, a man from another company, and I brought him with me. We went to go talk to this fabrication partner. Suddenly, I didn’t exist. And, you know, they had a complete conversation, and I didn’t matter. And I was like, wow, this is very interesting. And also having the name Trent, quite often people will say, oh, Trent, he and I go way back, and I would just grab a guy and say, here, you talk to him and I’m out of here.
I keep thinking it changes and it kind of does, but it kind of really doesn’t.
Brenda: Yeah.
Abby: I totally agree. How do you, how do you see leadership? What are you aiming to be? Or at least, let’s say your colleagues think about you as a leader, what sort of things do you want them to say?
Trent: That I have their back. We’re selling a service, yes. Our service is out people, and our people need to feel that they matter. If you don’t feel like you’re important in your job, you slack off, you stop coming in. It’s not that important. And the people who feel that way shouldn’t work for us. But its helping people go to the next level. It’s picking the right people and putting them together to create. And I tell everybody, being a stage manager, taught me to enable creative people to do what they need to do.
Abby: How do you teach this, Brenda? So, when you’ve got a room full of all these amazing students, how do you teach leadership?
Brenda: I teach leadership by teaching how to listen, how to speak even when you don’t want to speak or you’re not sure what you’re about to say. I think that a lot of the leadership skills that I really break down with my students have to do with being able to have really challenging conversations and to listen and to be engaged and to be mindful.
As I’m listening to the two of you, Abby and Trent and we were talking about mentorships and important people in our lives, and I have to share a story of when I was 30 years old, and I just had my daughter and I had a friend, and she was 88, and Kathryn had been a fashion model in the 1930s. This woman had moxie. I think the word was invented for her. And spending time with her always involved smoking cigarettes, drinking beer and talking about men and talking about being a woman. And I’m getting a crazy flashback to that right now. And outside of, you know, her, endless words of wisdom, one quip of which involved her saying, “Brenda, let me tell you something. The legs, they’re the last thing to go.”
But more seriously, she would tell me, get out there and talk, and she would say, no one’s going to listen if you don’t talk, and so in a way, to your point, you know, when you asked a question about how I teach leadership, it really is about those conversational skills. And it might sound feeble but if you really look around you and if you really watch people and if you really watch the dynamics, it’s the people who, yes, can talk, but the people who have the skill of listening, they’re the people who go far.
I want to sort of extend this conversation about womanhood by bringing up the next absolutely obvious talking point, which is going to be about family, because this just seems inevitable in a way. You know, before I was a professor, I was in practice, for many years and raising a family and traveling constantly, working far too many hours. How’s this sounding, my friends?
Trent: Yeah.
Brenda: Yeah, sounding about right. So, I also ran a company which meant that I was always on the front line when things needed to get decided upon, when things needed to get done, and when I was interviewed for my current position, this professorship, one of the questions that I was asked was how I would feel about not traveling so much, about how would I feel about not being in the action and everything else. And they were really genuinely concerned about this. And I swear to God, I practically choked back tears. And like the idea was such a relief. And so, Trent, you’ve got a family of your own and your very busy, active position at Blue Telescope. How have you managed to balance your work and your life?
Trent: I don’t know that I do.
Brenda: Tell us more.
Trent: Becoming a parent was a lesson in futility. You can’t do anything completely, Just can’t. I can’t be there to be the perfect mother. There is no such thing. I can’t be at work and, you know, be a workaholic because I need to go home. You know, there’s so many things that when I was freelance and I was single, it was like, oh, I dove in, I did it completely, I walked away, I was done.
We’re 24 years old, the company is, and I haven’t finished anything completely in 24 years. But I read this amazing article from a woman who said, don’t give up. At the time, there’s so many women who would have kids and they’d leave the workforce and they felt that, you want to be there for your family, you want to participate. You had kids because you wanted them, not because you wanted to leave them behind, but that continuing down the work path and becoming really successful, she was like, I have been allowed to take my family on amazing trips. I have been able to do all these things for my kids. I’ve also been able to go to their recitals, and I think that that’s really important. I have not made everything my kids have done. I’ve made a lot of them. But my daughter will tell you I wasn’t there.
Abby: They’ll remember that one time.
Brenda: That one time, forever.
Trent: Yeah. But, at a certain point, it was either I was home, or my husband was home. And travel comes and you do it. And then you come home, and my kids have gone with me and set up a booth, you know, I took my daughter to Munich because I had to go there, and it was like, you’re coming with me. Now, that’s amazing.
Brenda: That really is.
Trent: That’s amazing.
Brenda: It’s important. Let’s take a little pivot. Let’s talk about Praxis. So, dear listeners, Praxis is a consultation group of industry practitioners, and they provide this comprehensive list of services in exhibition development and design, media, software, hardware, interpretive and master planning, and so much more. And as a part of your work, Trent, you’ve recently put together a survey of best practices on how new technologies can help us navigate the new challenges our profession is facing. What are some of the challenges that technology is addressing and how is it that technology addresses them best?
Trent: Everybody, you know, they’re like, oh, tell me your offering, what’s your latest technology? And it’s like, throw that out. That has nothing to do with anything. We have to figure out why. Why are you doing this? What is it, what is the kernel of what you want people to do, feel, think, you know, how do you get to them emotionally? What is that? And then once we know why, there are a million ways to figure out the how. And technology is a tool. It’s a hammer. It’s a nail. It’s you know, okay, a touch screen, not that anybody needs more screens in their lives, but how can we find ways to spark joy, to educate, to surprise, to have fun? You know, fun is a perfectly good why. Looking cool is not a good why, because that will fade very quickly.
And the technology, it’s just going to keep rolling. I don’t think we’re surprised where it’s going. Okay, Apple Vision Pro, all right. It hurts my head. Yeah. the HoloLens was quite good also, but the idea of AR, augmented reality, virtual reality. AI is remarkable. I think that it’s going to be the most fascinating thing in our lives. I think it’s going to be good and bad. And I think it’s really interesting and I’m happy to watch it.
All of these things will happen, but they aren’t the important part. How can we use technology to help all of us go forward? And how can we create things that are useful?
Brenda: Do you happen to have a personal favorite that you’ve done over the years that, Blue Telescope has produced?
Trent: We created an injection simulator for Ipsen Pharmaceuticals. I got to say, it’s really cool. That is really cool.
Brenda: Oh, wait, what is an injection simulator?
Trent: It’s actually, it’s a physical device. Here’s a bust of a human. And around the neck and shoulders is a silicone shawl, that you would use, you know, that’s like a medical dummy. And you pick up a real syringe that’s of course, attached, and you pull it back as if you’re filling it with medicine. But on the screen in front of you, it shows the medicine going in. And as you go to inject, it will tell you here’s the muscles you’re trying to hit. Did you hit them? Yes. How much medicine did you put in and how much went wild. And it’s very specific and it’s very accurate. And I think that’s really cool. That’s a nice invention.
Brenda: Yeah. And frankly, strangely compelling. Abby, would you want to give someone an injection?
Abby: I would love to do that. You used the word specific. I want to pick up on that, because a lot of the things that I’ve seen of your work have to be specific to be successful. I think it’s a challenge to try to bring that to a visitor who maybe doesn’t have the background. And, our job, in a way, is to try and frame the interactive or the exhibit moment, and I find that really sometimes a challenge, right? To put the context around this moment that you’re doing in this case, you know, injecting like, why am I doing it? How does it help? Why is this cool and all the other reasons.
whil
And so how do you go about your process? You’re obviously not focusing on the technology first, which I completely agree with. I think that’s wonderful. You’re listening to what the client needs are, but how are you planning out, can you just try to paint a picture of how you come up with an exhibit idea.
Trent: I don’t know. A long time ago, we used to do a lot of pharmaceutical trade shows, and we used to say, you need to be able to see it from far away and know there’s something interesting. So, a big, then a medium when you’re there, something that most people will do that engages and is interesting but allows those people who are really the nerds to dive in and really go to it. And I think the same is true for museums.
You have to be a little puzzling. What is that? Why is that? And go there and have it be interesting that even if I don’t know, it’s kind of fun. Let me check this out. Maybe I’ll learn something. You know, you learn stuff just by watching, you know, and there are people who aren’t going to interact. Are they still going to get stuff? Hopefully they will, but allow there to be enough content for the nerds to dive in because, you know, everybody should get to. But it does have to be something that’s accessible to everyone.
Abby: So, some of your work with exhibit experiences, really focuses on the visitor. How important for you is the visitor when you think about your strategy for design?
Trent: I think that’s the key. I mean, it doesn’t make any sense otherwise. Whatever you’re designing, if you’ve got the why, you got to know who is coming through and make sure that they feel they’re represented.
I have a pet peeve that sometimes museums kind of live in rarefied air and I’ve been in discussions in a big round table where everybody is extremely educated and really smart and coming up with really good points, but they’re missing the undereducated. And if you’re going to speak to people who maybe don’t have a master’s and a PhD, you have to have people in the room that also don’t have a master’s and a PhD so that you can speak to them. You know, if you want to speak to people as a community, you have to bring the community in.
We did a project recently and it was on black feminism. We were lucky enough that Tessellate brought us in for Women’s History Museum, and we got to create the interactives that they designed. We brought black feminists to the table to do the work because I can’t speak to anybody else’s experience but my own and I believe everybody should feel that.
Abby: Good for you. That’s fantastic that you did that.
So, let’s chat a bit about AI because you touched earlier. How do you see museums of the future? Do you think that they will be heavily designed with the use of AI? Do you think a lot of our industry will become obsolete?
Trent: Have you seen the meme that as long as clients don’t know what they want, our jobs are secure? I don’t know for sure. Yes, some jobs will become a little obsolete, but, like, AI takes all our meeting notes. How fantastic is that? If you need to create—all right, I need a picture, kind of like this, kind of like that. I personally can still see when it’s AI, and I’m like, eh, but sometimes it can give you an idea of where you’re trying to go. And maybe it can cut down some of your discussions of like, do you mean this, do you mean that, you know, and then go to the people to create it. Authentic human experiences, I think are going to be very important. I think we’ll know the difference. I’m fascinated to see where it goes. I could see where terrible things could happen, and I could also see where amazing things could happen.
Abby: Well, that sounds like the fate of human nature.
Trent: Yeah.
Abby: The good and the bad.
Brenda: Well, I want to know, Trent, what is it that you’re currently passionate about in this big world of yours? What is it that you’re just really excited to be showing up for every day?
Trent: Blue Telescope is the Rubik’s cube I get up and I work on every day. Now, I know I should have solved it by now, but it’s interesting. What’s the right blend of jobs? You know, we need to have stuff we care deeply about because that’s why we get up in the morning. But we also need to have stuff that’s fun, fast and profitable because without profit, you can’t do the stuff you care about. It’s kind of like, I’ve heard flying a helicopter, you’re constantly moving, you can’t stop your hands because you’re constantly doing it. And I feel like that.
Brenda: Well, I know what you’ve got to do next, okay, being that you are willing to keep learning and interested in constantly learning new things, and you clearly have the ability to be in endless motion, right, all the time. It is time for you, Trent Oliver, to learn how to fly a helicopter.
Trent: Oh no, no.
Abby: Yes, I second that notion.
Brenda: You heard it here first.
Abby: Yeah, yeah. Trent, up in the air.
Trent: When I was young, I was never afraid of heights. I was never afraid of rollercoasters, any of it. Now I’m like, oh no, no, no, I couldn’t. If I got four feet off the ground, I’d be scared.
Abby: I think it’s something, yes, it’s something to do with aging, and the fear starts to kick in.
Trent: Yeah. Something in your head. You get dizzy.
Abby: Another biological thing that happens as we age.
Brenda: Oh, here we go. And, well, that’s another whole podcast.
Abby: Well, Trent, I cannot thank you enough for coming on today and sharing some of your experiences.
Trent: What a fun thing.
Abby: It’s been really—I feel like I’ve met a kindred spirit.
Trent: Oh, me too. This is great.
Abby: Yeah. This has been amazing. Thank you so much.
Brenda: Thank you so much, Trent.
Trent: Thank you.
Abby: And thanks to everyone who tuned in today. If you like what you heard, subscribe for more episodes of Matters of Experience, wherever you listen to podcasts, and make sure to leave a rating and a review and share with a friend. We’ll see you next time.
Brenda: Thanks everyone!
Trent: Bye.
[Music]
Producer: Matters of Experience is produced by Lorem Ipsum Corp and recorded at Hangar Studios. Tune in next time for more fun discussions about experience design.
Injection Simulator – Ipsen Biopharmaceuticals
National Women’s History Museum and Blue Telescope Named 2023 Gold Winner
[Music]
Abby: Welcome to Matters of Experience, a podcast produced by Lorem Ipsum, an experience design company headquartered in New York City. Our podcast explores the creativity, innovation and psychology driving designed experiences and encounters. Thanks for tuning in today and supporting our conversation. My name is Abigail Honor.
Brenda: Hello, this is Brenda Cowan.
Abby: So today we’re focusing on a woman who has done it all in our industry and finding out what some of her challenges were professionally and personally, as her career has gone from strength to strength. It is a pleasure to welcome Trent Oliver, the principal and managing director of Blue Telescope.
BT, as it’s fondly referred to, creates location-based, interactive experiences for museums, executive briefing centers, and brand experiences. Trent has a desire to blur the lines between reality and technology, in honor of the good, Well, Trent, a big welcome to the studio today.
Trent: Thank you. I’m glad to be here.
Brenda: Trent, I’m going to kick us off focusing on your incredible history of work in interactive experience design technology, entertainment, leadership. Abby and I would love to know what on earth attracted you to this industry in the first place, and as I was thinking about this question, I was thinking about how so many of us in this dynamic profession find ourselves here, having come from totally, seemingly unrelated backgrounds or just plain weird lines of work, right? Really weird. And the attraction in experience design to me anyway, is that everything seems to apply.
Trent: Yeah.
Brenda: And there seem to be no limits in either direction. So, I’m curious to know, is that your take also and what brought you here?
Trent: I was in theater. I was a stage manager. I moved up, I became an equity stage manager, and it occurred to me I could stage manage the best show ever, and it could still be terrible. I could be well run, yet terrible. And I found myself in commercials in LA. I found myself doing corporate theater here in New York, and I would interview here and there, I did videos, I did film, and I saw a little car go across the screen. And this is a very long time ago. This is pre-2000. And I was like, oh, how’d you do that. And I was like, that’s cool. I want to figure that out.
I got lucky. I started telling my clients back then when I was a producer, don’t call me unless you don’t know how to do it. If you don’t know how to do it, I’m interested. If you know how to do it, call somebody else. They can dance faster. I don’t want to dance faster. And I found myself owning a company, and we ended up doing interactive multimedia. And then wandered my way. I mean, I couldn’t have aimed for it.
Abby: You know what I was going to say? One of the things that really resonated with me is when Trent, you said that if you can’t do it, if a client can’t do it, you wanted them to call you. What do you think that is, that, not being scared to help people solve problems that you don’t have the answer to? What is it about that in you that motivates you?
Trent: I always found that when I wanted to learn something I’d go get a job doing it. Nothing makes you learn it faster than, oh dear God, I might get fired, you know, like, oh, if this doesn’t work, I’ve got a problem. But diving in and going to the best people you can find that do that and interviewing them, it’s phenomenal. They’re not worried about you. You’re not going to take their job and they’ll give you great advice. And I like learning. Learning’s great. If I weren’t learning, I would probably blow up my career and run away.
Abby: So just jumping back then into this idea that our industry is very multidisciplinary, not only for the people and where they’re coming from as they come into our industry, but sort of, the way that we need to have multiple people from lots of different disciplines sitting around the table to be able to do what we do really well. You need everybody there and I remember thinking as I was growing up, well, I’ve got a broad interest in lots of things. I like to do this, the painting, the video, the sound, the music. But thinking about my growth and how I ended up here, it helps to have mentors.
Trent: Yeah.
Abby: Did anyone ever mentor you along your road to success and how did it help you? At the time?
Trent: I would just go find people who were good at—like I didn’t know how to make a DVD. I called up a friend and said, let me take you to lunch and pick your brain. I joined, back when it existed, the Inc. Business Owners Council, because I was like, all right, I own a business. Do I know what I’m doing? I don’t know, and that was really interesting to learn that businesses all have the same problems, everybody has employees, overhead, health care. They’re all dealing with the same problems. And it’s useful to talk about those problems and hear from others that have found a way.
Brenda: Well, I want to pick up, and move along a little bit more of the conversation about mentorship, because I know that you yourself see mentorship and being a mentor as very important. And, you have been an advisor for an organization called Harriet’s Descendants, and the organization, folks, if you don’t know what it is, it mentors the next generation of themed entertainment leadership to embrace, engage in the work of equity, access and justice and mindfully expand representation, inclusion and diversity within guest experiences and creative works. And they’ve got this great tagline, which is, “think of us as a feminist, intersectional Dumbledore’s Army of themed entertainment.” I’m looking at you laugh, Trent, did you know that this was one of the taglines?
Trent: No.
Brenda: You must tell us how did you get involved with this organization, as a mentor, as an advisor.
Trent: Cynthia Sharpe is a principal at Thinkwell, and she’s a very creative, very opinionated, intelligent woman. And she and I were having a big discussion around 2016, and we had very strong feelings and this is what came out of that. One of the first years we went to IAPA and we had this interesting kind of round robin talk about like how, how can you go forward as a woman? Women haven’t been in the workforce that long. We don’t have, a lot of times, mothers that did it before. We don’t know how to go forward and how to make it not personal but breaking it down and making it kind of more of a math problem and not a personal problem.
But I will say that it’s something that all people should be involved in. If we are really looking at finances, adding half of the citizenry into the economics, adding people that we don’t see, that don’t look like us, that, you know, they’re not part of our everyday experience into what we’re doing. We’re going to expand our audience. That’s going to make everybody more money. So even if you are against it, it will make you money. And I think that financial case is a good thing to put forward when people don’t agree with just kind of the basic idea.
Abby: Why is it called Harriet’s Descendants?
Trent: It’s after the first female animator at Disney.
Abby: Oh, wow. I did not know that.
So, you started talking about women, so I’m going to keep going. I played, like, a lot of sport in school, and often we trained with guys, right, and I learned that you need to be agile and strategic if you’re really going to have success when you’re playing with the boys. And so, Trent, as the principal and managing director of Blue Telescope, tell us about being a woman in a leadership position in this largely male dominated industry, and do you have any stories to share or things that you had to overcome.
Trent: I never walk in thinking, oh, I’m a woman here. My mother told me I was smart. Whether I am or not, my mommy told me, therefore I believe it. And I’ll walk into anywhere thinking I should be here. It’s taken years to get that, and I often am clueless when I’m faced with either, you know, a male who isn’t enjoying a female having a conversation with him, or other women who kind of—there’s games in the playground that I never learned.
And then there have been times where it’s been overtly bad. We used to have a large client, the biggest pharmaceutical client in the world at that time, and I was at a conference and ended up with someone who could have put us out of business, got off the elevator behind me on my floor, and ended up having a full-on wrestling match. And I got lucky. I got my door open and got myself in and slammed the door and he wasn’t inside. And I was furious. I was furious for years. I could do nothing about it. There was nothing I could do. And that’s crazy.
That was the most over. You know, coming up in my life, there was lots of crap. I remember also after then a partner, a fabrication house that we partnered with, I had hired, a man from another company, and I brought him with me. We went to go talk to this fabrication partner. Suddenly, I didn’t exist. And, you know, they had a complete conversation, and I didn’t matter. And I was like, wow, this is very interesting. And also having the name Trent, quite often people will say, oh, Trent, he and I go way back, and I would just grab a guy and say, here, you talk to him and I’m out of here.
I keep thinking it changes and it kind of does, but it kind of really doesn’t.
Brenda: Yeah.
Abby: I totally agree. How do you, how do you see leadership? What are you aiming to be? Or at least, let’s say your colleagues think about you as a leader, what sort of things do you want them to say?
Trent: That I have their back. We’re selling a service, yes. Our service is out people, and our people need to feel that they matter. If you don’t feel like you’re important in your job, you slack off, you stop coming in. It’s not that important. And the people who feel that way shouldn’t work for us. But its helping people go to the next level. It’s picking the right people and putting them together to create. And I tell everybody, being a stage manager, taught me to enable creative people to do what they need to do.
Abby: How do you teach this, Brenda? So, when you’ve got a room full of all these amazing students, how do you teach leadership?
Brenda: I teach leadership by teaching how to listen, how to speak even when you don’t want to speak or you’re not sure what you’re about to say. I think that a lot of the leadership skills that I really break down with my students have to do with being able to have really challenging conversations and to listen and to be engaged and to be mindful.
As I’m listening to the two of you, Abby and Trent and we were talking about mentorships and important people in our lives, and I have to share a story of when I was 30 years old, and I just had my daughter and I had a friend, and she was 88, and Kathryn had been a fashion model in the 1930s. This woman had moxie. I think the word was invented for her. And spending time with her always involved smoking cigarettes, drinking beer and talking about men and talking about being a woman. And I’m getting a crazy flashback to that right now. And outside of, you know, her, endless words of wisdom, one quip of which involved her saying, “Brenda, let me tell you something. The legs, they’re the last thing to go.”
But more seriously, she would tell me, get out there and talk, and she would say, no one’s going to listen if you don’t talk, and so in a way, to your point, you know, when you asked a question about how I teach leadership, it really is about those conversational skills. And it might sound feeble but if you really look around you and if you really watch people and if you really watch the dynamics, it’s the people who, yes, can talk, but the people who have the skill of listening, they’re the people who go far.
I want to sort of extend this conversation about womanhood by bringing up the next absolutely obvious talking point, which is going to be about family, because this just seems inevitable in a way. You know, before I was a professor, I was in practice, for many years and raising a family and traveling constantly, working far too many hours. How’s this sounding, my friends?
Trent: Yeah.
Brenda: Yeah, sounding about right. So, I also ran a company which meant that I was always on the front line when things needed to get decided upon, when things needed to get done, and when I was interviewed for my current position, this professorship, one of the questions that I was asked was how I would feel about not traveling so much, about how would I feel about not being in the action and everything else. And they were really genuinely concerned about this. And I swear to God, I practically choked back tears. And like the idea was such a relief. And so, Trent, you’ve got a family of your own and your very busy, active position at Blue Telescope. How have you managed to balance your work and your life?
Trent: I don’t know that I do.
Brenda: Tell us more.
Trent: Becoming a parent was a lesson in futility. You can’t do anything completely, Just can’t. I can’t be there to be the perfect mother. There is no such thing. I can’t be at work and, you know, be a workaholic because I need to go home. You know, there’s so many things that when I was freelance and I was single, it was like, oh, I dove in, I did it completely, I walked away, I was done.
We’re 24 years old, the company is, and I haven’t finished anything completely in 24 years. But I read this amazing article from a woman who said, don’t give up. At the time, there’s so many women who would have kids and they’d leave the workforce and they felt that, you want to be there for your family, you want to participate. You had kids because you wanted them, not because you wanted to leave them behind, but that continuing down the work path and becoming really successful, she was like, I have been allowed to take my family on amazing trips. I have been able to do all these things for my kids. I’ve also been able to go to their recitals, and I think that that’s really important. I have not made everything my kids have done. I’ve made a lot of them. But my daughter will tell you I wasn’t there.
Abby: They’ll remember that one time.
Brenda: That one time, forever.
Trent: Yeah. But, at a certain point, it was either I was home, or my husband was home. And travel comes and you do it. And then you come home, and my kids have gone with me and set up a booth, you know, I took my daughter to Munich because I had to go there, and it was like, you’re coming with me. Now, that’s amazing.
Brenda: That really is.
Trent: That’s amazing.
Brenda: It’s important. Let’s take a little pivot. Let’s talk about Praxis. So, dear listeners, Praxis is a consultation group of industry practitioners, and they provide this comprehensive list of services in exhibition development and design, media, software, hardware, interpretive and master planning, and so much more. And as a part of your work, Trent, you’ve recently put together a survey of best practices on how new technologies can help us navigate the new challenges our profession is facing. What are some of the challenges that technology is addressing and how is it that technology addresses them best?
Trent: Everybody, you know, they’re like, oh, tell me your offering, what’s your latest technology? And it’s like, throw that out. That has nothing to do with anything. We have to figure out why. Why are you doing this? What is it, what is the kernel of what you want people to do, feel, think, you know, how do you get to them emotionally? What is that? And then once we know why, there are a million ways to figure out the how. And technology is a tool. It’s a hammer. It’s a nail. It’s you know, okay, a touch screen, not that anybody needs more screens in their lives, but how can we find ways to spark joy, to educate, to surprise, to have fun? You know, fun is a perfectly good why. Looking cool is not a good why, because that will fade very quickly.
And the technology, it’s just going to keep rolling. I don’t think we’re surprised where it’s going. Okay, Apple Vision Pro, all right. It hurts my head. Yeah. the HoloLens was quite good also, but the idea of AR, augmented reality, virtual reality. AI is remarkable. I think that it’s going to be the most fascinating thing in our lives. I think it’s going to be good and bad. And I think it’s really interesting and I’m happy to watch it.
All of these things will happen, but they aren’t the important part. How can we use technology to help all of us go forward? And how can we create things that are useful?
Brenda: Do you happen to have a personal favorite that you’ve done over the years that, Blue Telescope has produced?
Trent: We created an injection simulator for Ipsen Pharmaceuticals. I got to say, it’s really cool. That is really cool.
Brenda: Oh, wait, what is an injection simulator?
Trent: It’s actually, it’s a physical device. Here’s a bust of a human. And around the neck and shoulders is a silicone shawl, that you would use, you know, that’s like a medical dummy. And you pick up a real syringe that’s of course, attached, and you pull it back as if you’re filling it with medicine. But on the screen in front of you, it shows the medicine going in. And as you go to inject, it will tell you here’s the muscles you’re trying to hit. Did you hit them? Yes. How much medicine did you put in and how much went wild. And it’s very specific and it’s very accurate. And I think that’s really cool. That’s a nice invention.
Brenda: Yeah. And frankly, strangely compelling. Abby, would you want to give someone an injection?
Abby: I would love to do that. You used the word specific. I want to pick up on that, because a lot of the things that I’ve seen of your work have to be specific to be successful. I think it’s a challenge to try to bring that to a visitor who maybe doesn’t have the background. And, our job, in a way, is to try and frame the interactive or the exhibit moment, and I find that really sometimes a challenge, right? To put the context around this moment that you’re doing in this case, you know, injecting like, why am I doing it? How does it help? Why is this cool and all the other reasons.
whil
And so how do you go about your process? You’re obviously not focusing on the technology first, which I completely agree with. I think that’s wonderful. You’re listening to what the client needs are, but how are you planning out, can you just try to paint a picture of how you come up with an exhibit idea.
Trent: I don’t know. A long time ago, we used to do a lot of pharmaceutical trade shows, and we used to say, you need to be able to see it from far away and know there’s something interesting. So, a big, then a medium when you’re there, something that most people will do that engages and is interesting but allows those people who are really the nerds to dive in and really go to it. And I think the same is true for museums.
You have to be a little puzzling. What is that? Why is that? And go there and have it be interesting that even if I don’t know, it’s kind of fun. Let me check this out. Maybe I’ll learn something. You know, you learn stuff just by watching, you know, and there are people who aren’t going to interact. Are they still going to get stuff? Hopefully they will, but allow there to be enough content for the nerds to dive in because, you know, everybody should get to. But it does have to be something that’s accessible to everyone.
Abby: So, some of your work with exhibit experiences, really focuses on the visitor. How important for you is the visitor when you think about your strategy for design?
Trent: I think that’s the key. I mean, it doesn’t make any sense otherwise. Whatever you’re designing, if you’ve got the why, you got to know who is coming through and make sure that they feel they’re represented.
I have a pet peeve that sometimes museums kind of live in rarefied air and I’ve been in discussions in a big round table where everybody is extremely educated and really smart and coming up with really good points, but they’re missing the undereducated. And if you’re going to speak to people who maybe don’t have a master’s and a PhD, you have to have people in the room that also don’t have a master’s and a PhD so that you can speak to them. You know, if you want to speak to people as a community, you have to bring the community in.
We did a project recently and it was on black feminism. We were lucky enough that Tessellate brought us in for Women’s History Museum, and we got to create the interactives that they designed. We brought black feminists to the table to do the work because I can’t speak to anybody else’s experience but my own and I believe everybody should feel that.
Abby: Good for you. That’s fantastic that you did that.
So, let’s chat a bit about AI because you touched earlier. How do you see museums of the future? Do you think that they will be heavily designed with the use of AI? Do you think a lot of our industry will become obsolete?
Trent: Have you seen the meme that as long as clients don’t know what they want, our jobs are secure? I don’t know for sure. Yes, some jobs will become a little obsolete, but, like, AI takes all our meeting notes. How fantastic is that? If you need to create—all right, I need a picture, kind of like this, kind of like that. I personally can still see when it’s AI, and I’m like, eh, but sometimes it can give you an idea of where you’re trying to go. And maybe it can cut down some of your discussions of like, do you mean this, do you mean that, you know, and then go to the people to create it. Authentic human experiences, I think are going to be very important. I think we’ll know the difference. I’m fascinated to see where it goes. I could see where terrible things could happen, and I could also see where amazing things could happen.
Abby: Well, that sounds like the fate of human nature.
Trent: Yeah.
Abby: The good and the bad.
Brenda: Well, I want to know, Trent, what is it that you’re currently passionate about in this big world of yours? What is it that you’re just really excited to be showing up for every day?
Trent: Blue Telescope is the Rubik’s cube I get up and I work on every day. Now, I know I should have solved it by now, but it’s interesting. What’s the right blend of jobs? You know, we need to have stuff we care deeply about because that’s why we get up in the morning. But we also need to have stuff that’s fun, fast and profitable because without profit, you can’t do the stuff you care about. It’s kind of like, I’ve heard flying a helicopter, you’re constantly moving, you can’t stop your hands because you’re constantly doing it. And I feel like that.
Brenda: Well, I know what you’ve got to do next, okay, being that you are willing to keep learning and interested in constantly learning new things, and you clearly have the ability to be in endless motion, right, all the time. It is time for you, Trent Oliver, to learn how to fly a helicopter.
Trent: Oh no, no.
Abby: Yes, I second that notion.
Brenda: You heard it here first.
Abby: Yeah, yeah. Trent, up in the air.
Trent: When I was young, I was never afraid of heights. I was never afraid of rollercoasters, any of it. Now I’m like, oh no, no, no, I couldn’t. If I got four feet off the ground, I’d be scared.
Abby: I think it’s something, yes, it’s something to do with aging, and the fear starts to kick in.
Trent: Yeah. Something in your head. You get dizzy.
Abby: Another biological thing that happens as we age.
Brenda: Oh, here we go. And, well, that’s another whole podcast.
Abby: Well, Trent, I cannot thank you enough for coming on today and sharing some of your experiences.
Trent: What a fun thing.
Abby: It’s been really—I feel like I’ve met a kindred spirit.
Trent: Oh, me too. This is great.
Abby: Yeah. This has been amazing. Thank you so much.
Brenda: Thank you so much, Trent.
Trent: Thank you.
Abby: And thanks to everyone who tuned in today. If you like what you heard, subscribe for more episodes of Matters of Experience, wherever you listen to podcasts, and make sure to leave a rating and a review and share with a friend. We’ll see you next time.
Brenda: Thanks everyone!
Trent: Bye.
[Music]
Producer: Matters of Experience is produced by Lorem Ipsum Corp and recorded at Hangar Studios. Tune in next time for more fun discussions about experience design.
Being Successful While Balancing it All with Trent Oliver
The Transformative Power of Play with Anne Fullenkamp
Children’s Museum of Pittsburgh
build it – Children’s Museum of Pittsburgh Design & Consulting
learning resources – Children’s Museum of Pittsburgh
XOXO: An Exhibit About Love & Forgiveness – Children’s Museum of Pittsburgh
Flourishing in Museums: Towards a Positive Museology – 1st Edition
[Music]
Abby: Welcome to Matters of Experience, produced by Lorem Ipsum, an experience design company headquartered in New York City. Our podcast explores the creativity, innovation and psychology driving immersive experiences. If you’re new, hello and welcome, and to our regular listeners, thank you for tuning in and supporting our conversation. My name is Abigail Honor.
Brenda: And I’m Brenda Cowan.
Abby: Today we’re chatting with Anne Fullenkamp, who is the Senior Director of Creative Experiences at the Children’s Museum of Pittsburgh. She oversees the museum’s permanent exhibitions and collections and design consulting and business development programs, as well as leading their complex design teams and design philosophies about hands on learning through play to create informal learning environments, which I’m really looking forward to discussing today. And she also leads the museum’s Inclusive Design Initiative, working with cultural organizations in Pittsburgh to make the city a hub for accessibility in the arts. Anne, welcome to the show.
Anne: Thank you very much. I’m looking forward to our conversation today.
Brenda: We’re so excited to have you Anne, and I’ve got to say, I feel so privileged, mostly because I come out of children’s museums, and part of what I wanted to initiate our conversation about was about the very nature of children’s museums, and also how the path to working in a children’s museum can be varied and circuitous. You know, I started my career back in the early 1990s at Brooklyn Children’s Museum and thinking I was going to be an art teacher, and then realizing, and as I’ve told others, having this total epiphany that, oh my gosh, children’s museums, who knew? Everything seemed possible.
And since those years, those many years ago, every single decision that I’ve made in my career, no lie, has been influenced in one way or another from that initial origin in my career at Brooklyn Children’s Museum. The Pittsburgh Children’s Museum is at least as miraculous and amazing. It is a giant complex of spaces and I absolutely love visiting there.
Anne, what is it that led you to children’s museums? And I’m curious if you fell in love with them through any special ways or special means.
Anne: My origin story started in very traditional architectural design. I went to art school fully intending to be a practicing architect, and I went to graduate school. I was a practicing architect for several years. I was living and working in Baltimore, my hometown, and then I found my way to Pittsburgh. And one day I was, like we all do at the early stages of our career, I was searching job boards to see what interesting things were out there, and a job posting for an exhibit designer popped up and I literally didn’t know what that was, so I clicked on it to see, huh, I wonder what that is. And I almost took it as a design exercise to see, okay, what if I applied for this and updated my portfolio thinking about an exhibit designer job?
So, I did that, and I got a call in to come to the Children’s Museum of Pittsburgh. This was literally the first time I had ever been in a children’s museum, and it literally was a life changing moment. I ended up accepting a temporary grant funded position to design one traveling exhibit, which for me was perfect. And then, frankly, 17 years later, I’m still here.
But to your point, Brenda, I fell in love with this. I found an opportunity as a designer that was so unique because there was no other place where you’re designing and working in real time with the end user. And for me, that was a life changing moment because so often as designers, we put things out into the world and then we move on. At the Children’s Museum, I found myself on both sides. I was designing it and then I was also the end user. So, good or bad, I had to live with it. And that totally changed my thinking as a designer. And it’s just continued on and on.
Abby: What was it about the skills that you had as an architect that worked so well as you transitioned, and how was it very, very different from being an architect when you were designing for the museum?
Anne: So, the skills as an architect that I brought that fit in very well is the project management and the planning and understanding of materiality, budgets, schedules, a lot of the practical things, but even the whole design process is very useful. This idea of iterative design, where you’re going to start with a concept and then build and build and build that until you get a final design that’s fully articulated around a big idea.
And I think for me, my training as an architect, it was that big exploration, that big dreaming, where you’re pulling in influences from nature, from art, from culture or whatever. It actually didn’t matter that I didn’t have any experience in children’s museums, and in some ways that was better because I can look at each project more objectively and kind of draw from whatever this specific program or this specific space or project needs.
Another big piece is for anyone who’s been through art school or architecture school, you understand the process of critiques, where you put your heart and soul into something and you’ve stayed up all night and you’re literally bleeding. Your fingers might be bleeding from cuts, and this is, I went to architecture school 25 years ago, 30 years ago, when we were still making models.
So, yeah, you put so much into it, and then you put it up there and then somebody is going to say, I don’t like that, or why didn’t you think about this? And you need to be able to defend your ideas, but also accept the criticism and then maybe learn from somebody else. Another piece of this I always talk about is the people, often architects and designers, we’re designing with the materials and space and thinking about all these wonderful inanimate or abstract elements.
And then, yes, the user, there’s the end user, the stakeholder, whatever we’re calling them, and we interview them and their wants, wish lists are included. But at the end of the day, we talk about space, we talk about light, we talk about the materials and the aesthetics and details and create these moments that might feel great when you’re in there. It might photograph beautifully, but what happens when someone’s using it every day and they start to wear out? You might have to live with the design for ten years before you get a chance to redo it, or a gallery or something. So having to understand how to keep something fresh and new and interesting for children every day, it just amped up the responsibility of what we’re actually doing and putting a whole nother layer of personal connection with the end user, because I see it every day.
Brenda: You know, talking about the end user and talking about the people for whom we’re designing, in a children’s museum, it’s so special because everything that you are designing towards, in some ways has to do with every stage of human development. It’s so multidimensional, because we’ve got, you know, our little, teeny tiny ones right on through folks who are in their senior adult years and thinking about the whole person in designing in a really holistic fashion is something that, you know, certainly in the years that I was working with children’s museums, it was really at the heart of the matter. And that was, for me, something that was really particularly special and really one of my favorite aspects of the work. And I would love to hear what some of your absolute favorite aspects are of the work that you get to do.
Anne: First and foremost, I work with amazing people, and that does translate into the work on the floor and the things we produce because we really care. I’m lucky in that the people who choose to work at a children’s museum, frankly, I’m sure at any children’s museum—we’re nonprofits. Nobody is really in this for the money, but it’s really for a passion for some aspect of the work we do.
I have to say, I love that aspect of it, but I really do get great satisfaction in seeing a family, like you were mentioning the different ages, to see adults enjoying their time with their kids in a really unique way is very special. And to your point, yes, we’re going to see the early childhood and the kind of, the different stages of childhood development, and then you have older kids, but what about the parent, the new parent, or even the new grandparent or a caretaker?
You know, any adult who’s interacting with this child, who’s experiencing things in a new and joyful way, to see that kind of childhood joy of playing translate to an adult and get them kind of in a different headspace, they’re moments that are really special here when we see the parents just relaxing.
Abby: Can you tell us some specific examples? Because in your almost 18 years, can you? Yeah, share a few so we can understand what you’ve enjoyed.
Anne: Well, something just a couple of weeks ago I was walking through the museum, and I stopped to take a picture because we have an exhibit activity called Build It, and it’s a collection of drilled panels that you take nuts and bolts and that, you assemble them together to build different structures. And as I was walking by, I saw this amazing fort and structure, and I didn’t see any children.
I saw three adult men, and they were building and playing and having a lot of fun. And it took me a little while to find where the kids were. The kids were inside the fort, but for me, that was like, check the box because the dads were actively engaged in this creative Children’s Museum exhibit experience. Other moments, too, that are kind of these more special, quieter moments that you might not expect to find at a children’s museum, is we do have a focus on social emotional learning and our approach to that is through communication.
And we have these stations where you can write down, we call them strategies cards. That’s where parents can really communicate with one another. And every week, you know, we spend time going through and reading some of those notes. It’s really kind of gratifying to see that people take advantage of that and share their struggles. I mean, that’s another big part of, of what we believe at our museum is childhood, and raising children is not all sunshine and laughter. It’s a lot of pain and crying and anxiety and all of the stuff. And, you know, being a safe place where parents and caregivers can stage those frustrations and those feelings is another aspect that I find very gratifying.
Abby: We talk a lot on our show about beginning with audiences when you’re crafting the stories and content and exhibitions. Do you work directly with children when creating your experiences or other kinds of experts? And who’s at the table when the museum is sort of beginning or starting up a new experience?
Anne: Yeah. So, we do assemble an advisory panel, and that helps us kind of focus in on some of the bigger ideas. But one of the things we do very quickly in the process is we jump right into prototyping. We find it more useful as designers and to get everyone to loosen up in their creative process, to just make something and not necessarily so obviously connected to a topic, but just roll up your sleeves and start making something that is engaging is interesting to you and you think would be interesting to kids.
And then once we kind of have these quick prototypes, we put it out on the floor directly so our visitors can kind of respond to it. So, from that frame of mind, we kind of think about prototyping and this constant critiquing process. Let’s get it out and let’s see what they think really early, and that really helps our all of us see what’s going on, and if we’re on the right track, and then we find that sometimes we’ll figure out what the exhibit is about, actually, after we start building it.
Brenda: It sounds so dynamic. And so fun and I can imagine how stimulating it’s got to be to be a designer at your children’s museum. And we cannot have a conversation today about Pittsburgh without mentioning Fred Rogers.
Anne: Yes.
Brenda: And I can tell you, Mister Rogers’ Neighborhood, it was a huge influence in my childhood, as with so many people. I know that his work in media and with children, with families, his ethics and values of, in particular, certainly of kindness, have made a big impact on the Children’s Museum of Pittsburgh. Can you tell us about the ways in which Mister Rogers’ Neighborhood has influenced the work that the Children’s Museum does?
Anne: Absolutely. So, Fred Rogers was a big part of the founding and the opening of the Children’s Museum in 1983, and then he continued to work with the museum until his passing and was a mentor and friend of our executive director. One thing that we’re really lucky is that we as an institution got to know Fred Rogers as a man, as a person, and one of the main things, our takeaway, because Fred Rogers is with us every day at the Children’s Museum, frankly, and it is his respect for children.
That’s what we talk about. And he really never talked down to kids. And that’s something we really model now, especially when we decide and to do topics that are more like tough to talk about, like our love—we have an exhibit about love and forgiveness and about kindness and all of our emotional, social, emotional work—that you need to talk about the hard things too. And Fred Rogers has been such a great model and how you can talk about these things and really respect children as human beings.
Abby: So, talking about some of the hard stuff, though, I really want to get into the specifics. Are there any limits? Let’s start with that. Any limits at your museum or boundaries to the content that you share? I guess that’s one of our first questions and sort of what is that balance? And if you could do some specific examples of maybe some things in the past just to help the audience understand.
Anne: We do not want to prescribe or judge or tell kids or families what they should think or feel. We want to provide spaces for kids to communicate wherever they are and contextualize some things in their own way. It’s almost taking a lot of steps back, and it’s really letting the experience lead. Whatever this next step context is. And I think the best, most specific example I mentioned are love and forgiveness, XOXO: An Exhibit About Love & Forgiveness. We learned so much in the development of that, that now influences a lot of our permanent exhibits and almost our approach to exhibits in general. Because when we were first developing this exhibit, when you think about love and forgiveness very quickly in the conversation, from an adult designer point of view, you end up going down a line of personal beliefs, religion, judgments.
You know, it gets very personal very quickly. And then it can, also gets very divisive. And when I was talking about before that, we start with the experience, we kind of like took a deep breath and like, okay, what are we going to do? Because nobody wants to come to an exhibit where they feel scolded or judged or lectured to.
So that’s where we went back and started with the fun stuff or things that they were doing. And then from there we realized, this whole process that we’ve been going through, what were we doing, really doing here? We have these amazing conversations that you can have as adults that kind of ended up being, might be controversial or even like heated when were communicating.
And we as a group, we were lucky in that we trusted one another, that we could have these frank conversations. So that’s where we kind of focused in on how people communicate. And then we provided from a content point of view, we did curate and provide prompts, quotes from people we valued. We have quotes from Mahatma Gandhi, the Dalai Lama, these kind of universal understood, accepted role models. But basically, we let the visitors kind of finish the story.
Brenda: And what does that look like? Because people might argue that you know, kids may not actually really deeply understand or personally connect with some abstract, if you will, concepts such as forgiveness and you go there, but you do it through play. What does that actually look like from a design perspective? How does somebody play towards gratitude or forgiveness?
Anne: Oh, it’s funny, in some ways you create these scenarios that then would spark a conversation. So, in a literal way, when we were doing XOXO, one of the things we talked about, love and forgiveness, well, there’s balance, right, there—love is on one end or forgiveness is on the other if that’s your balance scale. So how do kids balance things?
And we created a seesaw. And in the middle, there is a ball. And the ball was half black and half white, a yin and a yang, and kids work together to create that balance. And it created behaviors where kids start to learn how to work together and have conversations and what are we doing, and if you provide the tools in the toolbox, but also like understand that the kids need to move and have different energy levels and you kind of literally put the playground in front of them, but also give them these opportunities to rest and reflect, all in the same space, all together, that’s what’s been working for us when we talk about the social emotional learning aspects.
Abby: I want to ask, just pick up on something you mentioned Anne, you talked about frank conversations with your team. It seems that, you know, sometimes we find ourselves in situations where you can’t be as frank as you like. How have you managed to curate this team around you, where you can have that quality of conversation and all leave friends in a way or have that understanding that you all understand the world differently.
Anne: Well, I think at the foundation of who we are as a children’s museum, we’re actually an art museum. We are a collecting art museum. And I think those discussions are able to be pretty open and frank, but collegial, because we all kind of approach this as artists and creators. And I think just culturally, if you kind of come into the world from an artist point of view, there’s that expectation of even being outrageous and having kind of different ideas and different perspectives.
There’s a lot of humility among all of us, because if we, we kind of take this artistic, creative approach in it and just even start conversations, it’s like, well, this is just my opinion. Art is meant for controversy and to be subjective. And I like this, and you don’t, but it’s still art and art is still worthwhile. And that kind of goes back to even the practical standpoint.
We let the prototyping process kind of be that judgy, the judgmental factor. I’m not necessarily, and again, assuming it’s not outrageously out of scope, but if you have an idea and you think this is the way to go, let’s prototype it. Let’s see what the kids say. Let’s see what the visitors say. And I think that’s where that just respect and understanding, if we’re all creatives, we’re all going to come at this from a different perspective.
Brenda: You know, Anne, the conversation that we’ve had unfold today, talking about so much respect for your audience and for kids and for families, and now you talking about the very respectful ways in which you work with your staff and work internally, it’s making me think about the recent chapter that you just wrote for the volume that I just co-edited, Flourishing in Museums, and you’ve also published, in addition to writing about flourishing in your institution, you’ve also published on the theme of empathy.
And I think that more and more, these ideas and themes are progressing as our profession moves forward. And I’d love your perspectives on flourishing, both within your institution and also through the exhibitions that you create and how you reach and work with your audiences. I’d love your perspectives on what flourishing, and empathy looks like, what strikes you as possible in terms of the profession writ large?
Anne: Well, when you, when you’re describing this in context of flourishing and empathy and what we get to do at a children’s museum, I think this is where hopefully, and I see this, where all museums are moving into this approach of not necessarily being the experts, but really being spaces where people can explore ideas. We say at our museum, and it’s a quote that I, it’s been repeated that you can’t fail museum. And just having that ability to like, see something new, have an experience with it, whether it’s a, you know, a child and you’re a parent for the first time or just personally see something that you’ve never seen before, that is kind of exciting. And just to reignite that kind of personal passion, I think is really, really important.
And I think that’s where museums, especially in this day and age, where there’s so much information that’s available. I mean, this is kind of that classic, museums used to be places that provided information, but now that that kind of the same factual information is available at our fingertips, that I think that’s where the museums can be places for experiences.
And I know we’ve been, you know, our museum, we’re looking at all these like the photo ops and are those valuable kind of experiences. But if people are finding joy in what they do, it’s a social experience. But I think that’s where they, if they can be these places of really exploring new ideas and, trying things they’ve never done before.
Again, as a children’s museum, and we’re an art museum, so we have an art studio, we have a makerspace, we have artworks, we’re working commission art and installation art all the time. It’s kind of just places. I think that’s kind of the exciting thing when I think about museums in the future as they evolve, it’s really taking a step back and leaving more blank spaces and seeing how individuals can personalize and bring themselves.
I know that’s another phrase we see a lot now, but bringing themselves to the museum experience and adding to it, and the museum doesn’t have to provide all the context. We’re not the, the source of all the culture, all the context. We might even if it is a specific theme or an idea, this is a starting point. And then really looking at our visitors as contributors. And luckily, I mean, that’s the kind of where I see us going as a children’s museum, because the point of empathy when we were talking about that, too, it’s it allows you for lots of perspectives and to see how people, other people respond to things like that.
Abby: Briefly Anne, this is out last question, so, what would you tell ten year old Anne? What advice would you give her that you know now?
Anne; Well, it’s funny because that’s a question we always ask when you come to a new meeting at the Children’s Museum. You’re asked what you like to do as a child. And inevitably we find connections to what you do now. And, you know, in that context, growing up in Baltimore, I was an only child in the 80s. You know, I had young parents.
And now that very young parents, but I spent a lot of time at our art museum. But it’s that, that open exploration and just being places and having that kind of freedom, that confidence building that I now look back and got that kind of latchkey free, the free form child rearing. I’d like to say I wouldn’t change a lot, but it’s just interesting how where I ended up, I just see that looking back at my childhood as that connection to what I do now.
So yeah, I know I’m not actually—that advice to your, to yourself, it’s, it’s like everything, it’s to have, stress less. Don’t worry about it. Trust your instincts. Because that’s one thing that I have done, been able to do is, is to to trust my gut. And that’s where by making this leap in 2006, taking this chance and trying something out and knowing that it’s, you know, it’ll be okay. And I think that’s something I got from childhood and frankly, visiting museums, and I didn’t even appreciate that at the time, but I see that now working in museums, that that’s what these spaces can be.
Abby: Thank you, Anne, for sharing your story with us, and passion for design. I think there’s probably a lot of people who were like, I’d like to go and work on Anne’s team because it sounds fantastic.
Brenda: Oh my gosh.
Abby: I want to do what Anne does.
Brenda: You’re going to get so many emails now, Anne.
Abby: It sounds like an amazing place to work. And, and thank you, yeah, so much for sharing these individual stories. I’m coming to visit, if that’s all right, Anne.
Anne: Oh, anytime. We’re open—that’s the other wonderful thing about a museum. We’re open every day.
Brenda: There you go. Oh, it’s such, it’s such a worthy visit. Absolutely.
Anne: Well, thank you both. I’ve really enjoyed this conversation.
Brenda: Thank you so much, Anne.
Abby: And thanks to everyone who tuned in today. If you like what you heard, subscribe for more episodes of Matters of Experience, wherever you listen to podcasts, make sure to leave a rating and a review and share with a friend. We’ll see you next time.
Brenda: Goodbye, everyone.
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Producer: Matters of Experience is produced by Lorem Ipsum Corp and recorded at Hangar Studios. Tune in next time for more fun discussions about experience design.
Children’s Museum of Pittsburgh
build it – Children’s Museum of Pittsburgh Design & Consulting
learning resources – Children’s Museum of Pittsburgh
XOXO: An Exhibit About Love & Forgiveness – Children’s Museum of Pittsburgh
Flourishing in Museums: Towards a Positive Museology – 1st Edition
[Music]
Abby: Welcome to Matters of Experience, produced by Lorem Ipsum, an experience design company headquartered in New York City. Our podcast explores the creativity, innovation and psychology driving immersive experiences. If you’re new, hello and welcome, and to our regular listeners, thank you for tuning in and supporting our conversation. My name is Abigail Honor.
Brenda: And I’m Brenda Cowan.
Abby: Today we’re chatting with Anne Fullenkamp, who is the Senior Director of Creative Experiences at the Children’s Museum of Pittsburgh. She oversees the museum’s permanent exhibitions and collections and design consulting and business development programs, as well as leading their complex design teams and design philosophies about hands on learning through play to create informal learning environments, which I’m really looking forward to discussing today. And she also leads the museum’s Inclusive Design Initiative, working with cultural organizations in Pittsburgh to make the city a hub for accessibility in the arts. Anne, welcome to the show.
Anne: Thank you very much. I’m looking forward to our conversation today.
Brenda: We’re so excited to have you Anne, and I’ve got to say, I feel so privileged, mostly because I come out of children’s museums, and part of what I wanted to initiate our conversation about was about the very nature of children’s museums, and also how the path to working in a children’s museum can be varied and circuitous. You know, I started my career back in the early 1990s at Brooklyn Children’s Museum and thinking I was going to be an art teacher, and then realizing, and as I’ve told others, having this total epiphany that, oh my gosh, children’s museums, who knew? Everything seemed possible.
And since those years, those many years ago, every single decision that I’ve made in my career, no lie, has been influenced in one way or another from that initial origin in my career at Brooklyn Children’s Museum. The Pittsburgh Children’s Museum is at least as miraculous and amazing. It is a giant complex of spaces and I absolutely love visiting there.
Anne, what is it that led you to children’s museums? And I’m curious if you fell in love with them through any special ways or special means.
Anne: My origin story started in very traditional architectural design. I went to art school fully intending to be a practicing architect, and I went to graduate school. I was a practicing architect for several years. I was living and working in Baltimore, my hometown, and then I found my way to Pittsburgh. And one day I was, like we all do at the early stages of our career, I was searching job boards to see what interesting things were out there, and a job posting for an exhibit designer popped up and I literally didn’t know what that was, so I clicked on it to see, huh, I wonder what that is. And I almost took it as a design exercise to see, okay, what if I applied for this and updated my portfolio thinking about an exhibit designer job?
So, I did that, and I got a call in to come to the Children’s Museum of Pittsburgh. This was literally the first time I had ever been in a children’s museum, and it literally was a life changing moment. I ended up accepting a temporary grant funded position to design one traveling exhibit, which for me was perfect. And then, frankly, 17 years later, I’m still here.
But to your point, Brenda, I fell in love with this. I found an opportunity as a designer that was so unique because there was no other place where you’re designing and working in real time with the end user. And for me, that was a life changing moment because so often as designers, we put things out into the world and then we move on. At the Children’s Museum, I found myself on both sides. I was designing it and then I was also the end user. So, good or bad, I had to live with it. And that totally changed my thinking as a designer. And it’s just continued on and on.
Abby: What was it about the skills that you had as an architect that worked so well as you transitioned, and how was it very, very different from being an architect when you were designing for the museum?
Anne: So, the skills as an architect that I brought that fit in very well is the project management and the planning and understanding of materiality, budgets, schedules, a lot of the practical things, but even the whole design process is very useful. This idea of iterative design, where you’re going to start with a concept and then build and build and build that until you get a final design that’s fully articulated around a big idea.
And I think for me, my training as an architect, it was that big exploration, that big dreaming, where you’re pulling in influences from nature, from art, from culture or whatever. It actually didn’t matter that I didn’t have any experience in children’s museums, and in some ways that was better because I can look at each project more objectively and kind of draw from whatever this specific program or this specific space or project needs.
Another big piece is for anyone who’s been through art school or architecture school, you understand the process of critiques, where you put your heart and soul into something and you’ve stayed up all night and you’re literally bleeding. Your fingers might be bleeding from cuts, and this is, I went to architecture school 25 years ago, 30 years ago, when we were still making models.
So, yeah, you put so much into it, and then you put it up there and then somebody is going to say, I don’t like that, or why didn’t you think about this? And you need to be able to defend your ideas, but also accept the criticism and then maybe learn from somebody else. Another piece of this I always talk about is the people, often architects and designers, we’re designing with the materials and space and thinking about all these wonderful inanimate or abstract elements.
And then, yes, the user, there’s the end user, the stakeholder, whatever we’re calling them, and we interview them and their wants, wish lists are included. But at the end of the day, we talk about space, we talk about light, we talk about the materials and the aesthetics and details and create these moments that might feel great when you’re in there. It might photograph beautifully, but what happens when someone’s using it every day and they start to wear out? You might have to live with the design for ten years before you get a chance to redo it, or a gallery or something. So having to understand how to keep something fresh and new and interesting for children every day, it just amped up the responsibility of what we’re actually doing and putting a whole nother layer of personal connection with the end user, because I see it every day.
Brenda: You know, talking about the end user and talking about the people for whom we’re designing, in a children’s museum, it’s so special because everything that you are designing towards, in some ways has to do with every stage of human development. It’s so multidimensional, because we’ve got, you know, our little, teeny tiny ones right on through folks who are in their senior adult years and thinking about the whole person in designing in a really holistic fashion is something that, you know, certainly in the years that I was working with children’s museums, it was really at the heart of the matter. And that was, for me, something that was really particularly special and really one of my favorite aspects of the work. And I would love to hear what some of your absolute favorite aspects are of the work that you get to do.
Anne: First and foremost, I work with amazing people, and that does translate into the work on the floor and the things we produce because we really care. I’m lucky in that the people who choose to work at a children’s museum, frankly, I’m sure at any children’s museum—we’re nonprofits. Nobody is really in this for the money, but it’s really for a passion for some aspect of the work we do.
I have to say, I love that aspect of it, but I really do get great satisfaction in seeing a family, like you were mentioning the different ages, to see adults enjoying their time with their kids in a really unique way is very special. And to your point, yes, we’re going to see the early childhood and the kind of, the different stages of childhood development, and then you have older kids, but what about the parent, the new parent, or even the new grandparent or a caretaker?
You know, any adult who’s interacting with this child, who’s experiencing things in a new and joyful way, to see that kind of childhood joy of playing translate to an adult and get them kind of in a different headspace, they’re moments that are really special here when we see the parents just relaxing.
Abby: Can you tell us some specific examples? Because in your almost 18 years, can you? Yeah, share a few so we can understand what you’ve enjoyed.
Anne: Well, something just a couple of weeks ago I was walking through the museum, and I stopped to take a picture because we have an exhibit activity called Build It, and it’s a collection of drilled panels that you take nuts and bolts and that, you assemble them together to build different structures. And as I was walking by, I saw this amazing fort and structure, and I didn’t see any children.
I saw three adult men, and they were building and playing and having a lot of fun. And it took me a little while to find where the kids were. The kids were inside the fort, but for me, that was like, check the box because the dads were actively engaged in this creative Children’s Museum exhibit experience. Other moments, too, that are kind of these more special, quieter moments that you might not expect to find at a children’s museum, is we do have a focus on social emotional learning and our approach to that is through communication.
And we have these stations where you can write down, we call them strategies cards. That’s where parents can really communicate with one another. And every week, you know, we spend time going through and reading some of those notes. It’s really kind of gratifying to see that people take advantage of that and share their struggles. I mean, that’s another big part of, of what we believe at our museum is childhood, and raising children is not all sunshine and laughter. It’s a lot of pain and crying and anxiety and all of the stuff. And, you know, being a safe place where parents and caregivers can stage those frustrations and those feelings is another aspect that I find very gratifying.
Abby: We talk a lot on our show about beginning with audiences when you’re crafting the stories and content and exhibitions. Do you work directly with children when creating your experiences or other kinds of experts? And who’s at the table when the museum is sort of beginning or starting up a new experience?
Anne: Yeah. So, we do assemble an advisory panel, and that helps us kind of focus in on some of the bigger ideas. But one of the things we do very quickly in the process is we jump right into prototyping. We find it more useful as designers and to get everyone to loosen up in their creative process, to just make something and not necessarily so obviously connected to a topic, but just roll up your sleeves and start making something that is engaging is interesting to you and you think would be interesting to kids.
And then once we kind of have these quick prototypes, we put it out on the floor directly so our visitors can kind of respond to it. So, from that frame of mind, we kind of think about prototyping and this constant critiquing process. Let’s get it out and let’s see what they think really early, and that really helps our all of us see what’s going on, and if we’re on the right track, and then we find that sometimes we’ll figure out what the exhibit is about, actually, after we start building it.
Brenda: It sounds so dynamic. And so fun and I can imagine how stimulating it’s got to be to be a designer at your children’s museum. And we cannot have a conversation today about Pittsburgh without mentioning Fred Rogers.
Anne: Yes.
Brenda: And I can tell you, Mister Rogers’ Neighborhood, it was a huge influence in my childhood, as with so many people. I know that his work in media and with children, with families, his ethics and values of, in particular, certainly of kindness, have made a big impact on the Children’s Museum of Pittsburgh. Can you tell us about the ways in which Mister Rogers’ Neighborhood has influenced the work that the Children’s Museum does?
Anne: Absolutely. So, Fred Rogers was a big part of the founding and the opening of the Children’s Museum in 1983, and then he continued to work with the museum until his passing and was a mentor and friend of our executive director. One thing that we’re really lucky is that we as an institution got to know Fred Rogers as a man, as a person, and one of the main things, our takeaway, because Fred Rogers is with us every day at the Children’s Museum, frankly, and it is his respect for children.
That’s what we talk about. And he really never talked down to kids. And that’s something we really model now, especially when we decide and to do topics that are more like tough to talk about, like our love—we have an exhibit about love and forgiveness and about kindness and all of our emotional, social, emotional work—that you need to talk about the hard things too. And Fred Rogers has been such a great model and how you can talk about these things and really respect children as human beings.
Abby: So, talking about some of the hard stuff, though, I really want to get into the specifics. Are there any limits? Let’s start with that. Any limits at your museum or boundaries to the content that you share? I guess that’s one of our first questions and sort of what is that balance? And if you could do some specific examples of maybe some things in the past just to help the audience understand.
Anne: We do not want to prescribe or judge or tell kids or families what they should think or feel. We want to provide spaces for kids to communicate wherever they are and contextualize some things in their own way. It’s almost taking a lot of steps back, and it’s really letting the experience lead. Whatever this next step context is. And I think the best, most specific example I mentioned are love and forgiveness, XOXO: An Exhibit About Love & Forgiveness. We learned so much in the development of that, that now influences a lot of our permanent exhibits and almost our approach to exhibits in general. Because when we were first developing this exhibit, when you think about love and forgiveness very quickly in the conversation, from an adult designer point of view, you end up going down a line of personal beliefs, religion, judgments.
You know, it gets very personal very quickly. And then it can, also gets very divisive. And when I was talking about before that, we start with the experience, we kind of like took a deep breath and like, okay, what are we going to do? Because nobody wants to come to an exhibit where they feel scolded or judged or lectured to.
So that’s where we went back and started with the fun stuff or things that they were doing. And then from there we realized, this whole process that we’ve been going through, what were we doing, really doing here? We have these amazing conversations that you can have as adults that kind of ended up being, might be controversial or even like heated when were communicating.
And we as a group, we were lucky in that we trusted one another, that we could have these frank conversations. So that’s where we kind of focused in on how people communicate. And then we provided from a content point of view, we did curate and provide prompts, quotes from people we valued. We have quotes from Mahatma Gandhi, the Dalai Lama, these kind of universal understood, accepted role models. But basically, we let the visitors kind of finish the story.
Brenda: And what does that look like? Because people might argue that you know, kids may not actually really deeply understand or personally connect with some abstract, if you will, concepts such as forgiveness and you go there, but you do it through play. What does that actually look like from a design perspective? How does somebody play towards gratitude or forgiveness?
Anne: Oh, it’s funny, in some ways you create these scenarios that then would spark a conversation. So, in a literal way, when we were doing XOXO, one of the things we talked about, love and forgiveness, well, there’s balance, right, there—love is on one end or forgiveness is on the other if that’s your balance scale. So how do kids balance things?
And we created a seesaw. And in the middle, there is a ball. And the ball was half black and half white, a yin and a yang, and kids work together to create that balance. And it created behaviors where kids start to learn how to work together and have conversations and what are we doing, and if you provide the tools in the toolbox, but also like understand that the kids need to move and have different energy levels and you kind of literally put the playground in front of them, but also give them these opportunities to rest and reflect, all in the same space, all together, that’s what’s been working for us when we talk about the social emotional learning aspects.
Abby: I want to ask, just pick up on something you mentioned Anne, you talked about frank conversations with your team. It seems that, you know, sometimes we find ourselves in situations where you can’t be as frank as you like. How have you managed to curate this team around you, where you can have that quality of conversation and all leave friends in a way or have that understanding that you all understand the world differently.
Anne: Well, I think at the foundation of who we are as a children’s museum, we’re actually an art museum. We are a collecting art museum. And I think those discussions are able to be pretty open and frank, but collegial, because we all kind of approach this as artists and creators. And I think just culturally, if you kind of come into the world from an artist point of view, there’s that expectation of even being outrageous and having kind of different ideas and different perspectives.
There’s a lot of humility among all of us, because if we, we kind of take this artistic, creative approach in it and just even start conversations, it’s like, well, this is just my opinion. Art is meant for controversy and to be subjective. And I like this, and you don’t, but it’s still art and art is still worthwhile. And that kind of goes back to even the practical standpoint.
We let the prototyping process kind of be that judgy, the judgmental factor. I’m not necessarily, and again, assuming it’s not outrageously out of scope, but if you have an idea and you think this is the way to go, let’s prototype it. Let’s see what the kids say. Let’s see what the visitors say. And I think that’s where that just respect and understanding, if we’re all creatives, we’re all going to come at this from a different perspective.
Brenda: You know, Anne, the conversation that we’ve had unfold today, talking about so much respect for your audience and for kids and for families, and now you talking about the very respectful ways in which you work with your staff and work internally, it’s making me think about the recent chapter that you just wrote for the volume that I just co-edited, Flourishing in Museums, and you’ve also published, in addition to writing about flourishing in your institution, you’ve also published on the theme of empathy.
And I think that more and more, these ideas and themes are progressing as our profession moves forward. And I’d love your perspectives on flourishing, both within your institution and also through the exhibitions that you create and how you reach and work with your audiences. I’d love your perspectives on what flourishing, and empathy looks like, what strikes you as possible in terms of the profession writ large?
Anne: Well, when you, when you’re describing this in context of flourishing and empathy and what we get to do at a children’s museum, I think this is where hopefully, and I see this, where all museums are moving into this approach of not necessarily being the experts, but really being spaces where people can explore ideas. We say at our museum, and it’s a quote that I, it’s been repeated that you can’t fail museum. And just having that ability to like, see something new, have an experience with it, whether it’s a, you know, a child and you’re a parent for the first time or just personally see something that you’ve never seen before, that is kind of exciting. And just to reignite that kind of personal passion, I think is really, really important.
And I think that’s where museums, especially in this day and age, where there’s so much information that’s available. I mean, this is kind of that classic, museums used to be places that provided information, but now that that kind of the same factual information is available at our fingertips, that I think that’s where the museums can be places for experiences.
And I know we’ve been, you know, our museum, we’re looking at all these like the photo ops and are those valuable kind of experiences. But if people are finding joy in what they do, it’s a social experience. But I think that’s where they, if they can be these places of really exploring new ideas and, trying things they’ve never done before.
Again, as a children’s museum, and we’re an art museum, so we have an art studio, we have a makerspace, we have artworks, we’re working commission art and installation art all the time. It’s kind of just places. I think that’s kind of the exciting thing when I think about museums in the future as they evolve, it’s really taking a step back and leaving more blank spaces and seeing how individuals can personalize and bring themselves.
I know that’s another phrase we see a lot now, but bringing themselves to the museum experience and adding to it, and the museum doesn’t have to provide all the context. We’re not the, the source of all the culture, all the context. We might even if it is a specific theme or an idea, this is a starting point. And then really looking at o